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Its a game.
Just have fun with it and do what makes you happy.

Tlo1048 wrote:Its a game.

No matter what argument, political placement, racist agenda, blah blah blah, its a game.

If you want to paint swastikas on your army, then do it. If you want to draw an upside down, crucified Jesus Christ on your models, then do it. Its not about offending anyone. If anything, its teaching people to get over their vain attempts to avoid racism. Anti-Racism is racism. You can't get rid of it, you can't avoid it, get over it.

I'm not interested in an arguement about history, politics, racism, communism, facism, swastikas, jews, or gentiles...I dont care! Have fun and paint and design your models to any fashion you want.

Not to mention that the Swastika was around much, MUCH before Hitler ever "Claimed" it.

Just have fun with your game and do what makes you happy.

EDIT: And I am NOT condoning the painting of a representation of Nazi Germany...it was terrible. I would find it to poor taste if he had "Nazi Orks", wearing the colors of the Nazi party, killing people on the bases. But in the end, its his choice.

Just because "You don't care", doesn't mean it won't be offensive, or hurtful, to someone else.
Leave the Swastikas at home. other than that, go nuts.

Tlo1048 wrote:If anything, its teaching people to get over their vain attempts to avoid racism. Anti-Racism is racism. You can't get rid of it, you can't avoid it, get over it.

How is being opposed to racism racist. If you dislike a "racist" person solely because of their beliefs and not their race or ethnicity or national origin, then you're not being racist.

I'm not interested in an arguement about history, politics, racism, communism, facism, swastikas, jews, or gentiles...I dont care! Have fun and paint and design your models to any fashion you want.

That's fine, and respect this particular position of yours, even though I don't agree with it.. I generally fed up with the overboard political correctness we see today, and most thinks wouldn't bother me, at least not to enough to bring it up. But Nazis man, come on, and it's not just what they did to the Jew (thought they suffered the most) they tortured and murdered plenty of other groups who didn't fit their definition of perfection.

Not to mention that the Swastika was around much, MUCH before Hitler ever "Claimed" it.

This has already been covered. Yes most of us are aware of this, but the symbol is going to make 9/10 people instantly think of the Nazis.

Just have fun with your game and do what makes you happy.

I agree that he can paint whatever he wants, but he shouldn't be surprised when people are offended.

edited for grammar

It would be 100% okay to make Jihadist orks, why wouldn't it be? Like I said I've been personally affected by the "war on terror" and it doesn't bother me, its a miniature war game. As long as the guy who made it isn't passing out propaganda flyers at my local GW I don't care. My point about blackface was that it would never be represented on a military model, doesn't make any sense. It does however make sense to model some orks in the fashion I described if they already look like German soldiers from WW2. Also, DKOK Imperial Guardsmen look exactly like semi-futuristic Nazi's. I never said it wouldn't offend anyone, I said it shouldn't and that I wouldn't care if it did. Were going to have to agree to disagree here, good talk.

I have some old metal Stormboyz that I'm always a bit weary of fielding because you cant deny the "look" lol

These ain't mine but it's the same set...
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/150/untitled2zf5.jpg/

But I'm of the opinion that so long as it wasn't intended to offend or shock, then there's no problem

Well, considering my ancestry and what the Japanese and Americans did to my country during WW2... I don't get offended when I see a Japanese flag, or an American flag for that matter. Plus, I paint a very crusader-themed army and even my strict Catholic family is not offended by it. Pardon me: although I get where the hate is coming from, I don't get get it.

We're playing a game with an army that glorifies the Templars, people. If you come down to it, the crusades are about religious prejudice. Sure, one might argue it happened a long time ago. Does that mean that a hypothetical wargaming company can make Nazi-themed miniatures 800 years in the future and it'll be okay? I'm not looking for a fight, just a discussion. Food for thought for everyone.

To the OP, I think a German Army themed Ork Army would actually be pretty cool, I don't think using swastikas is necessary or advantages. Hopefully that somewhat answers your original question, which kind of has gotten lost among all the political discussion.

heartserenade wrote:
I don't get offended when I see a Japanese flag, or an American flag for that matter.

Those are national symbols with long histories, so while atrocities were certainly committed by those nations the flags themselves do not conjure images of those atrocities as instantly as the swastika does, for me anyways. The swastika doesn't make me think of Germany with it's long history before and after the Nazi, but makes me think directly of the Nazis and their atrocities.

We're playing a game with an army that glorifies the Templars, people. If you come down to it, the crusades are about religious prejudice. Sure, one might argue it happened a long time ago. Does that mean that a hypothetical wargaming company can make Nazi-themed miniatures 800 years in the future and it'll be okay? I'm not looking for a fight, just a discussion. Food for thought for everyone.

