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Empchild wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:I think it looks fine. It's funny that people pull out schematics on armor for this, but buy up GW vehicles like they're made of oxy.

Shuma when it comes too historicals it is all about perfect details. It is not sci-fi or fantasy where you have lots of room too add in what you want fluff wise and can explain away something, it is a representation of a person and the garb they wore during the time period. It's no different then reeinactors and what they do as they go so far too have a properly made replica of a canteen, or only smoke from a pipe because that's what the soldiers would have used back when. I sported a Samurai army at last years WAB tourneys at adepticon (suprisingly the only one) and personally am a HUGE fan of ancient Japan and the way of the Bushido. So when I pick and choose my historicals I want nothing but authenticity when I play because I am recreating a battle from back then and I don't want a machinegun, or a medival helment on my models.

I'm sure in their thousand year history a samurai wore a shorter shoulder pad at some point. "Accuracy" is only really meaningful when you have an era or specific force to target. As it is this is a pretty generic looking "samurai" to me, and considering your own point about the padding and the general level of accuracy this model has I don't see the big issue. It didn't conform to wikipedias schematic for armor. Samurai armor didn't really have a national standard and it's design and use sometimes changed dramatically within single generations.

Not exactly.

What I'm saying is if WGF makes a lazily-researched, historically inaccurate kit, then I can only make one acceptable model out of it: WGF's half-assed interpretation of a samurai. It only works for their imaginary world, and as I have no interest in their imaginary world it's useless to me.

If WGF makes a well-researched, reasonably authentic kit, then I can use it for what they want, or I can use it for what I want. It serves a purpose, and they might get a crack at my money.

Well theres another render. Still not too convinced

http://www.wargamesfactory.com/announcements/3d-samurai-preview-part-2

We will posting preview of Samurai holding Yari next!

We expect the box set to contain 25 Samurai Figures. The armament will consist of Katana, Wakizashi and Yari. All will be armored with separate torsos, heads and legs. Arms, at the time of this posting, will have the weapon molded to the hand though that could change. Options for unit leaders will be included and some of the heads will be bare and a few may have face masks; all will have the option for Sashimono (back banners).

Standard bearers and musicians will be found in our upcoming Ashigaru set (which, at the time of this post, will have 30-Ashigaru in armor and armed with either Yari, Yumi or Teppo [spear, bow or Arquebus]). Other sets planned in this range are Samurai Cavalry (12-figures) and a Samurai Lord with Retinue (6-figures). All sets, at the time of this post, will retail for $19.95 USD. Tentative release date is October/November 2011 for the Samurai.

We are doing final tweaks on the sculpts and we would like all feedback to be directed to our home page at the link provided so we can take into account any corrections or ideas from those interested in posting constructive criticism. Mold cutting will probably start at the end of next week.

JOHIRA wrote:Not exactly.

What I'm saying is if WGF makes a lazily-researched, historically inaccurate kit, then I can only make one acceptable model out of it: WGF's half-assed interpretation of a samurai. It only works for their imaginary world, and as I have no interest in their imaginary world it's useless to me.

If WGF makes a well-researched, reasonably authentic kit, then I can use it for what they want, or I can use it for what I want. It serves a purpose, and they might get a crack at my money.

What is historically innacurate about the design?

JOHIRA wrote:Not exactly.

What I'm saying is if WGF makes a lazily-researched, historically inaccurate kit, then I can only make one acceptable model out of it: WGF's half-assed interpretation of a samurai. It only works for their imaginary world, and as I have no interest in their imaginary world it's useless to me.

If WGF makes a well-researched, reasonably authentic kit, then I can use it for what they want, or I can use it for what I want. It serves a purpose, and they might get a crack at my money.

No... you can use WGF's 'lazily-researched historically inaccurate kit' to make what they want or what you want to. The difference is that what they want is a 'lazily-researched historically inaccurate kit' instead of a 'well-researched reasonably authentic kit'. Either way you can use it to make reasonably suitable Fantasy/Sci-Fi samurai...

chaos0xomega wrote:
The difference is that what they want is a 'lazily-researched historically inaccurate kit' instead of a 'well-researched reasonably authentic kit'. Either way you can use it to make reasonably suitable Fantasy/Sci-Fi samurai...

So then why advertise said kit as historical then? Shouldnt it be called fantasy samurai or something?

