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malfred wrote:

They made the Battle Engines something you have to build around, not something
that completely replaces your 9pt 'jacks.

I hear ya--however what makes great units great is how utilitarian they are right? Rowdy seems like he can always produce and I can at least get him stuck in--Battle Engines getting shot with CRAs makes me a sad panda.

Again though, I've played all of one game with it--and eNemo outside of Polarity Shield doesn't exactly gel. It certainly killed some things too...however I think a Jr. with shield will be a necessity. I'm starting to take OPs topic OT--so I'll shut up and make a thread!

Privateer is doing a good job keeping new units balanced in MkII. The Wrath units are different, but not noticably better once point costs are taken into account.

Anytime a game system puts out new units- theres a 'OMG thats so broken!!' knee jerk reaction. Once the new models get some table time and people figure out their strengths and weaknesses they become successful, like Karchev, or meh- like Darius(or Zerkova if we need an extreme example).

I still like my prime/primal models, and Im pretty sure in any faction I play there will be these core units somewhere in my list.

Except Ret and my minions

malfred wrote:

CPTPromotable wrote:Is that...is that egg on my face? hot diggity dang i believe that's egg on my face!

Goes to show, always check your facts first! thanks malfred. still, lots of good units in the prime/al books

Nah, no one threw egg.

It's just that I knew they kept Prime mk2 models the same aside from
the new 'jacks, and I remember Piper was in ye olde Escalation book. Prime
should have Boomhowler, Eiryss and Reinholdt (iirc).

Don't forget Hearne and John With high def troops becoming so popular these days, these guys are still 3 points well spent.

And as a protectorate player I still love zealots tfg crusaders and vanquishers, not to mention all the prime casters.

I didn't play Mk1 so I honestly don't know very well what was what. Scuttlebutt suggests that Mk1 was a horrible bastardization of the game that Warmachine/Hordes have evolved into in Mk2.

But of the new releases in Wrath/Domination, nothing really replaces the units/models that were good before. The power creep that characterizes some game systems just doesn't seem to exist.

Battle Engines are nice but far, far from necessary.

Mulg is still the biggest, baddest troll in existence, as is his right.

Winterguard Infantry remain a horrific Def17 death star.

Bane thralls are almost as common in Cryx lists as the Black 13th are in Cygnar lists.

If anything, the newest releases seem a bit underwhelming. Constance Blaize doesn't really shake up the Cygnaran caster tiers at all. Harkevich certainly hasn't replaced Old Witch or Irusk as top-tier warcasters. And while some things make the sub-par stuff more appealing, like Wishnalyrr with Zerkova or the Attendant Priest with Forge Guard, none of it screams 'must have'.

Well, I haven't proxied it yet---but the Minuteman jack seems like the best of the latest Cygnar releases.

AgeOfEgos wrote:Well, I haven't proxied it yet---but the Minuteman jack seems like the best of the latest Cygnar releases.

Minuteman is great, but still has it's limitations. You can shred infantry with it, you can finish casters with it, but it is not scaring khador or menoth heavies. I'd say it has found it's own niche in the Cygnar armory and seems to be nice and well internally balanced jack.

Agree. Minuteman is a nice warjack addition for dealing with low-ARM/high Def or stealthed infantry, but it's very much a charge lane opener or crowd thinner; it's doing very little on its own.

In that respect it seems quintessentially Cygnar; a combined arms Jack good at throwing out tons of low pow hits for a combined arms faction with a lot of low pow hits.

sourclams wrote:I didn't play Mk1 so I honestly don't know very well what was what. Scuttlebutt suggests that Mk1 was a horrible bastardization of the game that Warmachine/Hordes have evolved into in Mk2.

MK1 was fine until they released Apotheosis. Several casters in that expansion broke the game and led to the power-creep that was present through Legends.

Anyone who says that Prime models aren't still useful obviously doesn't play the game. Sure there are some that have been replaced, but mostly the new models have been specialists where the Prime models are generalists.

Some good posts. This all confirms what I believe about MkII. IMO Most of MkI's problems were caused by Warmachine's exponential growth. This should be less of a problem in MkII.

With every game that has a following, there will be growing pains of sorts. Power creep is inevitable, but I've noticed that new models released don't tend to replace the old but enhance or fill in a gap.

For example, the Scythean is amazing as a beater, but does not really replace the Carnivean. They fill different roles and there are times where the Carnie's animus is a must have.

I feel they try to maintain the same focus on newer model releases as they do with Epic casters. They aren't more powerful generally speaking, just different.