Idk, probably. The fact that there are people still living today that were directly affected by the Nazis has something to do with it. In even 200 years I doubt people will care as much about what happened in WWII nearly as much as they do today. But in the present it effects are still felt by some.

But I agree that history is full of countless atrocities, and I think how much time has pasted it a large part of how much it bothers people.

edited for grammar

Grass4hopper wrote:
Those are national symbols with long histories, so while atrocities were certainly committed by those nations the flags themselves do not conjure images of those atrocities as instantly as the swastika does, for me anyways. The swastika doesn't make me think of Germany with it's long history before and after the Nazi, but makes me think directly of the Nazis and their atrocities.

Even so, there was a time even after the war where a Japanese flag is viewed with much hatred and is associated with rape, murder and plunder. Now it's just a Japanese flag. Maybe we Filipinos in general just don't hold grudges that long.

Idk, probably. The fact that there are people still living today that were directly affected by the Nazis has something to do with it. In even 200 years I doubt people will care as much about what happened in WWII nearly as much as they do today. But in the present it effects are still felt by some.

But I agree that history is full of countless atrocities, and I think how much time has pasted it a large part of how much it bothers people.

edited for grammar

Maybe. People will be offended by 9/11 jokes but everyone can safely laugh when someone jokes about the Black Plague or Pompeii. Does that mean that we're offended not because what happened is tragic and atrocious but because the wound it caused is still present in living memory? If you think about it the crusades themselves are horrible and now we're okay with it.

Yea lets justify swastikas and bring that into this game. GIVE ME A BREAK!

On the offensive/non-offensive aspect of Nazi Orks...

I'm Jewish, and I don't care in the slightest. All I care about is that it is done well.

Seriously, don't get caught up in the connotations of the project. It's just a game, and appreciate the project for its coolness. Well done to the OP.

Thare1774 wrote:It would be 100% okay to make Jihadist orks, why wouldn't it be? Like I said I've been personally affected by the "war on terror" and it doesn't bother me, its a miniature war game. As long as the guy who made it isn't passing out propaganda flyers at my local GW I don't care. My point about blackface was that it would never be represented on a military model, doesn't make any sense. It does however make sense to model some orks in the fashion I described if they already look like German soldiers from WW2. Also, DKOK Imperial Guardsmen look exactly like semi-futuristic Nazi's. I never said it wouldn't offend anyone, I said it shouldn't and that I wouldn't care if it did. Were going to have to agree to disagree here, good talk.

I think the point that has been made in this thread is that periods where atrocities were caused by humans can only be safely broached when they have long passed out of living memory. WW2 is still in living memory and as such, Nazi symbols still generate an emotional response in many people. Just because you aren't offended yourself doesn't mean you can assume other people will be fine with it.

And you really think you can justify Jihadist Orks? Personally, I think given the current climate, that's more than a little sick. The point isn't that the material is presented on an inoffensive medium, it's that the material is presented in a way that makes light of the subject matter. And once again, you can't judge what will offend people by your own standards, being offended is something subjective to all humans.

Plus, the DKOK are a common misconception, their inspiration stems from WW1 and their uniforms are more heavily inspired by the French uniforms of the time.

Finally, I respect you for fighting for your country and I'm sorry for the atrocities that you yourself have witnessed.

Well, considering my ancestry and what the Japanese and Americans did to my country during WW2... I don't get offended when I see a Japanese flag, or an American flag for that matter. Plus, I paint a very crusader-themed army and even my strict Catholic family is not offended by it. Pardon me: although I get where the hate is coming from, I don't get get it.

We're playing a game with an army that glorifies the Templars, people. If you come down to it, the crusades are about religious prejudice. Sure, one might argue it happened a long time ago. Does that mean that a hypothetical wargaming company can make Nazi-themed miniatures 800 years in the future and it'll be okay? I'm not looking for a fight, just a discussion. Food for thought for everyone.

I don't think anyone is "hating" on anyone else. People can be passionate about their views, and when expressing them might seem to be intense but I don't really sense any hatred. What some people are arguing is that Swastikas are not appropriate to adorn your miniatures with, and others are arguing that they are.

Anyways, I think you bring up a good point here. It's interesting how memories of Japanese and Italian fascism do not carry the same level of guilt and severity as Nazism. We often portray WW2 Japanese soldiers as incredibly brave, with great fighter planes like the Zero, a powerful navy and unstoppable infantry. However, fascist Japanese soldiers were also responsible for relentless killing, rape and other atrocities on a very large scale. As for Italian Fascism, the actual birthplace of Fascism itself, there are still large reliefs and inscriptions in many parts of Rome that read "Duce! Duce! Duce" and promote the fascist rule. Nothing like that would fly in Germany, at least from what I saw in the couple months I spent there studying. I did see some kids with shaved heads and black boots stomping around toting some neo-nazi crap, but that was only once and they are just teenagers.

