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Backfire wrote:

GamzaTheChaos wrote:I think the DMG chart for tanks should bring back vehicle wrecked on a 6 with a glancing hit. OR make it immobilized AND weapon destroyed. something to really hurt it.

that way mech gets a knock down.

No, this would be a poor idea. It would emphasize quantity of the vehicles vs quality. Armies which use small amount of expensive but capable vehicles would suffer.

What is needed is not a rule change, but codex design change. When 5th Edition started, GW dropped basic transport prices down big time. This was a mistake. Things like Razorbacks, Rhinos and Chimeras are just too damn cheap. You don't see too many Dark Angels Razorspam lists out there, do you?

I disagree. they will never turn around THAT many codices to balance this game. 4th edition tanks were not to bad and they were not OP/Spamed you could wreck on a 6 with glancing. by bringing that back you can still use high cost tanks effectively you simply get a 4+ cover for vehicles now which didn't happen in 4th.

so IMO it makes the players think more tactically then having a spam mindset all while bringing some balance to so mech heavy lists. IMO its simply meeting in the middle of what was and was is.

I'm fine with the current edition.

I hope that a new edition doesn't show up for a while. I just bought most of my army and started painting - it would suck if I had to rewrite my list so soon.

I kind of lost interest in new editions at the end of 3rd after we had TVR and TAR.

I actually have stopped play 40K because i don't WANT to keep up withthe rules changes and "legal' armies anymore.

I still play old versions occassioanlly, and will play any specialist game you put in front of me.

If it has some kind of rule for massed firepower, sure.
Maybe Rapid Fire being *3 for under half range, would be pretty cool.

I don't want another fething rules update until ALL ARMIES are updated to the CURRENT edition rules.

I'm sort of torn on a 6th edition. There are some very big issues I have with 5th edition (kill points, squadron rules, wound allocation, defensive weapons, etc), but that said I fear 6th edition will backtrack on many things I feel were an improvement in 5th and way overcompensate on some things that could be slightly toned down given GW's past history.

I'm ready for 6th. There are too many 'universal' rules that aren't applied equally throughout all the books.

I would love a new edition, Im pretty bored with 5th and this is the first edition I've felt this way about 40k. After doing tons of tournaments I look across the board and I see everyone having the same army.. they may have different names for their units but its all a bunch of boxes with guys inside

Kirasu wrote:I would love a new edition, Im pretty bored with 5th and this is the first edition I've felt this way about 40k. After doing tons of tournaments I look across the board and I see everyone having the same army.. they may have different names for their units but its all a bunch of boxes with guys inside

You mean marines with different guns, riding inside rhinos?

I'm hoping for it. At this point it looks like we'll see 6th edition before Necrons(hopefully sarcasm), and since 5th screwed our codex over anything would be better than 5th edition so I say bring it on.

Also considering how overly dominate Assault armies are the rumors about the rearrangement of the Assault and shooting order would be a welcome change to the game.

I wouldn't mind 6th Edition, and I'm still playing with a 4th Edition Codex!

The biggest things I would like to see are as follows:

1) Cover either more difficult to get, or reduced to 5+ standard.

2) Remove Wound allocation. Diversified Nobs and TWC is stupid, and its also rediculous that a Leman Russ can cause less damage by firing heavy bolter sponsons.

3) Nerf Vehicle Spam. Either by errata to all the 5th edition codexes ramping up the costs of their transports- except for armies like Tau or Eldar who have not yet recieved a deduction in their transport costs. Alternatively allow wrecks on a glance again.

You still have to GET the glance... it just means that the weakest armor values can be destroyed by small arms- which when you consider that a bolter fires rocket propelled grenades... doesn't seem all that unacceptable.

Also the to hit rolls on vehicles need to be changed
0-6 = auto hit
7-12 = 4+
12+ = 6+

In any event it helps prevent the truffle shuffle which has the effect of giving a rhino the same weapon skill as an ork warboss.

Wait, what? Assault before you shoot.....?

I would like to see shooting and cover saves become more like the WFB equivalent.

Why do we have to choose only one armor save? Power Armour in the open should be less effective than Power Armour behind a wall of concrete.

