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dogma wrote:

Frazzled wrote:
Hippies and college professors (and reporters...) same difference.

As noted, put 100,000 autoworkers on march decrying the outsourcing of jobs, Frazzled's in support.

So, basically, you care more about the aesthetic appeal of who happens to be protesting, than what they're protesting?

Partly, but let me clarify.

1. They don't have a defined message. Much of it is socialist (or weirdly) Ron Paulish nonsense. The issues I agree with are lost when rants to bring down the capitlist system are provided as the answer, or thats its just the INSERT SCAPE GOAT GROUP HERE's fault (that goes the other way of course, arguments about welfare mothers always fell flat with me unless corporate welfare and crony capitalism was also noticed)
2. There are real concerns that I agree with, but who is doing the protesting is incredibly relevant.

CptJake wrote:Can you clearly state the movement's message?

The US democratic and economic system needs to be reformed so that it does not so strongly favor those whom already have a large amount of wealth.

There. That's its message, clearly stated. What is disagreed upon is the means by which to do this-- for now anyway.

Yes, because in your mind ALL of the protestors are being violent, and you can de-humanize the entire movement in your mind this way because a select few have been violent.

Melissia wrote:

CptJake wrote:Can you clearly state the movement's message?

The US democratic and economic system needs to be reformed so that it does not so strongly favor those whom already have a large amount of wealth.

There. That's its message, clearly stated. What is disagreed upon is the means by which to do this-- for now anyway.

Want to link to that on their website?

On the front page of the website.

Our political system should serve all of us — not just the very rich and powerful. Right now Wall Street owns Washington

From its about page:

The movement is inspired by popular uprisings in Egypt and Tunisia, and aims to expose how the richest 1% of people are writing the rules of an unfair global economy that is foreclosing on our future.

Really, this is hardly a some secret message kept to anyone who's actually been paying attention. This is the common strain amongst all of the myriad groups who have honestly (and not merely to cause chaos) participated in the movement.

Melissia wrote:

CptJake wrote:Can you clearly state the movement's message?

The US democratic and economic system needs to be reformed so that it does not so strongly favor those whom already have a large amount of wealth.

There. That's its message, clearly stated. What is disagreed upon is the means by which to do this-- for now anyway.

Except thats not its message, of course. Some say reform, some say crush/destroy/put people in jail. Some say destory the fed, go to the gold standard, the earth really is flat etc. etc. etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:On the front page of the website.

Our political system should serve all of us — not just the very rich and powerful. Right now Wall Street owns Washington

From its about page:

The movement is inspired by popular uprisings in Egypt and Tunisia, and aims to expose how the richest 1% of people are writing the rules of an unfair global economy that is foreclosing on our future.

Really, this is hardly a some secret message kept to anyone who's actually been paying attention. This is the common strain amongst all of the myriad groups who have honestly (and not merely to cause chaos) participated in the movement.

Neither of those are what you just said actually.

Or, from their web site http://occupywallst.org/ :

the only solution is WorldRevolution

Here is their actual declaration:

http://www.nycga.net/resources/declaration/

Says a lot about what they are against, not too much about what they actually want to do.