The Nazi party is irrevocably linked to the holocaust, which was an unprecedented scale of systematic mass murder. It also happened less than 80 years ago, was well documented, and is much in the public memory. In the public mind, it tends to overshadow other atrocities in the 20th century. On that point, it's interesting to see that genocides like that in Rwanda are probably less well known/cared about than the Nazi holocaust. Why is this? It's really hard to say, considering Rwanda was far more recent. To answer your question about a hypothetical company making Nazi-themed miniatures 800 years in the future, I think you will see something far sooner than that. Probably within the next century at least. It does have a lot to do with public memory, and that whole issue is a wound not yet fully healed.

Also, I don't get why your Catholic family would be offended by a Crusader-Themed army?

@Lord_Vader- Once again, I have never said it wouldn't offend anybody. I said it shouldn't and I wouldn't care if it did. And as far as DKOK is concerned, they do resemble German ww2 uniforms. Nobody looks at that army and says, "oh they look like French soldiers from www1". thx for that last comment, a guy a few comments ago suggested I was lying about my experiences which is more than irritating. I didn't say it to show off, the guy was trying to tell me I couldn't relate to the tragedies of war.

@Lord_Vader- Once again, I have never said it wouldn't offend anybody. I said it shouldn't and I wouldn't care if it did. And as far as DKOK is concerned, they do resemble German ww2 uniforms. Nobody looks at that army and says, "oh they look like French soldiers from www1". thx for that last comment, a guy a few comments ago suggested I was lying about my experiences which is more than irritating. I didn't say it to show off, the guy was trying to tell me I couldn't relate to the tragedies of war.

I never said you were lying, I gave you the benefit of the doubt in the end. I was telling you that you couldn't relate to the tragedies of the Holocaust, which you can not.

Lord_Vader wrote:

Thare1774 wrote:It would be 100% okay to make Jihadist orks, why wouldn't it be? Like I said I've been personally affected by the "war on terror" and it doesn't bother me, its a miniature war game. As long as the guy who made it isn't passing out propaganda flyers at my local GW I don't care. My point about blackface was that it would never be represented on a military model, doesn't make any sense. It does however make sense to model some orks in the fashion I described if they already look like German soldiers from WW2. Also, DKOK Imperial Guardsmen look exactly like semi-futuristic Nazi's. I never said it wouldn't offend anyone, I said it shouldn't and that I wouldn't care if it did. Were going to have to agree to disagree here, good talk.

I think the point that has been made in this thread is that periods where atrocities were caused by humans can only be safely broached when they have long passed out of living memory. WW2 is still in living memory and as such, Nazi symbols still generate an emotional response in many people. Just because you aren't offended yourself doesn't mean you can assume other people will be fine with it.

And you really think you can justify Jihadist Orks? Personally, I think given the current climate, that's more than a little sick. The point isn't that the material is presented on an inoffensive medium, it's that the material is presented in a way that makes light of the subject matter. And once again, you can't judge what will offend people by your own standards, being offended is something subjective to all humans.

Plus, the DKOK are a common misconception, their inspiration stems from WW1 and their uniforms are more heavily inspired by the French uniforms of the time.

Finally, I respect you for fighting for your country and I'm sorry for the atrocities that you yourself have witnessed.

Yet I bet WWI-era Ottomon Orks wouldn't make anyone bat an eyelid... Oooh I could give one a Fez!

the only problem is the ensignia. if you go pre-nazi germany the uniforms were the same and there were no racial ties and no genocidal acts were committed. I think it would be appropriate to remove the symbols (which some may find offensive i personally dont give 2 s....) otherwise nicely sculpted and a great/inventive idea

Reckoner wrote:Also, I don't get why your Catholic family would be offended by a Crusader-Themed army?

They might be offended. But they're not.

Something about putting religious iconography on toy soldiers might be mistaken for blasphemy, especially if they're Catholic symbols. If you view my gallery you would get how heavily I use them, and not just the usual Greek and Latin crosses: I use the Chi-Rho, the Alpha and Omega, The jerusalem cross, and I made heavy reference to lives of the saints. I surmised Christians wouldn't care as much as Catholics since a lot of Christian groups do not use said symbols and/or iconoclastic anyway. Maybe Catholics might feel uncomfortable about it, so I checked it first with the CCC (Catechism of the Catholic Church). After checking and double-checking I find that it is in no way technically blasphemous.

