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2011/10/29 13:39:05
Subject: Re:US Congress approval rating in single digits
Keynesian economists believe that adding to profits and incomes during boom cycles through tax cuts, and removing income and profits from the economy through cuts in spending and/or increased taxes during downturns, tends to exacerbate the negative effects of the business cycle. This effect is especially pronounced when the government controls a large fraction of the economy, and is therefore one reason fiscal conservatives advocate a much smaller government.
So, given the above and assuming Keynes had it right, how can you support Pres Obama and the Democratic party's desire to raise taxes right now?
Additionally, after the tons of stimulus already spent by the past and current administrations, and the current state of the economy, what would give you the impression that more stimullus will work?
Especially stimulus NOT spent the way Keynes assumed it would be spent (massive job creating infrastructure)? You cannot help but notice that a majority of the past and proposed stimulus spending is on gov't jobs vice infrastructure, and the infrastructure which was funded was basically handouts to various unions. Buy more cops and teachers and IRS agents and Gov't bureaucracy and you don't get much except more debt. I very much doubt Keynes would approve of the way his theories are being put into practice.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/10/29 13:40:36
Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings.
2011/10/29 14:03:45
Subject: Re:US Congress approval rating in single digits
Keynesian economists believe that adding to profits and incomes during boom cycles through tax cuts, and removing income and profits from the economy through cuts in spending and/or increased taxes during downturns, tends to exacerbate the negative effects of the business cycle. This effect is especially pronounced when the government controls a large fraction of the economy, and is therefore one reason fiscal conservatives advocate a much smaller government
If he is correct, how can we support the Republican Party's desire to cut spending right now?
2011/10/29 16:35:46
Subject: US Congress approval rating in single digits
CptJake wrote:So, given the above and assuming Keynes had it right, how can you support Pres Obama and the Democratic party's desire to raise taxes right now?
Technically speaking, they'd just be letting a temporary tax cut lapse, rather than raising it. But seeing as the rich don't ever actually pay the full amount anyway, I don't see it as entirely relevant.
More important is the desire to spend money to increase demand... something which has actually been shown, historically speaking to work (unlike supply-side economics, which has never worked).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/10/29 16:36:21
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2011/10/29 17:18:18
Subject: US Congress approval rating in single digits
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/10/29 17:31:17
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2011/10/29 18:55:57
Subject: US Congress approval rating in single digits
Shadowseer_Kim wrote:Well, it is simply not the governments job to create jobs. When governments create jobs, they are public sector jobs paid for by private sector tax payers.
No, government can dramatically influence the creating of jobs in the private sector.
I know my post was long, but if you had read it, you would have realized, we just agreed on this. We both just stated it in a different way.
2011/10/29 19:01:01
Subject: US Congress approval rating in single digits
I admit that I skimmed over it, so apologies there for getting the wrong idea.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2011/10/29 22:27:47
Subject: Re:US Congress approval rating in single digits
Keynesian economists believe that adding to profits and incomes during boom cycles through tax cuts, and removing income and profits from the economy through cuts in spending and/or increased taxes during downturns, tends to exacerbate the negative effects of the business cycle. This effect is especially pronounced when the government controls a large fraction of the economy, and is therefore one reason fiscal conservatives advocate a much smaller government
If he is correct, how can we support the Republican Party's desire to cut spending right now?
One of the criticisms of Keynesian economics IIRC is that it advocates diarist leaving taxes where they are or lowering them and having the government use deficit spending to help the economy out of the crapper. It could be that the Elephants are shying away from Keynesian theories...or they oppose anything Mr. Obama and Co dare to suggest with the "not my idea" syndrome.
Avatar 720 wrote: You see, to Auston, everyone is a Death Star; there's only one way you can take it and that's through a small gap at the back.
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
2011/10/29 23:37:25
Subject: Re:US Congress approval rating in single digits
Referencing how Mr. Buffet thought that it was ludicrous that he pays less taxes than a simple middle-class secretary, and how the Republicans are scared of him bringing light to the situation.
Spoiler:
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/10/30 00:32:41
2011/10/30 09:05:43
Subject: US Congress approval rating in single digits
Thing is, flat taxes are almost always a bad idea because they basically tax the poor more than they do the rich while giving the illusion of being fair to everyone therefor hard to change.
Didn't someone propose a flat tax with a reduced rate for those with an income under $36,000?
edit: I think it was the tax ignored the first $36,000 of income.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/10/30 09:06:09
Thing is, flat taxes are almost always a bad idea because they basically tax the poor more than they do the rich while giving the illusion of being fair to everyone therefor hard to change.