 They have taken our houses through an illegal foreclosure process, despite not having the original mortgage.
*****”They” have to have the mortgage or they have no color of law to do anything.
 They have taken bailouts from taxpayers with impunity, and continue to give Executives exorbitant bonuses.
****Yep. Whatcha gonna do about?
 They have perpetuated inequality and discrimination in the workplace based on age, the color of one’s skin, sex, gender identity and sexual orientation.
****What? I just stumbled into a DNC hoedown.
 They have poisoned the food supply through negligence, and undermined the farming system through monopolization.
*****What? What?
 They have profited off of the torture, confinement, and cruel treatment of countless animals, and actively hide these practices.
****”Don’t you know what they do to those animals? I don’t know but its delicious. “
 They have continuously sought to strip employees of the right to negotiate for better pay and safer working conditions.
*****What?
 They have held students hostage with tens of thousands of dollars of debt on education, which is itself a human right.
***Held them hostage? Waaa waa I took basket weaving for nine years and now I have to pay off my loans.
 They have consistently outsourced labor and used that outsourcing as leverage to cut workers’ healthcare and pay.
****YES finally a real point.
 They have influenced the courts to achieve the same rights as people, with none of the culpability or responsibility.
***Yes to the first, no to the second (it has to go the same way)
 They have spent millions of dollars on legal teams that look for ways to get them out of contracts in regards to health insurance.
****Some have some haven’t (who’s they again?)
 They have sold our privacy as a commodity.
***Yep, of course a lot of that only occurs when you click “I agree” plus what does that have to do with anything?
 They have used the military and police force to prevent freedom of the press.
***Really? Er no. That’s Syria stupid.
 They have deliberately declined to recall faulty products endangering lives in pursuit of profit.
***Really? Er no. Of course everything’s from China anyway.
 They determine economic policy, despite the catastrophic failures their policies have produced and continue to produce.
***True that. They do. I doubt you did in Starbucks.
 They have donated large sums of money to politicians, who are responsible for regulating them.
***True dat, just like unions, and associations (but I agree with this point)
 They continue to block alternate forms of energy to keep us dependent on oil.
***No dumbass, they just don’t work. Haven’t been keeping with Chu and current events I guess.
 They continue to block generic forms of medicine that could save people’s lives or provide relief in order to protect investments that have already turned a substantial profit.
***You mean like “generics?” you don’t have a clue do you.
 They have purposely covered up oil spills, accidents, faulty bookkeeping, and inactive ingredients in pursuit of profit.
**** Really, you have proof where? Inactive ingredients are inactive Again what does this have to do with your 27 other complaints.
 They purposefully keep people misinformed and fearful through their control of the media.
***That’s just as wrong as it is stupid. You’re starting to really be whiny now.
 They have accepted private contracts to murder prisoners even when presented with serious doubts about their guilt.
***WTF? Seriously?
 They have perpetuated colonialism at home and abroad.
***Really? Global GDP is improving. Its Europe and the USa that’s got its ass kicked
 They have participated in the torture and murder of innocent civilians overseas.
****I reference the above WTF?
 They continue to create weapons of mass destruction in order to receive government contracts.*
***Ask Iran about that.

Militant Hippyism doesn't work. Too emotional for rational discourse.

Re: PETA, Greenpeace, that Whale Wars guy, and OWS.

Yep, the best liberal protests have been cool, collected and SPECIFIC.

Yes. They do. Trendy fethers are always protesting about something, and they all annoy me no matter what it is they are gobbing off about, even if I agree with them.

I hate hipsters, but then, I hate absolutely everyone if I'm generalising.

Posh people, poor people, hippies, gun-nuts.. basically I dislike people that can be bothered to get involved in "movements" of any kind, even a movement I might somewhat agree with because I have something in common with them, such as atheists or military veterans or people that vote for the Conservative party, or particularly handsome hairy people from the North-East.

In my simplistic world view it simply boils down to this. If you want to complain about something, send a five minute email, if you want to vote, go do it, if you want to be a religious believer or not, crack on, and then go and get on with your life.

Basically If your in a "movement" and you hang around in a gang making lots of noise and waving banners and marching, I think your a proper sad bastard, and you should take the dog for a walk, play scrabble with the kids or go to the pub with your friends.

Rational discourse is what the power elites use to keep the rest of us out of the game.

Trust me, once the middle class starts "winning" the class war with rational discourse; you'll see how fast rational discourse is no longer relevant to those seeking to keep power.

Sometimes, rational discourse must be tempored with passion and feeling. I can rationalize a lot of terrible and hateful things; but it is my passion and feelings that keeps me from acting on them.

TL,DR= Rational discourse is over-rated.

Easy E wrote:Rational discourse is what the power elites use to keep the rest of us out of the game.

Trust me, once the middle class starts "winning" the class war with rational discourse; you'll see how fast rational discourse is no longer relevant to those seeking to keep power.

Sometimes, rational discourse must be tempored with passion and feeling. I can rationalize a lot of terrible and hateful things; but it is my passion and feelings that keeps me from acting on them.

TL,DR= Rational discourse is over-rated.

So you're down with irrational discourse then. That explains the OWS.

mattyrm wrote: In my simplistic world view it simply boils down to this. If you want to complain about something, send a five minute email, if you want to vote, go do it, if you want to be a religious believer or not, crack on, and then go and get on with your life.