It's sorta like tatooing the image of Jesus or Mary on your body. Some Catholics, especially those who can remember Vatican I, might be a little irked by it.

I sorta studied Medieval and Renaissance art history back in college so I'm obsessive about Christian iconography and its history, hence my army.


As for the Nazis compared to Rwanda, I think it's more of public knowledge because let's face it, what the Nazis did is more well-known. They're the quintessential bad guys for us now, that even mowing down Nazis in games and movies is just like mowing down zombies (or Nazi zombies)-- no one would think twice that maybe they have a human aspect and you can kill as many as you want and it's not immoral.

Heartserenade, I checked out your gallery, it's very impressive! There is a lot of iconography from both Orthodox and Catholic Christianity. I spent a semester in Rome studying Italian and Roman history and had to visit almost a couple hundred different churches. It's cool you use stuff dating back to Constantine and early Christianity, I find those sorts of symbols are the most intriguing. Especially the many depictions of the Saints...man you could paint Martyrdoms forever.


I also agree with what you said about Rwanda and the Nazis. They have been iconicized as the ubiquitous villains in media and popular culture. That's why it's always interesting to see movies that take the perspective of the "other side", like The Reader or for an older war film, Stalingrad. I reccomend both.

I can't think of any better way to rob the Nazis of any shred of dignity or, dare I say it, respect they might yet have than to lampoon them as an Ork army.

EDIT: Superfluous apostrophe removed.

Reckoner wrote:Heartserenade, I checked out your gallery, it's very impressive! There is a lot of iconography from both Orthodox and Catholic Christianity. I spent a semester in Rome studying Italian and Roman history and had to visit almost a couple hundred different churches. It's cool you use stuff dating back to Constantine and early Christianity, I find those sorts of symbols are the most intriguing. Especially the many depictions of the Saints...man you could paint Martyrdoms forever.


I also agree with what you said about Rwanda and the Nazis. They have been iconicized as the ubiquitous villains in media and popular culture. That's why it's always interesting to see movies that take the perspective of the "other side", like The Reader or for an older war film, Stalingrad. I reccomend both.

Thanks! I mostly added the Orthodox flavor when I was painting the Rhino, since I find that Medieval Christian murals are a bit.... silly when put on a Rhino. And believe me, I tried painting Bayeux tapestry-like or Medieval woodblock-y images on the Rhino, and it just didn't fit. And you've been to Rome? I've always wanted to go there. My lifelong dream is to look Michelangelo's Pieta and weep at the fact that he made that sculpture when he was the same age as me.

I'm also glad that someone got the stuff I painted on my miniatures without me looking like a know-it-all trying to explain them.

Interestingly, I've watched Downfall just quite recently and it featured the last days of Hitler. I think it's more scary that they are just like us, and we can potentially think like them given and do the things they have done. I've also watched Letters from Iwojima and coming from a country who had bad history during WW2 with Japan, it is quite jarring.


Back on topic of Nazi Orks: if I were the OP, I'd gauge first how my local playgroup would feel about them, since they're the ones who'll encounter your army quite often. I believe there's a guy in our gaming club with a Nazi-themed IG army (swastikas and all). I don't know him personally but from what I can tell no one in our playgroup is really affected by it. I guess the holocaust is just not a touchy subject here.

Thanks! I mostly added the Orthodox flavor when I was painting the Rhino, since I find that Medieval Christian murals are a bit.... silly when put on a Rhino. And believe me, I tried painting Bayeux tapestry-like or Medieval woodblock-y images on the Rhino, and it just didn't fit. And you've been to Rome? I've always wanted to go there. My lifelong dream is to look Michelangelo's Pieta and weep at the fact that he made that sculpture when he was the same age as me.

I'm also glad that someone got the stuff I painted on my miniatures without me looking like a know-it-all trying to explain them.

Interestingly, I've watched Downfall just quite recently and it featured the last days of Hitler. I think it's more scary that they are just like us, and we can potentially think like them given and do the things they have done. I've also watched Letters from Iwojima and coming from a country who had bad history during WW2 with Japan, it is quite jarring.


Back on topic of Nazi Orks: if I were the OP, I'd gauge first how my local playgroup would feel about them, since they're the ones who'll encounter your army quite often. I believe there's a guy in our gaming club with a Nazi-themed IG army (swastikas and all). I don't know him personally but from what I can tell no one in our playgroup is really affected by it. I guess the holocaust is just not a touchy subject here.