Didn't someone propose a flat tax with a reduced rate for those with an income under $36,000?
edit: I think it was the tax ignored the first $36,000 of income.
It'd still be regressive, as a 10% tax on 40,000 (4,000 in tax, 36,000 left) hurts the person making 40,000 more tahn the person who makes 400,000 (40,000 in tax, 360,000 left).
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2011/10/30 12:53:48
Subject: US Congress approval rating in single digits
If you would feel the need to tax them, you should do it at a very low rate, because even small taxes have a big impact on someone living off of around 20k-40k a year.
But I don't necessarily agree that it is "fair". Taxing everyone the same is definitely not fair because it doesn't effect everyone the same.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2011/10/30 13:15:04
Subject: Re:US Congress approval rating in single digits
My 'feeling the need' or not doesn't matter. I'm just genuinely curious if folks are okay that a very large minority does not pay any federal taxes (a number which grew thanks to the Evil Bush Tax Cuts the same folks seem to want to end by the way).
In my mind it does not seem 'fair' (whatever value you want to assign to 'fair') that a huge group can vote to put politicians into office that have promised to increase what this group gets at the expense of others. At what point has a rich guy or gal paid what you consider 'fair'?
As one guy put it:
In my opinion it is even worse to vote to redistribute wealth for your personal gain, because you are angry someone else has more than you do. I honestly believe that is a huge motivation too. Not a genuine need, but instead a jealousy that someone else has more, and they must have more because something is not 'fair'.
But that is obviously just my opinion.
Instead of programs designed to get folks off the dole, politicians seem to want to increase the dependence of those on the dole to ensure a voter demographic based on jealousy and anger that someone else has more.
Wealth is NOT a zero sum game. True wealth creation is exactly that, creation vice redistribution. Redistribution tends to stop or at least stagnate wealth creation. The guy who puts up the capital and takes the risks when starting a business should profit more than a guy that just runs a machine or answers the phones. But everyone involved in a new business/industry does profit, even if not at the same rates. There is nothing wrong with that in my mind.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/10/30 13:15:54
Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings.
2011/10/30 13:19:30
Subject: US Congress approval rating in single digits
So you would assume anyone who supports a position other than your own is just angry and jealous?
How droll...
I do not think you know what "zero-sum game" means, but regardless, the expanding difference between the rich and the poor/middle class rather proves your little rant wrong. The rich are getting richer, the poor are getting poorer-- as the rich have power over government through money and thus get a crapton of benefits.
Very few rich people pay their full tax. Often, they're taxed less than middle class are. Google pays something like 2.4% in tax.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/10/30 13:20:53
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2011/10/30 13:47:07
Subject: US Congress approval rating in single digits
Also that guy's little speech is a load of crap. No one holds a gun to my head to make me pay taxes, I do it gladly because I know it goes to fund hospitals, road building projects, schools, water treatment, police and defence forces and a variety of other things I don't want to worry about but am glad that serious people are paid to do so for me. The government might spend some of my money innappropriately, but I approve of the vast majority of the ways it is used so I'm not too bothered.
Nobody in the US has someone come in and point a gun at them either, that's simply an emotive turn of phrase and to me, indicative of a poor argument.
As to your risk/reward thing, well that seems pretty screwed up at the moment, with private lenders and industries being bailed out by governments in many countries. Looks like the dream of unregulated free market capitalism is not any more functional than the dream of communist utopia.
The reality, as usual, is more complex and much less easy to express in catchy bite size rhetoric pieces.
CptJake wrote: I honestly believe that is a huge motivation too. Not a genuine need, but instead a jealousy that someone else has more, and they must have more because something is not 'fair'.
CptJake wrote:
In my mind it does not seem 'fair' (whatever value you want to assign to 'fair') that a huge group can vote to put politicians into office that have promised to increase what this group gets at the expense of others.
Maybe not the best way to conclude an argument.
CptJake wrote:
Instead of programs designed to get folks off the dole, politicians seem to want to increase the dependence of those on the dole to ensure a voter demographic based on jealousy and anger that someone else has more.
Wait, so this poster is upset about people having more benefits as a result of the redistribution of wealth, and yet excoriates a group of people that he believes are upset about the fact that others have more than they do?
Sending cops in riot gear after hippies in tents and lobbing flashbangs at people who are trying to save the life of an OIF vet with a fractured skull courtesy of the same police force usually gives you at least some entertaining TV.
