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Autarchs have 3+ and fleet Pheonix lords have 2+ and fleet

The thing is, in Craftwolrd eldars case it's 5+ because they're equipping guardians, they're not going to waste whatever sturdier suits they have on guardians. The sturdier suits they have are for the aspect warriors (4+), while the relic's of these suits are 3+, Such as exarchs and autarchs. The reapers armour is thicker so they can brace and fire their guns without recoil affecting their shot(also because they're not meant to move), while the scorpions(relying on stealth) and the spiders(relying on warping) don't need the extra speed conferred in the thinner armour. It's also noted in the codex that eldar prefer forcefields over heavier armour, which explains the lack of thicker armour further.

IMO in reality guardian armour, described as a body suit that hardens when struck with force, would repel bullets to a degree. The thinf to remember is that a 5+ amour save is blown apart by a bolter, which is pretty much an automatic grenade launcher, it's far more powerful than our assault rifles of today, even a lasgun is far more powerful than most(IMO) and that's what it take to blast through it.

terranarc wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

terranarc wrote:@people who're going FLUFF DOESN'T EQUAL TT STATS MAN
Yes I'm well aware of this. In fluff, bolters go right through power armor. What concerns me though is that even in the fluff, eldar supertechnology is not represented.
My point though, is that "heavy" armor is subjective. A medieval fullplate was considered heavy but the protection it offers is negligible in the modern world. A "medium(?)" kevlar vest from modern times would've rendered a person completely immune to arrows.
So what I'm saying is, you can't say that because eldar dislike heavy armor, they only use thin light armor and subsequently suck like your average guardsmen in half carapace or something. This assumes that the 2 races are of equal technology, which I'm pretty sure is not true (ignoring stuff form the golden age like mr. calgar's gloves).
The aesthetic part makes sense but to sacrifice complete function for fashion is a bit much, no? Also, you'd figure that there'd be eldar scientists who'd improve their wargear over time. Wait a minute... were there ever any eldar scientists?

You're confusing two concepts: level of technological advancement with military doctrine. The two don't necessarily correspond. Being more technologically advanced doesn't mean everything is superior. In WW2 for example, the US had a bunch of technological advancements on the Japanese, yet we still couldn't make reliable torpedoes. The Japanese on the other hand lacked radar technology amongst other things, yet they had developed torpedoes that traveled 3 times farther at 150% the speed and 125% the payload of American torpedoes, and better yet they were harder to detect visually. Its the same thing here, Eldar technology is superior in a lot of aspects, that doesn't necessarily mean that every aspect is superior. I would say there armor is superior given the weight to protection ratio, but that doesn't necessarily mean that its going to provide MORE protection. The weight-protection tradeoff is a very real one that is debated the world over even today.

True true but the difference in technology between the US and Japan at the time isn't remotely near the gap between the imperium and eldar. I mean, seriously literally compare the 2. Placing our world into 40k's, while we were fighting WW2, they were fighting the necrons. So while the US has difficulty producing torpedoes to compete with the japanese, the Eldar were having difficulty competing with necron lightning guns with their wraithbone constructs.
This is the difference I speak of.

Yes, but just because they were more technologically advanced earlier does not mean they maintained that advantage. Taking the torpedo example further, the Japanese Maritime Self Defense Force today uses a torpedo based on the American Mk 48 ADCAP, despite the advantage that it previously enjoyed in torpedo technology. More importantly, the Russians during WW2 used lend-lease American and British torps, as well as older ineffective ww1 designs. Today they are the only country in the world to have developed super-cavitating torpedo (barring the Iranians possibly, uncomfirmed) American attempts to develop these torpedoes have met with failure (unless we pulled something off and classified it). What I'm trying to say is that the Russians are the Imperium, the US is the Eldar, and Japan are the Necrons. While we were fighting WW2 the Russians (Humans) had little to no ability to produce torpedoes, the Americans (Eldar) were having difficulty competing with the Japanese torpedoes (Necron lightning guns/constructs). Today, 70 years later (tens of thousands of years later), the Russians (Imperium) have developed a superior torpedo (armor), that the Americans and Japanese (Eldar/Necrons) cannot compete with. The Necron part doesn't make sense, but thats irrelevant and was only included for wholeness of analogy, although with the rumors of going to a 4+ save it may be true.