I think instead of having a cover save and an armor save, and having to choose between the two, they should just get rid of the cover save and return to making it a -1 or -2 to hit.

Hiding behind a wall of concrete SHOULD make you harder to hit. And when you do get hit, you are still wearing a freaking suit of power armor.

I don't know how I feel about the WFB version of both an armor save and then an invol save though...

New editions usually result in a change in the metagame, which is healthy and keeps the hobby interesting, especially the tourney circuit while everyone figures out the new rules.

That's all good.

I don't like it when units get "disappeared" or are changed to the point where the existing models have to be tossed completely.

That's crappy.

akaean wrote:

3) Nerf Vehicle Spam. Either by errata to all the 5th edition codexes ramping up the costs of their transports- except for armies like Tau or Eldar who have not yet recieved a deduction in their transport costs.

tau and eldar tanks are costed to the 4E rules where skimmers were absolutely ridiculous, once adjusted downward it shouldn't be as big an issue.

Alternatively allow wrecks on a glance again.

for the love of god please no. There are several really good reasons they got rid of that (such as anti-infantry weapons being put to fairly effective anti-transport use where they have no business doing so), and with the change that vehicles are auto-hit on rear armor makes things way too easy to kill. This also effects gun tanks negatively that aren't exactly a balance issue.

You still have to GET the glance... it just means that the weakest armor values can be destroyed by small arms- which when you consider that a bolter fires rocket propelled grenades... doesn't seem all that unacceptable.

You never played 4E did you? Also it then means that heavy bolters and scatterlasers suddenly become rather effective against medium armor, it makes a scatterlaser as effective against AV12 as a krak missile.

Also the to hit rolls on vehicles need to be changed
0-6 = auto hit
7-12 = 4+
12+ = 6+

So tanks basically have their only real defense against CC mostly nullified, not really something that's needed. Tanks are hideously vulnerable to CC in this game, especially with the wide profusion of AT grenades and the like.

I'd like a 6th ed, so long as they focus on updating the flawed Codexes as opposed to the popular ones (or old but servicable ones). For example: the Nids.

And I want a SM update, just to take away the sheer Matt-Wardy-Ultrasmurf love of it.

I have a feeling this may be a case of the "grass is always greener" Does 5th have some problems, maybe, is it all that unrealistic that armies are fully mechanized in the 41 millennium?

Not me. I just want a new codex. A new edition would only push mine out further as they'd have to re-update all 8 colors of marines again first.

I don't want them to even take the chance at ruining what is otherwise the best system for 40k so far.

As a (relatively) new player, I'm a little concerned. I'm just about to get my Orks up to 1,500 points, though I really still have more to get (couple of KFF Meks, Killa Kans, and Boyz, Boyz, Boyz!) but I'd hate to finally get my army where I want it and then have to redo my list again. Plus I want to collect Necrons when (I dare say.... if?) they come out with the new codex and don't want to finally get to play the army I wanted to start my 40k collection with only to have them obsolited a few months later with 6th ed.

Granted, the Ork codex was made with 5th edition in mind and it still works great. I attribute that to Phil Kelly. I am ok with the rules that Matt Ward writes. Yeah, they are over powered, whatever. (NOT touching the fluff here, so take that elsewhere,) but I'm not sure he's the guy to make a Necron codex to withstand the test of time like the Ork Codex has. It'll be great until he makes the first Space Marine codex in 6th edition that has rules that let you auto-trump every special ability of any Xenos army a la Grey Knights with Daemons.

Vaktathi wrote:

akaean wrote:
Also the to hit rolls on vehicles need to be changed
0-6 = auto hit
7-12 = 4+
12+ = 6+

So tanks basically have their only real defense against CC mostly nullified, not really something that's needed. Tanks are hideously vulnerable to CC in this game, especially with the wide profusion of AT grenades and the like.

Thats a really interesting perspective, because I was pretty firmly under the impression that armies that relied on CC to open tanks were considered by many to be horrendously underpowered. Are you insisting that tanks are "hideously vulnerable" to Tyranids and and Chaos Daemons? I didn't realize that this was the case! I was always under the impression that Tyranid and Chaos Demon Players loaded up on Tzeentch Bolt Casters, and Hive Guard + Zoanthropes because dealing with tanks in close combat is *not* a good solution.

