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FITZZ wrote:...Or in a fridge?
Really I was attempting to more or less examine the trains of thought behind the actions, in 1950's cold war America it would be "reasonable" to presume that Dr.Jones would believe that climbing into the fridge would somehow protect him from the blast,so despite the silliness of the actual scene...it makes a bit of sense from a certain perspective, his motivation was survival and he was simply using what was avialible coupled with the given Knowledge of the time ( get into/under something heavy for protection).
...or am I way over thinking this whole Nuke Vs Jump thing?
The problem with jump the shark and nuke the fridge is that they're statements describing absudity. That Indie could hide in a fridge and survive a point blank nuclear blast, is so absurd no one can actually watch it and think that it's a reasonable turn for the story. By all rights of reality, he should be dead, and it's so blatantly obvious he should be dead that most of the audience just cut out from the film.
It's an issue of suspension of disbelief.
Well yes, I definitely agree with you there...and of course the same can be said for most "action films" to a greater or lesser degree, when we see 40 or 50 "bad guys" unloading with automatic weapons at Arnold whilst he casually walks through the incoming fire cheerfully dispatching them and delivering goofy one liners...it's esentially the same thing as Indy hinding in the fridge...it's " hero armor"...suspension of disbelief...but I've yet to hear anyone coin the phrase " Shooting the Swarzenagger" to convey absurdity in films/TV....at least not yet.
I think the big problem with the "Nuke the Fridge" scene is the way the rest of the movie/franchise was handled.
When you go see a Schwarzenegger (or Rambo, or any OTT action star) movie, you go in knowing that he's a super-human that is immune to bullets. Your suspension of disbelief is ready for him to survive just about anything with nothing more than a few scratches.
But, Indy has always been a somewhat realistic hero. Sure, there's been some supernatural aspects to the movies. But, Indy has always been a somewhat average guy who gets beaten up, captured, and is a flesh-and-blood human. The idea that a realistic character could survive that is what is so unbelievable. And, the fact that the rest of the movie was so terrible causes people to focus on the most ridiculous part of the movie and ridicule it.
FITZZ wrote:...Or in a fridge?
Really I was attempting to more or less examine the trains of thought behind the actions, in 1950's cold war America it would be "reasonable" to presume that Dr.Jones would believe that climbing into the fridge would somehow protect him from the blast,so despite the silliness of the actual scene...it makes a bit of sense from a certain perspective, his motivation was survival and he was simply using what was avialible coupled with the given Knowledge of the time ( get into/under something heavy for protection).
...or am I way over thinking this whole Nuke Vs Jump thing?
The problem with jump the shark and nuke the fridge is that they're statements describing absudity. That Indie could hide in a fridge and survive a point blank nuclear blast, is so absurd no one can actually watch it and think that it's a reasonable turn for the story. By all rights of reality, he should be dead, and it's so blatantly obvious he should be dead that most of the audience just cut out from the film.
It's an issue of suspension of disbelief.
Well yes, I definitely agree with you there...and of course the same can be said for most "action films" to a greater or lesser degree, when we see 40 or 50 "bad guys" unloading with automatic weapons at Arnold whilst he casually walks through the incoming fire cheerfully dispatching them and delivering goofy one liners...it's esentially the same thing as Indy hinding in the fridge...it's " hero armor"...suspension of disbelief...but I've yet to hear anyone coin the phrase " Shooting the Swarzenagger" to convey absurdity in films/TV....at least not yet.
See, thats not quite as absurd though. Its way more plausible than surviving a nuclear blast... in a refrigerator... I mean, there have been documented cases where people waded through a field of hot lead and emerged largely unscathed. Granted, they weren't casually walking through and cheerfully dispatching them while delivering goofy one liners, but its within the realm of possibility and suspension of disbelief is possible. To my knowledge nobody has ever survived a nuclear blast at ground zero... NOTHING survives a nuclear blast at ground zero...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/10/27 15:26:08
CoALabaer wrote: Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Whether or not it's actually realistic isn't the point.
