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The DA player pool is particularly small, which makes that a less instructive data point.

Nice to see Jawaballs sanguinor winning best single mini!

Blackmoor wrote:

What you are saying is partly true. Alex Fennel played Deathwing and went 7-1. The Dark Angels scored 23-17 and without him they would have scored 16-16.

But I doubt that even a very good CSM player can score well with that army.

I totally disagree. If Alex had played with his pink CSM I'm sure he would have gone somewhere in the same neighborhood of 7-1 or 6-2 just like he stomped all over people at the Throne of Skulls. Similarly, I'm sure if Centurian99 was there with his Daemons, he too would have gone 7-1 or 6-2.

You're not likely to win tournaments like this with those armies because there's a few really bad match-ups, which is why people flock away from those codexes and towards more reliable fair like Grey Knights, but there is absolutely no doubt that good players playing those armies would dramatically have changed the W/L record of those books in this tournament and then people would be singing a different tune.

Again: results from one tournament (or even a few tournaments) cannot possibly tell you that a particular codex is definitively weak/strong because the data doesn't separate player skill and army list composition (as well as match-ups, bad luck, etc) out of the mix and the sample size is way to small to overcome those essentially random factors.

The problem with CSM is not a matchup problem like 'Nids or Daemons have, it's because nearly every unit in the book is inefficiently costed.

willydstyle wrote:The problem with CSM is not a matchup problem like 'Nids or Daemons have, it's because nearly every unit in the book is inefficiently costed.

No the problem is that there are very few builds and they are all boring.

whitedragon wrote:

willydstyle wrote:The problem with CSM is not a matchup problem like 'Nids or Daemons have, it's because nearly every unit in the book is inefficiently costed.

No the problem is that there are very few builds and they are all boring.

Don't worry. I'm sure next Codex will contain Chaos Razorback w/ Inferno bolts for 40 points. That will put Chaos back to map again.

The issue is---Null Zone and Lash are both useful (and frequently taken) powers. They are not taken specifically for Chaos Daemons--but do very well against it when the other player gets a bad match up.

As a Daemon and Marine player---I would guess (in my experience) the frequency of Null Zone/Lash is very high. And when you, as a Daemon player, drop down against a Marine list with a Null Zone Libby riding around in a LR--well, it's going to be a tough match up.

Clauss wrote:Darth, really?
You just think of counter comps for a daemon army? That is a great argument to say vanilla marines and chaos marines are better than daemons.
I can wipe the floor of jump pack BA, or mephiston with m y daemon army, so my daemons are better than BA, cool. I can beat a deathwing army with ease, k cool. Daemons can beat SW armies that sit there and shoot, I can beat foot eldar. Okay my codex is now better than all those codexs....
Wait, this idea of how to prove which codex is better is horrible...Yeah, bad idea...

Btw Congratulations on Dash for winning best sportsman. Winning best general, best overall, and best sportsman is quite an accomplishment for 2011. It shows how well rounded of a player you are. Also big congrats to Gabe Dobkin for his Cobra themed army, I saw it at Bolter Beach and it was beautiful.

Surprising that Grey Knights were already most numerous army? Was there a lot of "counts-as" GK's?

out of all of the GK armies i saw, there were none that were "counts as".

Mike ran a great event and the players were great as well. Everyone brought painted armies and played there A game. None of my wins were walk overs and none of my losses were blow outs. Every game was a joy.

The highlights of the tourny for me were:

-Meeting with many many cool people.
-seeing beautiful armies
-getting a couple of wins in the invitational
-going top 10 (7th) in the overall rankings out of 200+
-having my Master of the Forge make it to the finals for "best frankenstein"

The GT as a whole was a blast but winning the bar crawl with my crew was the main reason I went. That Dirty CEO drink can rot in hell though.