Daba wrote:WD127 says concerning Aspect Armour

WD127 wrote:This unique armour is the equivalent of Power Armour.

In reference to what exactly? Certain Eldar Aspect Armor (Warp Spiders/Striking Scorpions) IS the equivalent. In any case, issue 127 was still very much in the RT era. Back then Eldar could take bolters and Space Marines could take Shuriken weapons. I'm not sure we can exactly trust that as a fluff source.

MikZor wrote:Autarchs have 3+ and fleet Pheonix lords have 2+ and fleet

They're exceptional warriors (all Autarchs have trained with multiple Aspect shrines, and the Phoenix Lords need no further comment), and thus get treated slightly differently. Exarchs also get 3+ and fleet (assuming that their charges are fleet) because they're considered to be superior warriors. But the troops that they're leading don't get that. Scorpions, Reapers, and Spiders all have 3+ but lose fleet. Of course, given the change to Fleet in 5th edition, the only one of those three that would actually care about having Fleet in 5th edition are the Scorpions.

My point still stands - Eldar in theory trade an inferior armor save for superior mobility. In practice, they get screwed over by a rules change and gain an "advantage" that only Banshees really care about.

Eumerin wrote:My point still stands - Eldar in theory trade an inferior armor save for superior mobility. In practice, they get screwed over by a rules change and gain an "advantage" that only Banshees really care about.

This was my point.... did you read my paragraph the warriors with the 3+ don't need mobility.

But in game since everyone can run it pretty much makes all troops the same speed regardless of armour, so it was transferred right at the point of writing (4th ed) but 5th ed came out later and now everyman and his dog can run. All it means is that now my guardians can assault after running woohoo!!! (please note the sarcasm)

Originally, half (3/6) aspects had 3+ saves, 2/6 had 4+ and only Swooping Hawks had 5+.

At this time, Power Armour was 4+ (and the same book was the one with the articles about power armour up to and including Mk7, so not only beaky armour).

The fluff for the armour has not changed.

In 2nd ed, 2 new Aspects were introduced: Warp Spiders (3+) and Shining Spears (also 3+), pushing the proportion of high armour up more.

The original intention was Aspect Armour was roughly slightly better than Power Armour in terms of defence except where flight was needed.

Daba wrote:Originally, half (3/6) aspects had 3+ saves, 2/6 had 4+ and only Swooping Hawks had 5+.

At this time, Power Armour was 4+ (and the same book was the one with the articles about power armour up to and including Mk7, so not only beaky armour).

The fluff for the armour has not changed.

In 2nd ed, 2 new Aspects were introduced: Warp Spiders (3+) and Shining Spears (also 3+), pushing the proportion of high armour up more.

The original intention was Aspect Armour was roughly slightly better than Power Armour in terms of defence except where flight was needed.

A good explanation if I've ever seen one!

Daba wrote:In 2nd ed, 2 new Aspects were introduced: Warp Spiders (3+) and Shining Spears (also 3+), pushing the proportion of high armour up more.

While Warp Spiders wear heavier armor, Shining Spears get their better save due to their bikes. Guardians on Jet Bikes also have a 3+ save - and we know that they're not wearing heavy armor...

Eumerin wrote:

Daba wrote:In 2nd ed, 2 new Aspects were introduced: Warp Spiders (3+) and Shining Spears (also 3+), pushing the proportion of high armour up more.

While Warp Spiders wear heavier armor, Shining Spears get their better save due to their bikes. Guardians on Jet Bikes also have a 3+ save - and we know that they're not wearing heavy armor...

No, in 2nd edition they have a 3+ save separately. The bike was considered a vehicle back then.

2nd Edition was a long time ago.

Yet the fluff remains the same.
Very good explanaion daba, +5 to you. I guess it's more than just a case of game balance. Only spessh marheens can have both power armor and 3+. And drag queens of battle too.

Take flintlock weapons compaired to the longbow.

A skilled archer could put 3 arrows in the air before the first hit the floor over a fair distance. It was also very accuate.

A well drilled soldier could fire 4 musket shots in under 60 seconds. The shots would not be accuate so you would have to get in the same range as a longbow.

The only reason muskets caught on is because you could thrust it into the hands of any man woman or child and they could use it. A longbow took years to master and needed a great deal of upper body strength.

So history has taught us that some advancements arn't better than what we had but they might be easier to live with.