I happen to work in a large organization that has a whole department to "handle" those e-mails. Do you know what impact it has on the actual organization? None.

Eventually, some people get to a point where simply being ignored by the "powers that be" because they are "insignificant" becomes no longer acceptable. The only way I know of to make a large organization listen is to get a large organization of your own. Without it, you will always be "insignificant" to the "powers that be".

Is that when you employ the irrational discourse?

Frazzled wrote:

Easy E wrote:Rational discourse is what the power elites use to keep the rest of us out of the game.

Trust me, once the middle class starts "winning" the class war with rational discourse; you'll see how fast rational discourse is no longer relevant to those seeking to keep power.

Sometimes, rational discourse must be tempored with passion and feeling. I can rationalize a lot of terrible and hateful things; but it is my passion and feelings that keeps me from acting on them.

TL,DR= Rational discourse is over-rated.

So you're down with irrational discourse then. That explains the OWS.

No, it's just not the be all and end all. Humans are far more complex, and when you can show me a completely rational actor that only works logically with no other motivation, I will be very scared.

So you're down with flinging blood on people wearing fur (PETA)?

You're down with breaking into farms and destroying experimental drought resistant crops for impoverished countries (Greenpeace)?

Being a lying, fat bastard (The skipper on Whale Wars)?

Frazzled wrote:Is that when you employ the irrational discourse?

Come on Frazzled, I thought you were all about the "Ends Justifies the Means"? It doesn't matter how you win as long as you win, right? Maybe that was Rented Tritium?

Sometimes, you start from a feeling, and build rational arguments to support it. However, the initial thought process wasn't inherently rational. It was just a feeling.

kronk wrote:So you're down with flinging blood on people wearing fur (PETA)?

You're down with breaking into farms and destroying experimental drought resistant crops for impoverished countries (Greenpeace)?

Being a lying, fat bastard (The skipper on Whale Wars)?

Well, maybe they could mix it up a little.

They could break into farms and fling lying fat bastards at impoverished countries.
Speaking of that, a new Pumpkin Chunkin comes on next week.

kronk wrote:So you're down with flinging blood on people wearing fur (PETA)?

You're down with breaking into farms and destroying experimental drought resistant crops for impoverished countries (Greenpeace)?

Being a lying, fat bastard (The skipper on Whale Wars)?

Hey, did you buy a Jump to Conclusions mat or something? If not, can I interest you in one?

Edit: Pumpkin Chuckin' is amazingly compelling viewing.

kronk wrote:So you're down with flinging blood on people wearing fur (PETA)?

You're down with breaking into farms and destroying experimental drought resistant crops for impoverished countries (Greenpeace)?

Being a lying, fat bastard (The skipper on Whale Wars)?

Mate, when I was in Iraq I remember reading a story about some of those animal rights mother fethers digging an old woman's body up because she had a fur coat on!

Oh here I found it!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/staffordshire/4762481.stm

We should give Al-Queda a week off and smash those fethers!

The message is simple and should be one everyone can identify with.

Corporations and wealthy people essentially own the democratic process because its all based on who has the most money. Its why you see bills like SOPA come into existence.

The movement wants this to stop, by enforcing stricter regulation or banks and corporations, stop corporate donations to political candidates and a whole slew of other things designed to ensure wealthy people are not the only ones making decisions.

Anyone making generalisations about the whole movement being done by hipsters is just being ridiculous. Have you actually taken the time to see what type of people are taking part in these protests? Doubtful

Besides that, I doubt anyone at all could rationalise the response given by the police towards the protests after even just watching a few of protests. Just google the name Scott Oslen for an example of this or hell look up the many instances of police brutality being enforced.

Finally here's a link I think puts the feelings behind the protest into perspective.

http://boingboing.net/2011/10/15/your-ascent-to-the-1-doesnt-mean-the-system-is-fair.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+boingboing/iBag+(Boing+Boing)&utm_content=Google+Reader

Asuron wrote:The message is simple and should be one everyone can identify with.

Corporations and wealthy people essentially own the democratic process because its all based on who has the most money. Its why you see bills like SOPA come into existence.