Corrected your typo.
And you'll note they are starting to crack down now. Half the Austin group was arrested. The rest were allowed to stay on these stone risers. They look like some sort of bad performance art. San Diego and other cities have cracked down during the last week. Time for the people to take back their parks from the hooligans. Unleash the hounds!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
CptJake wrote: I very much doubt Keynes would approve of the way his theories are being put into practice.
*for arguments' sake-and this is purely as Devil's advocate as its not my position-why on earth would you say that? He argued that just having people dig holes and filling them would work.
Now my personal view - I agree. I am all for a carefully planned capex program for the US to revamp the road system, and perhaps as a prep for switching over to an electrical grid/hydrogen based economy (powered by nuke, wind or faire dust, it doesn't freaking matter). But not for jobs, because it won't help that.
We are at the point where long term structural changes need to be done to the US economy. Not short term tax breaks. Not short term spending propping up mouth breathing government workers.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Karon wrote:
Referencing how Mr. Buffet thought that it was ludicrous that he pays less taxes than a simple middle-class secretary, and how the Republicans are scared of him bringing light to the situation.
Spoiler:
What a joke. Taxing the wealthy more (which I am ok with actually) will not add one job to the US economy.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
juraigamer wrote:Congress would work better if every legislation was decided by the winners of games of laser tag. Or dodge ball.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MeanGreenStompa wrote:Is the guy in that picture Penn of Penn and Teller fame?
Yes.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2011/10/31 11:28:26
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2011/10/31 11:52:15
Subject: US Congress approval rating in single digits
I never said that it would add jobs, but the Republicans lose all credibility to me when they support tax cuts for the wealthy..it makes zero sense.
Why do the people with millions have to pay LESS money than everyone else? Its ludicrous. Republicans are always bitching about how we spend too much and are getting ourselves in too much of a debt...well take away those tax cuts you guys like so much that only effect the tippy-top and we'll get some money back.
2011/10/31 12:13:32
Subject: US Congress approval rating in single digits
Karon wrote:I never said that it would add jobs, but the Republicans lose all credibility to me when they support tax cuts for the wealthy..it makes zero sense.
Why do the people with millions have to pay LESS money than everyone else? Its ludicrous. Republicans are always bitching about how we spend too much and are getting ourselves in too much of a debt...well take away those tax cuts you guys like so much that only effect the tippy-top and we'll get some money back.
Look at the numbers. They do NOT pay less money than everyone else. First off, if 47% pay NO federal income taxes, your statment is already false. Next, when you see that the top 1% pay in over 35% of the federal income tax revenue it is pretty clear they pay more money that others.
You may not be happy with the percent of their worth that they pay, but it is dishonest or ignorant to claim they pay less that 'everyone else'.
Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings.
2011/10/31 12:50:15
Subject: US Congress approval rating in single digits
CptJake wrote:Look at the numbers. They do NOT pay less money than everyone else.
You really need to pay attention to what they ACTUALLY pay, and not to what they pay on paper.
Google pays something like 2.4% tax on its revenue. Others manage to find far less loopholes and pay ten to twenty percent average.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2011/10/31 12:59:46
Subject: US Congress approval rating in single digits
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2011/10/31 13:04:57
Subject: US Congress approval rating in single digits
International income-shifting, which helped cut Google’s overall effective tax rate to 22.2 percent last year, shows one way that loopholes undermine that top U.S. rate
text removed by Moderation team.
2011/10/31 13:07:01
Subject: US Congress approval rating in single digits
International income-shifting, which helped cut Google’s overall effective tax rate to 22.2 percent last year, shows one way that loopholes undermine that top U.S. rate
Yep.
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
2011/10/31 14:15:10
Subject: US Congress approval rating in single digits
halonachos wrote:(areas like inner city Detroit would have a 3-3-3 instead of 9-9-9)
He told Detroit it would be 9-0-9 for them.
Sorry guys, Detroit is 313....................................................................................................................................
Its an area code joke.
2011/10/31 16:20:05
Subject: US Congress approval rating in single digits
International income-shifting, which helped cut Google’s overall effective tax rate to 22.2 percent last year, shows one way that loopholes undermine that top U.S. rate
Pwned.
To be fair the tittle of the article was deliberately misleading.
Avatar 720 wrote: You see, to Auston, everyone is a Death Star; there's only one way you can take it and that's through a small gap at the back.
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
2011/10/31 19:52:33
Subject: US Congress approval rating in single digits
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