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Joey wrote:Appeal to authority?

So?

Ahtman wrote:

Joey wrote:Appeal to authority?

So?

'Have no respect whatsoever for authority; forget who said it and instead look what he starts with, where he ends up, and ask yourself, "Is it reasonable?"'
Newspaper editors are not exactly an "authority". Even if they were it'd be irrelevant.

Joey wrote:
Appeal to authority?

Not automatically a bad thing. If your car is fethed you take it to a mechanic, if he tells me the starter motor is shagged I'm not going to phone my mother in law up for a second opinion am I?

The Economist is an excellent, world renowned publication famous for it's relatively impartial reporting and opinions on world events. If they say that Cameron was pushed towards this position and he took the right and possibly only logical decision, that is better for me than some random bloke on a wargaming website.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Joey wrote:

Ahtman wrote:

Joey wrote:Appeal to authority?

So?

'Have no respect whatsoever for authority; forget who said it and instead look what he starts with, where he ends up, and ask yourself, "Is it reasonable?"'
Newspaper editors are not exactly an "authority". Even if they were it'd be irrelevant.

Er...

So, an appeal to authority is bad, because Richard Feynman said so and HE knows better than everyone else?

Delightful!

mattyrm wrote:

Joey wrote:
Appeal to authority?

Not automatically a bad thing. If your car is fethed you take it to a mechanic, if he tells me the starter motor is shagged I'm not going to phone my mother in law up for a second opinion am I?

The Economist is an excellent, world renowned publication famous for it's relatively impartial reporting and opinions on world events. If they say that Cameron was pushed towards this position and he took the right and possibly only logical decision, that is better for me than some random bloke on a wargaming website.

The Economists has a very specific outlook on what is considered "good" and "bad". A few thousand people in the city making millions does not an economy make.

mattyrm wrote:

Er...

So, an appeal to authority is bad, because Richard Feynman said so and HE knows better than everyone else?

Delightful!

Sure why not

mattyrm wrote: So, an appeal to authority is bad, because Richard Feynman said so and HE knows better than everyone else?

Delightful!

I actually "loled" at this.

Joey wrote:

mattyrm wrote: Mr Cameron's decision has been backed up by The Economist, The Times, The Telegraph, and even the ridiculously anti Tory Guardian has been less than scathing in its criticism.

Basically, all of said writers have far more credibility than Joey.

As a result, I think it is fair to say that this is non other than an intellectually vapid name calling exercise because he doesn't like the bloke. Arent you the same bloke who called him "spineless" last week but couldn't actually give a reason why he was? No doubt if he hadnt used the power of veto he would have been "spineless" but because he did he is an idiot.

Appeal to authority? Okay here's off the top of my head Will Hutton and Vince Cable, economists, not newspaper editors, are both pro-Europe. In fact the entire Liberal Democrat party are.
Anything that happens in Europe would have happened with or without the Euro. If the Italian government defaults on its loans to French banks, those banks will go bust Euro or not. An uncompetative private sector in Greece may be bad for the Greeks but it's not going to lower the value of German and French goods.




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obsidianaura wrote:Bottom line is the City of London is what keeps the UK running, anything that threatens that is to be avoided wherever possible. It’s almost like this tax was designed to get London to pay for the Euro.

That's because the economy outside of financial services has been underinvested and is globally uncompetative. If we weren't reliant on the city's tax revenue we might be able to institute proper regulation.

I agree completely with what you're saying here. We shouldn't be so reliant. It's great that we have the city but it's terrible that we don’t have other things to fall back on.

The trouble is we are where we are now, so we can’t afford to damage the City when it's what we're dependant on now.

I'm not sure what we can do to balance the economy though. We can’t compete on manufacturing. We have the 2nd highest minimum wage in the world. China will always out compete us there.

Joey wrote:Appeal to authority? Okay here's off the top of my head Will Hutton and Vince Cable, economists, not newspaper editors, are both pro-Europe. In fact the entire Liberal Democrat party are.

If anything, that should be an argument against following their thoughts on this, they have an invested interest in seeing the European hegemony.

Anything that happens in Europe would have happened with or without the Euro.

So...you're saying that even if Germany wasn't tied to Greece economically, they'd still be bailing them out? Doubtful.