Yes, have you read The Agony and the Ecstasy? I highly reccomend it if you are into Michelangelo. I'd also reccomend, if you want to actually get a good look at stuff in Rome, to go in the off-season. During the winter months tourism slows down a lot, so you would have better prices at hotels and restaurants, and way more opportunities to take in the sights (also go see Florence if anywhere else). Since I was with an academic group, we got to see things first hand and up close with a scholarly escort. The highlight of the entire tour of the Vatican was the priviledge to see the mausoleums under the foundations of St.Peter's Basilica that date back to Roman times. That is where the bones of St. Peter lay, and we were among the very few who were permitted to see them.

Anyways, that is all incredibly off topic so I apologize. I've pretty much said my piece about Swastikas on hobby models. It's a personal decision, and nobody is going to barge into your room and accost you for doing it. I am not the only person who thinks it is inappropriate, so be prepared to deal with those who take offense to such things.

To be honest after the first couple of post i was worried to post them i'll upload them tonight. After all it's art, and my interpretation on it so if you don't like it don't look at it and i'll take it down of a mod wants me too. pics to come tonight

Kroothawk wrote:Has to do with the fact that only Polish companies do Nazi orks and almost all Polish miniature companies do this. Incidently, the Germans=Nazis argument is the major election campaign theme of the nationalist party in the last two national elections. And two years ago, the Polish booth on the biggest German games fair had three board games: 2 fighting against the Germans and one fighting against the Russians. So anti-German toys are popular in that country. I am proud to say that I am not aware of any anti-Polish toys in Germany and that there is no market for such things.

I'm sorry, but I challenge your claims to Germany's moral high ground in regards to present-day nationalism.

Thare1774 wrote:@Lord_Vader- Once again, I have never said it wouldn't offend anybody. I said it shouldn't and I wouldn't care if it did.

Opinions and what offends people is extremely personal. I respect your right to offend people intentionally or not, and I respect your right to not care; those are your personal opinions. What I do find unreasonable is your expectation of what should and shouldn't shouldn't offend other people.

I'll put this as politely as I can: Who are you, or anyone else for that matter, to state what should and shouldn't offend people.

lord_blackfang wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:Has to do with the fact that only Polish companies do Nazi orks and almost all Polish miniature companies do this. Incidently, the Germans=Nazis argument is the major election campaign theme of the nationalist party in the last two national elections. And two years ago, the Polish booth on the biggest German games fair had three board games: 2 fighting against the Germans and one fighting against the Russians. So anti-German toys are popular in that country. I am proud to say that I am not aware of any anti-Polish toys in Germany and that there is no market for such things.

I'm sorry, but I challenge your claims to Germany's moral high ground in regards to present-day nationalism.

As far as I know, they didn't sell anti-Polish miniatures. And I can assure you that not all Germans are imprisoned right wing terrorists.

But do you want to deny that the major opposition in Poland thinks that they can win elections with a hate campaign against Germany for the second time in a row? That is quite unique in Europe, therefore I draw a connection to the fact that only Polish companies and most Polish companies produce these brutish Nazi Ork caricatures of their neighbors.

Germantoast wrote:To be honest after the first couple of post i was worried to post them i'll upload them tonight. After all it's art, and my interpretation on it so if you don't like it don't look at it and i'll take it down of a mod wants me too. pics to come tonight

Hey while there are people here on both sides of the debate about whether it's appropriate to make the miniatures, I don;t think anyone has said you're not allow to make them if you want to.

I'm you made them, post them. I may dislike the iconography, but I can still respect a job well done. And despite anyones opinions (including my own) this subsection of the forum is about Painting and Modeling, not politics.

Germantoast wrote:.

(on a side note i don't commend anything the Nazi's did, nor do i mean to upset anyone)

I am glad you put this part in, but remember, just saying you don't mean to upset anyone, some people will still be upset.

Well done mate, its a pretty slick paint job. They do resemble the german army.

As for the discussion that has kicked off due to this, i aint got no problem seeing an ork with a swastika on, as long as it resembles a germany army and the paint job is wonderful. After all, its only a work of art. As for playing a 'Nazi' army, i dont think thats a good idea. 1 or 2 models who were done for the sheer fun of if and used for display.

History has influenced us in many ways. Why not in the way we paint warhammer?

Nazis and the holocaust is not something to glorify. Swastikas are inappropriate in the game of 40k. many people lost family members from the holocaust and fighting the germans in world war 2. I think it's incredibly inappropriate to remind them of that while being engauged in an activity that is supposed to be a fun release.

I have just this to say... this post is not about painting in any manner it has become a monster political/religious debate... i vote it gets locked/moved elsewhere....