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Well, the removal of pre-existing conditions now let's me switch emplyers a bit easier without me having to worry about my family getting the coverage they need.
***Thats great and I support that. however it has nothing to do with Medicare, nor the theft that occurred.

In that context, I can see why Republicans oppose the HealthCare reform Act, considering their secondary goal (after defeating Obama in 2012) is to create cheap labor so you are greatful to your employer for any scraps they toss you. Allow me, and this is from someon who has previously stated he wants to look at the top 10 systems (including, potentially the UK -winking towards you Alby) take the best and go with that.
1. Robbing Medicare.
2. The multi thousand page monstroosity is a pork/crony capitalism bill. Favored companies get waivers. Favored states get waivers. Others don't
3. the multi thousand page fiasco takes the WORST parts of the US system - horrifying bureaucracy- and biggie sizes it.
4. Once you mandate coverage for everyone, and mandate they have to pay for it with isurance (unconstitutional) soon the government will start telling you how to act. WE've already started to see some of that.
4. Did I mention it was a multithousand page deal giving special benefits to some states and not others? Its exactly how you don't want to implement a proper system of universal coverage, which I support.

No major piece of social legislation has ever been successful on a partisan basis.

Choking on obamacare:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/choking-on-obamacare/2011/12/02/gIQAKDCXMO_story.html

Frazzled wrote:Thats such a lie I am foaming at the mouth. Mom's chemo was nearly $500 a treatment. When queried as Dad's treatment averaged $200 a pop, the Doc confirmed thats a change after Obama Care RAIDED MEDICARE OF $500BN. Mammograms were disconintued for older women and premium costs rose for Medicare supplemental plans because OBAMA CARE specifically pulled the money for those plans. If it weren't for me should would not have been able to afford it the multithousand dollar bill.

1.) Can you provide some sort of source indicating that chemo now costs more for women because of Obamacare? I can't find one, and I looked.
2.) What do mammograms have to do with chemo? Also, can you find a source that states that they aren't covered for older women? I sure cannot, and I looked.
3.) Why are the taxpayers footing any percentage of the bill for your mothers treatments? You're a Republican and you're against "socialized medicine". Why aren't you paying these prices 100% out of your bootstrappy pockets, and thanking god every day that you can do so instead of being forced into Medicare? Isn't that exactly what you wanted?


edit: corrected that link to Texas

Oh yeah, I don't like it much either. However, I think the idea is we now have a start, where before everyone* said their was a problem but then proceeded to do nothing,

I think you are right Frazzled, there is still a lot of stuff left to be doen to make US HealthCare even better.

I'm personally a fan of the French system.

*Everyone= Not really everyone.

Easy E wrote:Oh yeah, I don't like it much either. However, I think the idea is we now have a start, where before everyone* said their was a problem but then proceeded to do nothing,

I think you are right Frazzled, there is still a lot of stuff left to be doen to make US HealthCare even better.

I'm personally a fan of the French system.

*Everyone= Not really everyone.

French system? Its not wrong to be French? Heresy! Please provide more info on the French system as I am not familiar.
I've heard the Swiss system is particularly good.

Medical coverage. My wife is not happy her coverage creeped over 20 dollars or something. I'm going to say I might have stepped on something on my previous post. I fear the weiners

Can you provide some sort of source indicating that chemo now costs more for women because of Obamacare? I can't find one, and I looked.
***Other than my wallet? The same chemo deductible from my Dad vs. Mom (3 year time frame)

What do mammograms have to do with chemo? Also, can you find a source that states that they aren't covered for older women? I sure cannot, and I looked.
****Before the time of the internet there was something called actual experience. This came from my Mom’s and her friends’ doctors, not articile you found on the interwbs next to the latest 9/11 conspiracy. They also quit having them after that passed.

Why are the taxpayers footing any percentage of the bill for your mothers treatments?
****Medicare. Don’t be a sophistic (wow the filter didn't catch a word there).

You're a Republican and you're against "socialized medicine".
****A. I am not a Republican. B. I’ve already stated thoughts supporting universal healthcare.


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Jihadin wrote:Medical coverage. My wife is not happy her coverage creeped over 20 dollars or something. I'm going to say I might have stepped on something on my previous post. I fear the weiners

Ok, I'm referring to Medicare and Medicare supplementals (but yea mine's gone up too)

And you should (fear the wieners)

Frazzled wrote:Can you provide some sort of source indicating that chemo now costs more for women because of Obamacare? I can't find one, and I looked.
***Other than my wallet? The same chemo deductible from my Dad vs. Mom (3 year time frame)

What do mammograms have to do with chemo? Also, can you find a source that states that they aren't covered for older women? I sure cannot, and I looked.
****Before the time of the internet there was something called actual experience. This came from my Mom’s and her friends’ doctors, not articile you found on the interwbs next to the latest 9/11 conspiracy. They also quit having them after that passed.