Readers choose to believe the fiction. However, some things by a completely arbitrary standard, are just too absurd. A guy firing 50 bullets from his pistol in a gun fight is a subtle thing. Obviously in this case, unrealistic gun fights are easier for an audience to buy into and believe than Indie getting into a box and surviving a nuclear blast. I mean look at movie music? Music doesn't play in the background for dramatic effect in real life, but we tend to just accept it in movies and television and theater.
Grakmar kind of hinted at it in his post as well. Most American comedies are very absurd, but we buy into the fiction anyway, partially because we go in expecting the comedy to be a little silly. It's a comedy you know? We expect action movies to be filled with bullets and Michaelbayplosions so it doesn't really shock us that much. There apparently existed a line in Kingdom of the Crystal Skull for some people that broke when they saw Indiana Jones survive an atomic bomb that made them break from the fiction (it did for me).
It's a little arbitrary yes, but that's the nature of the beast. It's not a hard science we can really dissect. It's some anomalous mix of style that I find usually determines if something can be 'believed' in fiction. Comedy and fantasy we give more leeway than say, a pseudo-realist action/adventure. Jump the Shark/Nuke the Fridge, is a statement that something is too absurd to be believed. Not that isn't unrealistic per se. People will believe unrealistic things and be fine with it.
EDIT: Case example. Look at Kick Ass. The movie is completely absurd. Very very unrealistic and totally unbelievable. However, we bought into it anyway! Why? It probably helps that the movie just never takes itself seriously. The same thing happened in the Green Hornet. The tone was light, kind of whimsical. It presented an aloof atmosphere and in that context, we sort of bought into it even though it defies what we know of reality.
Now contrast that to the Dark Knight. Very tense, very serious. Yet, we bought into the fiction anyway because it never drew attention or tried to explain away how unrealistic it was. Really, replace Batman with Jack Bauer, and the Joker with random Terrorist A, and the movie is very believable even though its unrealistic. A lot like earlier Die Hard films really.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/10/27 16:46:21
And because it's arbitrary I disagree. I did not find that scene abhorrent, myself. Now, the psychic aliens that showed up later... didnt' really fit in to the rest of the Jones stuff.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/10/27 16:49:09
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Melissia wrote:And because it's arbitrary I disagree. I did not find that scene abhorrent, myself. Now, the psychic aliens that showed up later...
Exactly. Some people will believe something more than others. It's more of a range than a line, and parts of Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull really pushed the edges of that range.
LordofHats wrote:Whether or not it's actually realistic isn't the point.
Readers choose to believe the fiction. However, some things by a completely arbitrary standard, are just too absurd. A guy firing 50 bullets from his pistol in a gun fight is a subtle thing. Obviously in this case, unrealistic gun fights are easier for an audience to buy into and believe than Indie getting into a box and surviving a nuclear blast. I mean look at movie music? Music doesn't play in the background for dramatic effect in real life, but we tend to just accept it in movies and television and theater.
Grakmar kind of hinted at it in his post as well. Most American comedies are very absurd, but we buy into the fiction anyway, partially because we go in expecting the comedy to be a little silly. It's a comedy you know? We expect action movies to be filled with bullets and Michaelbayplosions so it doesn't really shock us that much. There apparently existed a line in Kingdom of the Crystal Skull for some people that broke when they saw Indiana Jones survive an atomic bomb that made them break from the fiction (it did for me).
It's a little arbitrary yes, but that's the nature of the beast. It's not a hard science we can really dissect. It's some anomalous mix of style that I find usually determines if something can be 'believed' in fiction. Comedy and fantasy we give more leeway than say, a pseudo-realist action/adventure. Jump the Shark/Nuke the Fridge, is a statement that something is too absurd to be believed. Not that isn't unrealistic per se. People will believe unrealistic things and be fine with it.
...And again, I completely agree with you, as I said I was more or less examining the "character motivation" behind the actions ( absurdity of both granted), Indie's actions just seemed to make more " sense".
...Yeah, I'm definitely way over thinking this whole thing..