If the Italian government defaults on its loans to French banks, those banks will go bust Euro or not. An uncompetative private sector in Greece may be bad for the Greeks but it's not going to lower the value of German and French goods.

No, but a busy governemnt on the same currency as a financially stable one makes the financially stable one unstable. That's the problem.

That's because the economy outside of financial services has been underinvested and is globally uncompetative. If we weren't reliant on the city's tax revenue we might be able to institute proper regulation.

We tried it your way forty years ago, where we had half a dozen manufacturing industries being heavily subsidised by the government. It drove this country to the brink of economic ruin. Are you seriously suggesting we return to that?

Joey wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Europe is about to emerge as a super-power on our doorstep

You are quite the optimist.

Eurozone combined population-330 million (USA-312 million)
combined economy-€9.2 trillion (USA €11.2 billion)
If the Germans get their way in Europe all the rubbish periphery countries (Greece, Spain, Portugal) will become more competative or thrown out of the euro.
There's also a shed load of Eastern European nations, Poland being the largest, that have massive potential for growth and are obliged to join the Euro soon.

Thats all well and good, and if the Euro is around in six months the Eurozone could go right back to it's standard growth patterns and the touting of a pan european hegemonic identity. If it's around in six months. As it is, little is being done to shore up the failing member states and austerity isn't solving the issues.

Goddammnit Shuma I hate it when you have valid points, and even more so when I agree with them.
Take your well reasoned statements back to whence thou came!

Personally I never had any favour with Europe and going by media coverage, the Germans are taking over anyway Which wouldn't surprise me either since I don't think that little niggle from what sparked WW1 ever left after WW2 No, I'd rather Britain was out of the Euro. It's pretty much a dud currency anyway - I would've thought a wiser move for most of the nations in the Euro (not us luckily ) to pla reintroducing their previous currencies because once the Euro goes, there goes your economy.

It's funny that the two news articles I've read on this had zero material on the actual provisions Cameron objected to. I've learnt a lot more from this thread than the news.

It's pretty rich the level of offense the EU diplomats seem to be taking to the UK not giving up everything for the Euro currency.

Aye, tbh I don't trust any of them. It oddly reminds me of Fifa, where the main power is held by a select group of 'Europeans' and we are barely tolerated on the sidelines.

It almost feels like they are looking for us to trip, or fall apart, and to be brutaly honest, I'd rather we risked it without them. I'm with Mr Hyena, the trade pact was fine, the idea we should be one big superpower, no thanks.

Then add to it the many programs and stories I've seen about the courruption of the EU parliment, that would be like sitting Everest next to Ben Nevis when compared to our own Goverments expenses scandals, I just lament on the money that is wasted to these other nation politicians who really don't give two figs about us.

mattyrm wrote: Mr Cameron's decision has been backed up by The Economist, The Times, The Telegraph, and even the ridiculously anti Tory Guardian has been less than scathing in its criticism.

Basically, all of said writers have far more credibility than Joey.

As a result, I think it is fair to say that this is non other than an intellectually vapid name calling exercise because he doesn't like the bloke. Arent you the same bloke who called him "spineless" last week but couldn't actually give a reason why he was? No doubt if he hadnt used the power of veto he would have been "spineless" but because he did he is an idiot.

It is as laughably ridiculous and the ultra right wing Americans blasting Obama as "weak" on Tuesday and "too heavy handed" on Thursday, so I vote we no longer even debate the topic and start a new one.

I vote for...er..

Monster Munch, the best corn based snack of the century?

I always liked Monster munch but i feel Doritos have more versatility in flavour...
On-topic: I agree with the general idea that the treaty seems to screw us over something awful...

As an American, I'm not remotely well-versed in this issue - I have a hazy recollection of a land mass across the pond called Europe, but that's about it. On the other hand, I caught Cameron answering questions about it during something that I believe is called "Prime Minister's Question-And-Answer Time" on C-SPAN as I was driving around today, and I have to say, that's an amazing tradition. We need that gak over here. How often does that happen? And why does everyone yell?

Pretty much every week while parliment is in session, seaward.

I've watched far too many of them than I'd care to admit. Sky News and BBC News are often on in the home, we've always been interested in whats going on in the world.