I would welcome a new edition but only if it was a major reworking and not more of the same with some new artwork. For instance, I'd like the turn sequence changed altogether. Instead of one player moving and shooting, I'd like to see each player taking a move, then both shooting.
I've lost track of games I've played or watched where the player going first does major damage to his opponent's army to the point where that player has no chance of competing. It makes for a very boring game if your army is decimated before you have even moved.

In reference to all these ideas of making armour worse in the next edition. While it is tedious to deal with Razorspam and Chimera walls...think about the effects you would have on non Guard/SM armies.

Wrecking on a Glance would make my dark eldar unplayable. (not that it doesnt happen already, but making it easier wont help) I really think that fixing the inner problems of 5th ed will make a good 6th ed.
As to the whole spammy unoriginal army issue which has cropped up all over the place...I actually blame the internet more than I blame GWs unit pricing for this. There are more and more kids comming into the store where I play going on and on about so and so on the internet saying this or that was a good list etc. And then when we do have a tournament (about every 2 months) lo and behold they show up with Space Wolf, Blood Angel, and IG mechspam. They dont do so well because even though they have armies handed to them on a platter they do not understand the game that well, but anyway. I like my thursday evenings more where people show up with whatever.

I hate 5th edition. 6th can't come soon enough. But I don't want something like we have had since 3rd where the following is just a patch and pendulum swing.

I want new/expanded mechanics. I want a rewrite from the ground up.

akaean wrote:
Thats a really interesting perspective, because I was pretty firmly under the impression that armies that relied on CC to open tanks were considered by many to be horrendously underpowered. Are you insisting that tanks are "hideously vulnerable" to Tyranids and and Chaos Daemons? I didn't realize that this was the case! I was always under the impression that Tyranid and Chaos Demon Players loaded up on Tzeentch Bolt Casters, and Hive Guard + Zoanthropes because dealing with tanks in close combat is *not* a good solution.

Both of these armies are noted as having significant issues. Daemons have issues beyond AT, the army is too damn random and much of their AT CC is reliant on on relatively easy to kill units that have to sit there and eat it for a turn before they can do anything and come in randomly. That's not an issue with the vehicle rules. Tyranids have the problem that many of their units that are good at killing tanks in CC are just too damned expensive such as the Carnifex, though one will notice that Trygons are quite popular and excellent at killing tanks. Tyranids also have an issue where only certain units are capable of harming tanks, not everything. They still need ranged AT however like any other army and the old real way to do that is hive guard and zoans since there's really nothing else that will do the job, especially in enough volume to matter. When you're facing an army where every single model has an integral CC AT Capability like every flavor of Space Marines, popping tanks in CC is suddenly much easier.

However, as someone with Tyranids, Guard, CSM's, Sisters, Eldar and Tau, who has been playing 1-3 games a week for the last several years in multiple metro areas, I feel I have a fairly good idea of what works and doesn't, subjective though it may be. When facing an army like SM's where every single infantry model has S6 Krak grenades and all my tanks are rear armor 10, it doesn't take many enemy models getting close to start killing lots of tanks.

I want 6th edition, mainly because it would give me an excuse to actually buy a rulebook

With so many new codexes needed, I don't see how releasing 6th ed. any time soon is a good thing. We still need:

Eldar, CSM, Tau, and Necrons. These are the ones that REALLY need updates. Orks doesn't *need* an update but it's showing its age.


I will say this: I'm very hesitant to start another army before 6th edition because I have no idea what will get the nerfbat and what will be amazing. GW are only going to be hurting themselves with secrecy.

I'm happy to stay in 5th for the next 10 years. Might be able to get a couple of games in then

Durza wrote: Or they should not give Space Marines a 6th ed codex and see how they like it.

If only! Or retconn it so that the geneseed stocks were destroyed over fears of a supersoldier revolt and remove them totally so they could concentrate on the other races each edition.

I'm for it. My only request is to make foot slogging viable.

Keep your feet on the ground lad!