I am both selfish and chaotic. I value self-gratification and control; I want to have things my way, preferably now. At best, I'm entertaining and surprising; at worst, I'm hedonistic and violent.
Is it a sin to frequently prefer quick-fix mashed potato spuds over most mashed potatoes prepared from a freshly cooked potato? heh.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
I would go so far as to say that equally, if not more so, implausible things have happened in prior Indiana Jones movies that somehow didn't inspire this amount of nerd rage.
Reaching into a guy's chest, pulling out his heart, and then having him still be alive as he is lowered into the lava and the still beating heart in the High Priest's hand catching on fire comes immediately to mind. In a world where this can happen, hiding from a nuke in a refrigerator doesn't seem all that far fetched.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/10/27 16:53:59
Drink deeply and lustily from the foamy draught of evil.
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Haters gon' hate.
Monster Rain wrote:Reaching into a guy's chest, pulling out his heart, and then having him still be alive as he is lowered into the lava and the still beating heart in the High Priest's hand catching on fire comes immediately to mind. In a world where this can happen, hiding from a nuke in a refrigerator doesn't seem all that far fetched.
Like I said before, people give more leeway to fantasy. Indiana Jones films have mystical elements in them, and people accept this as part of the fiction. I mean, there's an invisible walkway in The Last Crusade, and people's faces being melted off in Raiders of the Lost Ark However, there's nothing magical about hiding in a fridge. It's a matter of context.
Another reason many people didn't like Kingdom is because it wasn't really that mystical. Previous Indie films had elements of fantasy, while Kingdom had less fantasy and more sci-fi. The change in tone didn't mix well with a lot of people. I for one think a mystical angle would have worked better than with the Crystal Skull than aliens. I freely believe that aliens do not belong in Indian Jones!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/10/27 16:58:35
Monster Rain wrote:I would go so far as to say that equally, if not more so, implausible things have happened in prior Indiana Jones movies that somehow didn't inspire this amount of nerd rage.
Reaching into a guy's chest, pulling out his heart, and then having him still be alive as he is lowered into the lava and the still beating heart in the High Priest's hand catching on fire comes immediately to mind. In a world where this can happen, hiding from a nuke in a refrigerator doesn't seem all that far fetched.
Well...yeah, now that you mention it Indie does seem to get out of some fairly rough spots in somewhat "unbelievable" manners....hell, he escaped the " wrath of god" by closing his eyes.
I am both selfish and chaotic. I value self-gratification and control; I want to have things my way, preferably now. At best, I'm entertaining and surprising; at worst, I'm hedonistic and violent.
That I actually understood. No mortal eyes were allowed to look upon that glory.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Melissia wrote:That I actually understood. No mortal eyes were allowed to look upon that glory.
... I suppose that makes sense, but still clearly Indie has escaped from some pretty difficult situations ( repeatedly) in each film...and I'd guess that the " fridge escape" was meant to be another example of this " theme" ( perhaps also meant as a nod to some cold war " safety" advice)...
Perhaps it's due to the fact that most fans of the Dr. Jones films just didn't care for Crystal Skull that the improbability of the fridge escape has become an issue...
I am both selfish and chaotic. I value self-gratification and control; I want to have things my way, preferably now. At best, I'm entertaining and surprising; at worst, I'm hedonistic and violent.
There was no way the crystal skull could have lived up to their standards. The standards were impossibly high because of the problem of memory only remembering the good things.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Melissia wrote:There was no way the crystal skull could have lived up to their standards. The standards were impossibly high because of the problem of memory only remembering the good things.
+1
The Indy films are films that defined our childhood (with the exception of you old farts). We remember them with joy and wonder. There's no way they could have made the 4th film live up to expectations.
Melissia wrote:There was no way the crystal skull could have lived up to their standards. The standards were impossibly high because of the problem of memory only remembering the good things.
+1
The Indy films are films that defined our childhood (with the exception of you old farts). We remember them with joy and wonder. There's no way they could have made the 4th film live up to expectations.