Also you're saying the first sentence as if they should be proud of it

Shuma I know you usually go into the off topic forum and start arguements but please don't do that here. If you go back and read you will see I already said what you just tried too use as an arguement against me. All I did was say why historicals need too be acurate. In this case its just a bad model design and they would need too fix the shirt a lot better if they wanted too go no shoulder pads. The reason being is that they wouldhave sowed into the shirts themselves because they needed it for deflection. Samurai armor was made from hardend leather pieces so it was very flexible.

Well anyways maybe if we bombard their website enough (again), they'll change it

I think, the second rendering is a major improvement.

Kroothawk wrote:I think, the second rendering is a major improvement.

agreed

The second one is better, but that doesn't make me feel better. I don't want to buy a box of models in which some of them are sculpted by someone who doesn't understand human anatomy. The first preview looks like an artist's model in a costume.

They look pretty good to me. Unlike their previous abominations, these are models I would be willing to buy, if I was planning on making the right kind of army.

I don't see how anyone can say that is good? It is almost like I am lloking at a different model to everyone else. The thighs are wrong - rotate the model and look from all angles; look at the arm joint to the sword wielding arm and compare it to the placement of other arm - funky jonts. Is that me or or those feet both right feet!! Anyhoo, this is a plain lacking in detail sculpt and doesn't do justice the the samurai armor i have seen in person. It is a pale imitation.

Funky joints probably because they're trying to do multipart arms

Multipart works for say chainmail vikings but I highly doubt it'll look all that good with samurais

kenshin620 wrote:Well theres another render. Still not too convinced

http://www.wargamesfactory.com/announcements/3d-samurai-preview-part-2

The new one is better, but it still has some problems. He appears to be wearing a western style breast plate now instead of a proper o-yoroi do. I'm also skeptical that that very thin crest will survive the molding process. It makes me fear we'll end up with chunky add-ons like on the GW High Elf Silver Helm helmets.

Also, it appears Mr. Shouty Samurai never learned how to properly fold his hakama and has lost all the pleats in them. Shame.

Absolutionis wrote:Blame anime.

anime has nothing to do with it, lazy researchers and unimaginative sculptors are the problem, comments like that just reak of stupidity and attempts to flame a popular genre in a place where there is guaranteed to be fans

I would only use these as fillers at most for a unit, with the main outer parts of a unit being perry models, but being wgf I'd not like to bother anyway really, its nice they try, but if they aren't gonna try hard enough to be half assed then why bother at all

Stella Cadente wrote:

Absolutionis wrote:Blame anime.

anime has nothing to do with it, lazy researchers and unimaginative sculptors are the problem, comments like that just reak of stupidity and attempts to flame a popular genre in a place where there is guaranteed to be fans

Hes just referring to the fact that in a lot of animes, they tend to over exaggerate or misinterpret the power of a katana

Just like how Scandinavians tend to over exaggerate the greatness of vikings

kenshin620 wrote:

Stella Cadente wrote:

Absolutionis wrote:Blame anime.

anime has nothing to do with it, lazy researchers and unimaginative sculptors are the problem, comments like that just reak of stupidity and attempts to flame a popular genre in a place where there is guaranteed to be fans

Hes just referring to the fact that in a lot of animes, they tend to over exaggerate or misinterpret the power of a katana

Just like how Scandinavians tend to over exaggerate the greatness of vikings

well its a sword that can cut through over a dozen 50-cal bullets fired at it......quite literally as well as it has been proven, so some exaggeration should be allowed

Thats why i dont like historical miniatures. I want miniatures who look cool, not acurate, and that is just a matter of taste.

I dont liked that first render, exactly for the shoulder pads/pauldrons. The new one is good enogh. Obviously i will use it for fantasy games, or sci-fi/steam punk conversions, if i ever use them...

Looking forward to seeing what the final product looks like, as I've been looking for plastic Samurai kits to help fill out my L5r collection.

At one point the Vikings conquered England and most of Europe, sailed to Constantinople, and discovered Iceland, Greenland and North America.....I think their awesomeness is well deserved.

Did anyone see the Viking vs. Samurai episode of Deadliest Warrior? Or Samurai vs Spartan? Katana's were useless against chainmail and heavy armor....

Not saying that vikings arent great, just like katanas. Its just that a lot of Scandinavian people I bump into tend to always remind me that they have viking blood in their veins. Heck I remember seeing on the sign of a town hall once in texas saying "Viking ancestry celebration day"

General Hobbs wrote:
Did anyone see the Viking vs. Samurai episode of Deadliest Warrior?

Its best not to talk about that show. Lets just say that beyond seeing people beat each other up, the testing methods are way too flawed

I left the following comment on the "Part 2" page:


Looking great.