The movement wants this to stop, by enforcing stricter regulation or banks and corporations, stop corporate donations to political candidates and a whole slew of other things designed to ensure wealthy people are not the only ones making decisions.

Anyone making generalisations about the whole movement being done by hipsters is just being ridiculous. Have you actually taken the time to see what type of people are taking part in these protests? Doubtful

Besides that, I doubt anyone at all could rationalise the response given by the police towards the protests after even just watching a few of protests. Just google the name Scott Oslen for an example of this or hell look up the many instances of police brutality being enforced.

Finally here's a link I think puts the feelings behind the protest into perspective.

http://boingboing.net/2011/10/15/your-ascent-to-the-1-doesnt-mean-the-system-is-fair.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+boingboing/iBag+(Boing+Boing)&utm_content=Google+Reader

QFT.
Hatred is so much easier than actual thought.

dsteingass wrote:

Asuron wrote:The message is simple and should be one everyone can identify with.

Corporations and wealthy people essentially own the democratic process because its all based on who has the most money. Its why you see bills like SOPA come into existence.

The movement wants this to stop, by enforcing stricter regulation or banks and corporations, stop corporate donations to political candidates and a whole slew of other things designed to ensure wealthy people are not the only ones making decisions.

Anyone making generalisations about the whole movement being done by hipsters is just being ridiculous. Have you actually taken the time to see what type of people are taking part in these protests? Doubtful

Besides that, I doubt anyone at all could rationalise the response given by the police towards the protests after even just watching a few of protests. Just google the name Scott Oslen for an example of this or hell look up the many instances of police brutality being enforced.

Finally here's a link I think puts the feelings behind the protest into perspective.

http://boingboing.net/2011/10/15/your-ascent-to-the-1-doesnt-mean-the-system-is-fair.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+boingboing/iBag+(Boing+Boing)&utm_content=Google+Reader

QFT.
Hatred is so much easier than actual thought.

Are you saying those who disagree with you aren't using actual thought? Yep, that will help when over the masses. I guess we all need a firm hand to be driven by your cool logic.

Frazzled wrote:

dsteingass wrote:

Asuron wrote:The message is simple and should be one everyone can identify with.

Corporations and wealthy people essentially own the democratic process because its all based on who has the most money. Its why you see bills like SOPA come into existence.

The movement wants this to stop, by enforcing stricter regulation or banks and corporations, stop corporate donations to political candidates and a whole slew of other things designed to ensure wealthy people are not the only ones making decisions.

Anyone making generalisations about the whole movement being done by hipsters is just being ridiculous. Have you actually taken the time to see what type of people are taking part in these protests? Doubtful

Besides that, I doubt anyone at all could rationalise the response given by the police towards the protests after even just watching a few of protests. Just google the name Scott Oslen for an example of this or hell look up the many instances of police brutality being enforced.

Finally here's a link I think puts the feelings behind the protest into perspective.

http://boingboing.net/2011/10/15/your-ascent-to-the-1-doesnt-mean-the-system-is-fair.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+boingboing/iBag+(Boing+Boing)&utm_content=Google+Reader

QFT.
Hatred is so much easier than actual thought.

Are you saying those who disagree with you aren't using actual thought? Yep, that will help when over the masses. I guess we all need a firm hand to be driven by your cool logic.

If you generalise an entire movement, which saw over 30000 people in Wall Street protesting only just a few hours ago, as a small group of smelly, stupid hippies then yes that's exactly what I'm saying.
You've had nothing but snide comments so far that don't actually address the points of what anyone said, while at the same time labelling anyone who sympathises or joins in the protest as people just trying to be cool and that they are idiots for doing so. At what point will you actually say something valid here?

Easy E wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Is that when you employ the irrational discourse?

Come on Frazzled, I thought you were all about the "Ends Justifies the Means"? It doesn't matter how you win as long as you win, right? Maybe that was Rented Tritium?

That was me, but "ends justifies the means" is not even close to describing what I said.

Asuron wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

dsteingass wrote:

Asuron wrote:The message is simple and should be one everyone can identify with.

Corporations and wealthy people essentially own the democratic process because its all based on who has the most money. Its why you see bills like SOPA come into existence.