The real crime is that they tried.
What I found slightly amusing is that when I watched all four or the films with my Children ( who'd never seen any of them), they thought that all of the movies were " pretty cool"...so yes, I believe our " memories" of the first films do weigh in when judging the fourth film.
I am both selfish and chaotic. I value self-gratification and control; I want to have things my way, preferably now. At best, I'm entertaining and surprising; at worst, I'm hedonistic and violent.
I actually disliked the part where the monkeys attack the Russians for no real reason the most annoying part.
Also, they show way, way, way too much at the end witht he aliens and the spaceship. Cut soem of that down, and I think we still have a good action/adventure flick.
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LordofHats wrote:Like I said before, people give more leeway to fantasy.
Yes, that's my point exactly.
It's a completely illogical and arbitrary decision to believe that a guy can still be alive 3 minutes after his heart was removed from his chest (without leaving a mark, btw) and get riled up about someone surviving a nuclear blast in a refrigerator.
They're both pretty ridiculous.
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Grakmar wrote:The Indy films are films that defined our childhood (with the exception of you old farts). We remember them with joy and wonder. There's no way they could have made the 4th film live up to expectations.
The real crime is that they tried.
This is the real problem, to me.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/10/27 18:48:45
Drink deeply and lustily from the foamy draught of evil.
W: 1.756 Quadrillion L: 0 D: 2
Haters gon' hate.
Melissia wrote:There was no way the crystal skull could have lived up to their standards. The standards were impossibly high because of the problem of memory only remembering the good things.
+1
The Indy films are films that defined our childhood (with the exception of you old farts). We remember them with joy and wonder. There's no way they could have made the 4th film live up to expectations.
The real crime is that they tried.
What I found slightly amusing is that when I watched all four or the films with my Children ( who'd never seen any of them), they thought that all of the movies were " pretty cool"...so yes, I believe our " memories" of the first films do weigh in when judging the fourth film.
I thought all the Indiana Jone were good, I just find it funny people get all riled up about Indie surviving a nuclear blast in a fridge and Kingdom of the Crystal Skull having aliens but they're completely fine with
cups that melt your face, a coffin that shots lasers, Indie surviving a ridiculous fall with a raft in Temple of Doom, invisible bridges, guys surviving with out there heart, etc. Indiana Jones has always been
ridiculous, besides the movies were created as a homage to old cheesy B-movie adventure films.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/10/27 19:15:24
Monster Rain wrote:They're both pretty ridiculous.
It isn't that illogical or arbitrary. One is presented as magic, the other as science. For story purposes I'm willing to believe that a diety can get away with breaking some rules. On the other hand surviving a nuclear explosion becuase were are supposed to believe that the GE corporation made a super refrigerator that can with stand a nuclear blast as well as shield him from massive amounts of radiation. One is an appeal to the magical (A wizard did it) and the other is an appeal to the logical, which is where it breaks down. Which goes back to the problem of creating the pattern of religion, religion, religion, science and aliens!
There are certainly issues from the older movies as well, most notably using the raft to survive a fall out of an airplane. That would be a more apt comparison than the comparing the mystical stuff to the non-mystical stuff.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/10/27 19:26:28
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
Monster Rain wrote:They're both pretty ridiculous.
It isn't that illogical or arbitrary. One is presented as magic, the other as science. For story purposes I'm willing to believe that a diety can get away with breaking some rules. On the other hand surviving a nuclear explosion becuase were are supposed to believe that the GE corporation made a super refrigerator that can with stand a nuclear blast as well as shield him from massive amounts of radiation. One is an appeal to the magical (A wizard did it) and the other is an appeal to the logical, which is where it breaks down. Which goes back to the problem of creating the pattern of religion, religion, religion, science and aliens!
I think the reason they picked science and aliens (along with commies) is because the 50's was was considered the golden age of sci-fi (and monster B-movies) so it was done as a homage to that era.
Monster Rain wrote:They're both pretty ridiculous.