OK, so you're essentially making this up on the fly, is what you're saying. No source at all, even in the face of the actual Medicare website showing you're full of it up to your eyeballs. Cool, just so we know where you stand.

No. I'm saying theat the sources are the people actually involved, not some "news" article by interested parties.

No way....no way in hell...are you going to get me to sing the Weiner Dog song....

Jihadin wrote:No way....no way in hell...are you going to get me to sing the Weiner Dog song....

This is where SERE training comes in handy.

Jihadin wrote:No way....no way in hell...are you going to get me to sing the Weiner Dog song....

Thats ok. Just remember when the Wiener Time comes, sing the song and they will know your cool. Waive a hand made flag with "Squirrels Suck!" and they will like you even better.

No way....no way in hell...are you going to get me to sing the Weiner Dog song....

I just did, its...addictive. lol

Thanks for the link frazz

The honor, is to serve.

Frazzled wrote:No. I'm saying theat the sources are the people actually involved, not some "news" article by interested parties.

You made a very specific claim, actually, 2 very specific claims. You said that your mom's chemo payments went up because Obamacare raided medicare (and your dad's did not), and that Medicare no longer pays for mammograms for older people. You have already ruled out the vagaries of her private insurance, her deductible, her lifetime cap, all that jazz - those are all non-factors in your claim. Specifically, Obamacare. So, if you're not making it up out of whole cloth, I'd really like to see at least one tiny shred of proof. Presumably this isn't some obscure section of the code that specifically and unambiguously only affects your mother, yes?

Your only defense of your rather outlandish statements was that "before the time of the internets, there was something called actual experience". Presumably we are talking about the dark days of February, 2010? Obamacare wasn't signed into law until March, so the "Obamacare raid" you claim happened must have been within the last year, yes?

Ouze wrote:

Frazzled wrote:No. I'm saying theat the sources are the people actually involved, not some "news" article by interested parties.

You made a very specific claim, actually, 2 very specific claims. You said that your mom's chemo payments went up because Obamacare raided medicare (and your dad's did not), and that Medicare no longer pays for mammograms for older people. You have already ruled out the vagaries of her private insurance, her deductible, her lifetime cap, all that jazz - those are all non-factors in your claim. Specifically, Obamacare. So, if you're not making it up out of whole cloth, I'd really like to see at least one tiny shred of proof. Presumably this isn't some obscure section of the code that specifically and unambiguously only affects your mother, yes?

Your only defense of your rather outlandish statements was that "before the time of the internets, there was something called actual experience". Presumably we are talking about the dark days of February, 2010? Obamacare wasn't signed into law until March, so the "Obamacare raid" you claim happened must have been within the last year, yes?

One tiny shred of proof - actual experience and the statements from their physicians. I trust them more than your crap yellow journalism. If thats not enough for you I couldn't give a flying feth.

"Actual experience" isn't proof. It's two words describing a nebulous and unstated event. Stop using it that way.

Don;t you know Fraz- things happening to you is only considered Anecdotal.

If I didn't know you better, I would think you had never been in an internet debate.

Here's the French System in a nutshell (and grossly oversimplified)

1. Private comapines can sell health insurance

2. The Government sets the prices of of all procedures instead on Insurance providers

3. These prices are publicly posted at all medical facilities.

4. People can then see exactly how much their insurance will cover, and know exactly how much will need to be paid.

5. Government regulates the Insurance industry, but also limits the profit they can make on Health Insurance.

6. All Medical data is connected with your ID Card, and goes from provider to provider, all providers are in network. You can choose the provider that you want to go to.

7. Insurance companies focus on using their Health insurance coverage to leverage people into other insurance coverage that they carry such as life, property, etc. Therefore, having people in your Health coverage gives you a competetive advantage for getting them into your other profitable lines of business.

ShumaGorath wrote:"Actual experience" isn't proof. It's two words describing a nebulous and unstated event. Stop using it that way.

It is proof when the argument is being made that medicare patients are paying less. When I have real actual evidence that it aint.

Stop using yellow journalism and creative accounting vs. whats actually happening on the ground.

I'd better leave this discussion. Its too personal and creative accounting is too nonsensical.

Fraz, saying "that's what my Doc told me" is worse than yellow journalism. where did he get his info? Limbaugh on the golf course?

alarmingrick wrote:Fraz, saying "that's what my Doc told me" is worse than yellow journalism. where did he get his info? Limbaugh on the golf course?

The deductibles paid and the reimbursements to doctors from Medicare. Nothing else changed.

Now lets all step back and remember $500Bn of the plan to pay for Obamacare is coming from Medicare. Its basic math people.

It is proof when the argument is being made that medicare patients are paying less. When I have real actual evidence that it aint.

Experience isn't proof because "experience" isn't transmissible on the internet. Try harder.