Not sure about the face. Probably supposed to be covered by a mask - but I cannot see the ridge below the eyes.

--

It would be nice if your renders could show the actual depth of detail planned.
As pointed out in the other thread, detail has to be exaggerated when in 28 mm scale - and I cannot understand why you insist on previewing details that never will be possible to recreate in plastic.
It doesn't make the mini looking better - it makes the whole point of a preview rather useless (not showing how the actual minis will look).

Potential buyers want to be able to judge how hard it will be to paint lacing on 100+ miniatures...

--

Hopefully the rest of the samurai line will not have drawn swords as these are more "weapons of peace" than used extensively in war. For the chosen period I would go for the long spear (and musket) as the weapon of choice - especially considering that you would want to sell large units.

--

Nit-picking:
As pointed out in the other thread by numerous poster. Katana scabbards (if thrusted into the belt instead of hung in cords, tachi style) really should be carried edge up.

Having said that. This miniature is actually an exception to both cases mentioned above...

The Samurai in the render is drawing and cutting in one motion (Iai-style) and thus should have the scabbard twisted edge out during the draw - which is the very reason he is holding the scabbard in the first place...

To understand, imagine the shortest line from sword tip to scabbard opening. The sword should fit right in, without need to adjust the angle of neither sword nor scabbard.

Directly after the draw the Samurai will readjust the scabbard (edge up) and release it (no point in holding the scabbard while fighting...).

---

Making Samurai miniatures for historical wargamers will not be easy - but if you listen and adapt to the suggestions you might have found a gold mine.

Remember that Samurai battles were huge, often fielding around hundred thousand warriors, then multiply with thousands of wargamers...


---- SUGGESTION ----

Get the Japanese (with English text) book:
"The History of Japanese Armor [Volume 2]", available from http://onmilitarymatters.com and others.
There you will also find a lot of suitable poses. It is a gold mine for a miniature designer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
... and this on the "Part 1" page.


>Wargames Factory:
>... Our sources ... specify that when in armor, the Samurai carried the Katana blade down ..."

No, you have misunderstood the info.

Re-read your sources and look closely at the pictures. You will learn about *the difference between a tachi mount and a katana mount*.

Although both holds a samurai sword. The former (tachi) is indeed carried edge down - but is also *always slung*, never trust through the belt.

If the sword is in a katana mount (plain and without mounts - as in the picture) the scabbard was/is always edge up. Even when in armour.

Also, Turnbull's books are not the best of sources - especially as they tend to focus on the most spectacular of armour.

Stella Cadente wrote:well its a sword that can cut through over a dozen 50-cal bullets fired at it......quite literally as well as it has been proven, so some exaggeration should be allowed

...and this is why I blame anime (and YouTube) for all the "internet experts" that revolve around anything Japanese.

It's not the fact that it's a "katana" that slices the bullets in that famous YouTube clip. It's just plain physics and modern craftsmanship. Mythbusters even showed a bullet being split on a standard old-style axe.

The fact of the matter is, katanas are "cool" because of anime. Therefore, there are a lot of anime-lovers on the internet that go out of their way to research this fabled weapon and verify their opinion on why it's the best weapon ever. By extension, samurai fit here as well. Whenever something comes up regarding samurai or katanas, it's treated with tremendous amounts of scrutiny if anything goes against what is "historically" correct by the standards of such armchair experts.

Absolutionis wrote:[... katanas ...

Yes.
The best katana were/are simply a very well balanced sword made with great care using the best material and technique available at that time.

The same goes for the modern myth "ninja" - where peoples imagination is mixed with the urge to make money (from "descendants of ninja"-self proclaimed masters - i.e. Hatsumi and others, to Japanese tourist industry - claiming Iga and Koge provinces to be "ninja" and even historicans wanting to make a quick buck - i.e. Turnbull...).

The sad truth is: "ninja" never existed.
Obviously the term did - referring to sneaky tactics and special ops...
... but the whole concept of black clad super martial artists equipped with standardized "ninja"-gear and living in "ninja"-villages is absurd.
Reading historical Japanese text you will find references to tengu, kappa, rokurokubi, oni etc. - but not ninja

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As for the real topic, I have just posted a new suggestion on the WF forum:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you look at this range (54 mm) you will get an idea on what historical wargamers are hoping you will provide in 28 mm (and multi part).

http://www.firstlegionltd.com/54mmsamurai.aspx

-----------------------

As most wargamers will field a lot more ashigaru units than samurai, the two most important figure types for your upcoming range are the ashigaru with yari (walking, running, standing and kneeling) and the ashigaru with musket (walking, running, standing, kneeling - reloading, aiming, at ease).