It isn't that illogical or arbitrary. One is presented as magic, the other as science. For story purposes I'm willing to believe that a diety can get away with breaking some rules. On the other hand surviving a nuclear explosion becuase were are supposed to believe that the GE corporation made a super refrigerator that can with stand a nuclear blast as well as shield him from massive amounts of radiation. One is an appeal to the magical (A wizard did it) and the other is an appeal to the logical, which is where it breaks down. Which goes back to the problem of creating the pattern of religion, religion, religion, science and aliens!
I think the reason they picked science and aliens (along with commies) is because the 50's was was considered the golden age of sci-fi (and monster B-movies) so it was done as a homage to that era.
I understand that, I just don't think they got that message across very well so it just seems like a jarring shift in the tone of the franchise. If it had been executed in a different way perhaps they could have made that point more apparent, but even the director seems unhappy with the project, which isn't typically a good sign. I also don't think people actually like Shia Lebouf, so that didn't help either.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/10/27 19:34:14
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
Monster Rain wrote:They're both pretty ridiculous.
It isn't that illogical or arbitrary. One is presented as magic, the other as science. For story purposes I'm willing to believe that a diety can get away with breaking some rules. On the other hand surviving a nuclear explosion becuase were are supposed to believe that the GE corporation made a super refrigerator that can with stand a nuclear blast as well as shield him from massive amounts of radiation. One is an appeal to the magical (A wizard did it) and the other is an appeal to the logical, which is where it breaks down. Which goes back to the problem of creating the pattern of religion, religion, religion, science and aliens!
I think the reason they picked science and aliens (along with commies) is because the 50's was was considered the golden age of sci-fi (and monster B-movies) so it was done as a homage to that era.
I understand that, I just don't think they got that message across very well so it just seems like a jarring shift in the tone of the franchise. If it had been executed in a different way perhaps they could have made that point more apparent, but even the director seems unhappy with the project, which isn't typically a good sign. They created a pattern in the previous films and just went on a tangent; Lucas may have intended it to be that way, but it didn't come across that way. I also don't think people actually like Shia Lebouf, so that didn't help either.
I can understand why people didn't like it but to me Indiana Jones will always be the cheesy adventure B-movies going on one ridiculous adventure after another. And to me Kingdom of the Crystal Skull fulfilled
that criteria.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/10/27 19:45:29
Cheesecat wrote:I can understand why people didn't like it but to me Indian Jones will always be the cheesy adventure B-movies going on one ridiculous adventure after another. And to me Kingdom of the Crystal Skull fulfilled that criteria.
I didn't dislike it as much as some, and indeed several parts were well done. I even can let the fridge thing slide. If they removed Mutt (or changed the character to be less annoying) and changed the ending I think it would have been better received. If they were going for the 50's red scare and sci-fi the aliens shouldn't have been the modern conception of them and more fitting of the time period. I also would have changed a few bits of the dialogue like "the real treasure was knowledge" which I recall laughing at in the theater as well as the "they aren't from space but the spaces between spaces".
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
Ahtman wrote:Which goes back to the problem of creating the pattern of religion, religion, religion, science and aliens!
That's a much better argument.
Still, in a Universe where Temple of Doom happened I will never quite understand why anything would seem implausible. If I can suspend my disbelief for one I can do it for the other.
Drink deeply and lustily from the foamy draught of evil.
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Haters gon' hate.
Well, 'nuking the fridge' sounds better than 'dropping the raft' I guess.
Cool scene though. The rest of the movie was craptacular. The bad guys weren't particularly Bad bad guys, the jungle scenes were stupid, and dancing spetznatz is almost insulting.
We needed some nazis rebuilding the Reich with the skull to have made it work, ar alternativel the rise of a new Inca Empire.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
I mean, I could go ahead and say that the majority of Lucas' films aren't really all that great if you watch them with a critical eye, but I don't want to bring the whole house of cards down.
Drink deeply and lustily from the foamy draught of evil.
W: 1.756 Quadrillion L: 0 D: 2
Haters gon' hate.