Since I'm a trigger puller thats also a Power Point Ranger. Is Tricare similiar to ObamaCare? As in price setting?

Frazzled wrote:Now lets all step back and remember $500Bn of the plan to pay for Obamacare is coming from Medicare. Its basic math people.

Isn't some of that money supposed to go towards helping towards college loans also or has that been debunked?

This is why I rarely get off into discussions like these. We each have our views and contrary to efforts from both sides we usually do not change our views. Anyone trying to prove a point can make numbers say whatever they want them to say. Anyone with a counter point can usually take the same numbers and make them prove their side. Meanwhile we are stuck in the middle having to pay for the whole thing.


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Jihadin wrote:Since I'm a trigger puller thats also a Power Point Ranger. Is Tricare similiar to ObamaCare? As in price setting?

Not sure on the price setting, but my dad is retired US Army and he has Tricare. It paid every bit of his back surgery and rehab two months ago.

With Tricare though the price is set on procedures outside the VA. You have to locate a hospital that would accept Tricare. Some private practice doctors do not accept Tricare.

The US is kind of screwed up, because we have different Insurance for different people.

For example, in the UK everyone uses the NHS. In France, everyoen is governed by the French system. Japan, likewise.

In the US, the military gets something closer to the NHS. People on Medicare/Medicaid get something closer to the Canadian system. If you are employed you get something closer to the Swiss system (IIRC), and if you do not have insurance you get something like the 3rd World system (i.e. Pay-to-Play).

If we just decided on one system for everyone, things would go a lot smoother.

Easy E wrote:The US is kind of screwed up, because we have different Insurance for different people.

For example, in the UK everyone uses the NHS. In France, everyoen is governed by the French system. Japan, likewise.

In the US, the military gets something closer to the NHS. People on Medicare/Medicaid get something closer to the Canadian system. If you are employed you get something closer to the Swiss system (IIRC), and if you do not have insurance you get something like the 3rd World system (i.e. Pay-to-Play).

If we just decided on one system for everyone, things would go a lot smoother.

Well the UK also has a private medical system if I recollect correctly. Canada is actually private witha single insured payer. Those are two different concepts.

i want the Swiss system for everyone at 3rd 1940s prices. If I can't get that I wan tthe next closest to that.

Frazzled wrote:Thats such a lie I am foaming at the mouth. Mom's chemo was nearly $500 a treatment. When queried as Dad's treatment averaged $200 a pop, the Doc confirmed thats a change after Obama Care RAIDED MEDICARE OF $500BN. Mammograms were disconintued for older women and premium costs rose for Medicare supplemental plans because OBAMA CARE specifically pulled the money for those plans. If it weren't for me should would not have been able to afford it the multithousand dollar bill.

The author is a liar. People who support this argument with false facts are liars and charlatans who don't have a clue. Flat out liars and they are on the list of people who can suck my .

Note: The above is not directed at Sebster or any other poster on this board, unless they are cats, of course, then they deserve to die. The wiener dogs wish it so.

That other elements of healthcare might have become more expensive, or unavailable does not mean that the reforms in the given area are a lie.

If you could find an article that summarises and confirms your anecdotes, I think it'd be a useful addition to the thread.


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Frazzled wrote:Now lets all step back and remember $500Bn of the plan to pay for Obamacare is coming from Medicare. Its basic math people.

Except that $500 billion is projected savings from increased efficiencies. So things like my story in the OP, negotiating for reduced costs for name brand drugs.

There's a reasonable argument to be made that the savings won't happen (there is certainly plenty to be saved from healthcare as it exists now, but one could plausibly argue that it won't happen), but there isn't much of an argument that medicare services will be cut, because that's not how the $500 billion is to be made up.


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Frazzled wrote:Well the UK also has a private medical system if I recollect correctly. Canada is actually private witha single insured payer. Those are two different concepts.

Yeah, the UK has a base level of healthcare guaranteed for everyone, and then if you want better treatment (basically nicer hospital beds and reduced waiting lists for non-emergency care) then you can take out your own coverage. This is a solid system, because it still allows anyone who wants to pay more for better treatment to do so, while also giving incentive to private insurers to get their act together and offer a service that people actually want, because they don't have a captive market (no matter how expensive and unreliable private insurers in the US are, people still need to pick one of them because the alternative is risking bankruptcy when you get sick).

A system like that was heavily backed by the left wing of the Democrat party, but thte blue dogs refused, and with no votes coming from the Republicans, it was never going to get up. Shame, really.

I have no idea how anyone operates under anything else other than the UK system.

When someone has an accident in the Uk, the first thing you think is "I hope he/she will be ok" then they go have the best care we can provide.

I've been to the US a few times, and when someone gets into a scrape, the first thing you think is "Wow, I hope they have enough money to cover that"

It's sick

Bongo_clive wrote:It's sick

No, the trick is to not get sick.... ever.