The movement wants this to stop, by enforcing stricter regulation or banks and corporations, stop corporate donations to political candidates and a whole slew of other things designed to ensure wealthy people are not the only ones making decisions.

Anyone making generalisations about the whole movement being done by hipsters is just being ridiculous. Have you actually taken the time to see what type of people are taking part in these protests? Doubtful

Besides that, I doubt anyone at all could rationalise the response given by the police towards the protests after even just watching a few of protests. Just google the name Scott Oslen for an example of this or hell look up the many instances of police brutality being enforced.

Finally here's a link I think puts the feelings behind the protest into perspective.

http://boingboing.net/2011/10/15/your-ascent-to-the-1-doesnt-mean-the-system-is-fair.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+boingboing/iBag+(Boing+Boing)&utm_content=Google+Reader

QFT.
Hatred is so much easier than actual thought.

Are you saying those who disagree with you aren't using actual thought? Yep, that will help when over the masses. I guess we all need a firm hand to be driven by your cool logic.

If you generalise an entire movement, which saw over 30000 people in Wall Street protesting only just a few hours ago, as a small group of smelly, stupid hippies then yes that's exactly what I'm saying.
You've had nothing but snide comments so far that don't actually address the points of what anyone said, while at the same time labelling anyone who sympathises or joins in the protest as people just trying to be cool and that they are idiots for doing so. At what point will you actually say something valid here?

I said the protesters were idiots, not posters here on Dakka. On the flip side I don't have to convince anyone. Its incumbent on the supporters to convinece the rest of us. Unless you secretly plan on putting us in re-education facilities of course.

Yeah I mean, when people view you in a light you don't like, you can't run around yelling at them about it. You have to fix it. It's your job to get your message out how you want. If people say they don't know what you stand for, then it's your own failure to communicate that does it.

It's one thing if a certain demographic is always against you, but dude, I'm a dyed in the wool Keynesian with nothing but lifelong democrat friends and almost everyone I know is rolling their eyes at OWS.

Not knowing what OWS really wants specifically is pretty bipartisan. That means you're doing something wrong.

Rented Tritium wrote:

Easy E wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Is that when you employ the irrational discourse?

Come on Frazzled, I thought you were all about the "Ends Justifies the Means"? It doesn't matter how you win as long as you win, right? Maybe that was Rented Tritium?

That was me, but "ends justifies the means" is not even close to describing what I said.

You are right. I think you were more along the lines of, if you win, then it was all legal. Winners write the history books. For the most part, I agree with you.

So it doesn't matter how irrational I was at the time. If I win, I can make it all right. I'm sure Charlie Scheen is happy to hear this.

Also, can someone define for me what a "Hipster" is? I'm pretty sure it is nothing like a Chav, right?


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Rented Tritium wrote:Yeah I mean, when people view you in a light you don't like, you can't run around yelling at them about it. You have to fix it. It's your job to get your message out how you want. If people say they don't know what you stand for, then it's your own failure to communicate that does it.

It's one thing if a certain demographic is always against you, but dude, I'm a dyed in the wool Keynesian with nothing but lifelong democrat friends and almost everyone I know is rolling their eyes at OWS.

Not knowing what OWS really wants specifically is pretty bipartisan. That means you're doing something wrong.

Maybe you guys don't like them because they aren't following the "system", you know the approved Red vs. Blue messaging? Honestly, if you don't know what they are about then you are willfully trying to ignore it, or don't want to understand. Any idea which of those it is?

Easy E wrote:
Also, can someone define for me what a "Hipster" is? I'm pretty sure it is nothing like a Chav, right?

Right now or historically? Hipster means a new thing each decade since it's defined by change and perceived uniqueness.

Hipsterism is the fetishization of the unique and new. That's the best I can do without citing specific examples.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Easy E wrote:Honestly, if you don't know what they are about then you are willfully trying to ignore it, or don't want to understand. Any idea which of those it is?

Do you remember all that talk earlier about how people dehumanize OWS with their group language?

This is the same thing.

Because I don't share your views, I must be willfully ignorant. There's no chance in the world I have a different perspective from you, I am just being dumb on purpose.

Awesome.