Note that by getting the basic positions right you could use the same body to both spearmen and riflemen. Especially since spearmen tended to turn left side front when holding the spear in an offensive stance - having the same pose as riflemen.
Also, both musket and spear was held with the right hand when not in action.

Boils down to (suggested contents of an Ashigaru box of 10):

2 walking bodies
2 running bodies (left shoulder front)
2 kneeling bodies (right knee to ground)
1 standing body (relaxed, chest front)
3 standing bodies (legs wide, left shoulder front)

10 heads with jingasa helmet
5 heads with head band
5 heads with other type of helmet

2 arms with musket resting on shoulder (guard, march)
2 arms with musket at hip level (walking, running)
2 arms with musket reloading
4 arms with musket firing

2 arms with spear resting on shoulder (march)
2 arms with spear resting on ground (at ease, guard)
2 arms with spear tip raised (walking, running, etc.)
4 arms with spear trusting, left hand front

10 small sashimono flags
1 larger banner resting on ground, held by arm
1 cartridge box held by arms
2 wooden mantlets

-------------------

Keep up the good work!

The second render is definitely an improvement.

I did once vow that if I ever did horde guard it would be a "kurasowa" (sp?) force, with each platoon color coded, and each special weapon marked by a back banner. Wouldn't cost that much at WGF prices if they do a box of musket guys.

General Hobbs wrote:At one point the Vikings conquered England and most of Europe, sailed to Constantinople, and discovered Iceland, Greenland and North America.....I think their awesomeness is well deserved.

Well, not most of Europe. But in Eastern Europe they formed a ruling class called the Rus and an Empire called Russia. That's why many are still blond there.

kendoka wrote:

As most wargamers will field a lot more ashigaru units than samurai, the two most important figure types for your upcoming range are the ashigaru with yari (walking, running, standing and kneeling) and the ashigaru with musket (walking, running, standing, kneeling - reloading, aiming, at ease).

Note that by getting the basic positions right you could use the same body to both spearmen and riflemen. Especially since spearmen tended to turn left side front when holding the spear in an offensive stance - having the same pose as riflemen.
Also, both musket and spear was held with the right hand when not in action.

Boils down to (suggested contents of an Ashigaru box of 10):

kestral wrote:I did once vow that if I ever did horde guard it would be a "kurasowa" (sp?) force, with each platoon color coded, and each special weapon marked by a back banner. Wouldn't cost that much at WGF prices if they do a box of musket guys.

Well I already mentioned that they announced they're making ashigaru. But we havent seen anything yet.

Standard bearers and musicians will be found in our upcoming Ashigaru set (which, at the time of this post, will have 30-Ashigaru in armor and armed with either Yari, Yumi or Teppo [spear, bow or Arquebus]).

The Dwarf Wolf wrote:Thats why i dont like historical miniatures. I want miniatures who look cool, not acurate, and that is just a matter of taste.

Different strokes for different folks. One of the things that is gradually pushing me into historicals and away from fantasy/sci-fi minis (though I haven't quite taken the plunge yet) is that too often fantasy/sci-fi minis, in their attempt to look cool, go over the top. Sculptors are constantly trying to outdo past models and make new models more and more epic, and you often see cases where the model itself gets lost in all the bling.

Take the recent Golfag Maneater for example:


This is a very good model, but he's just so covered in bits and trinkets that the eye doesn't know where to look. Now look at Malagor the Dark Omen:



This is a much worse model but suffers from the overly "cool" factor even more. I'm a beastman army collector, and it was a good month after he first came out before I even noticed he had wings- that's how covered with pointless trinkets he is. I thought he just had a scraggly cape. And wings are a rather central aspect of his character. Sculptors put all these details on hero models to make them stand out from heavily-decorated RaF. And as they keep trying to out-"cool" past models the problem seems to get worse and worse for some designers. My examples are all from GW here, but I think Privateer Press suffers from the same problem. As Yahtzee says, it's like the designer started drawing and never f ing stopped.

More and more, I'm liking miniatures that have a simple silhouette. You can tell exactly what they are supposed to be at a glance. They don't have to be cool individually, because their unit will be cool when they're all together. As elites, samurai are already pretty blinged-out. But they have a very distinct silhouette that has been well-recorded in history. They don't need help to be "cool".