As to the 'yelling' its just something that is 'done' regarding parliment.

mattyrm wrote:

Joey wrote:
Appeal to authority?

Not automatically a bad thing. If your car is fethed you take it to a mechanic, if he tells me the starter motor is shagged I'm not going to phone my mother in law up for a second opinion am I?

The Economist is an excellent, world renowned publication famous for it's relatively impartial reporting and opinions on world events. If they say that Cameron was pushed towards this position and he took the right and possibly only logical decision, that is better for me than some random bloke on a wargaming website.

The Economist's analysis was far from a ringing endorsement of Cameron. They basically said he couldn't do anything else, because he allowed himself to be manoeuvered into a weak position. Partly due to historical Conservative anti-EU sentiments.

That said, we can't build a time machine, go back 30 years and undo the past, and we have to move on from where we are now.

We can't ignore the Euro because Eurozone countries buy 40% of our exports. Also, British banks have a considerable exposure to Euro bonds. Thus it is in our best interests to help the Euro zone avoid a disastrous default.

At the same time, the UK is the second or third largest economy in the EU so economically we swing a lot more weight than places like Norway, Slovenia and Austria. Even the French would rather have us inside the tent pissing out than outside the tent pissing in.

What Cameron should have done IMO was to say the proposals were very interesting and he looked forward to discussing them with government and industry leaders. That would hopefully have bought time for Cameron to make contact with the other non-Euro countries and start to build an alternative approach.

His key mistake was to get himself isolated.

Kilkrazy wrote:

The Economist's analysis was far from a ringing endorsement of Cameron. They basically said he couldn't do anything else, because he allowed himself to be manoeuvered into a weak position. Partly due to historical Conservative anti-EU sentiments.

That said, we can't build a time machine, go back 30 years and undo the past, and we have to move on from where we are now.

Of course, I didn't say it was a ringing endorsement, I said it pretty much exactly what you said!

mattyrm wrote:"If they say that Cameron was pushed towards this position and he took the right and possibly only logical decision, that is better for me than some random bloke on a wargaming website.

I don't know enough about the situation other than the article Melissa posted, the front page of the Times and the Telegraph today, and the good old BBC website. My point was simply that he may have made some errors, but no reputable news organisation or publication that I have yet seen has laucnhed a full blown scathing criticism of Cameron, not even the Guardian which is as left of centre as we tend to get before we start going into wackyland. And as a result saying he is "utterly incompetent" is flat out ridiculous, and is merely character assassination because of an individuals personal dislike.

I mean, I loathe plenty of people in politics, but I don't resort to the childish level of making ill informed obviously biased threads to basically call them names. I mean, sure I might chip in with a few choice insults during a thread, but I don't start one for the sole reason when there is nothing to discuss, otherwise the IRA supporting Red Ken Livingstone would be getting a thread on a weekly basis!

I don't think he is incompetent, but I think he (and Sarkozy and Merkel, and all the other leaders involved) are far more concerned with how things are going to play at home than with a sensible solution, and if anything will be the doom of the Euro, that's what will be.

It makes me pretty angry.

Matty, It was me who called Cameron spinless last week, and I'm calling him spineless again this week!
It's clear that a mojority of people in the UK (myself included) want the UK out of the current EU, but Cameron hasn't got the guts to call a referendum.
This is not an anti-European rant. Europe is a great continent, full of great people, history and culture. But the EU in it's current form is corrupt, bloated and a serious threat to democracy. You may have a similar argument about the UK, but at least the people of the UK (if they could be bothered) can change this situation. If power is transfered to some faceless technocrat in Brussels, then the people of this great isalnd, become disenfranchised. Look to Greece and Italy for blantant examples of taking power from the people.
France and Germany have been running the show for too long, and it doesn't take a history teacher to know that the British people will never allow Paris or Berlin to impose a tax on one of their main industries. I seem to recall that the last country who tried taxing another country without giving them a say , had to resort to hiring Hessian mercenaries to fight for them.

Historically, we've always been a nation of traders and innovators. Britian could survive without the EU. We sell more to them, than they do to us, plus is anybody in their right mind trying to tell me that the EU would turn it's back on the 5th largest economy in the world? Japan has no trouble selling stuff to Europe.

Cameron should call a referendum, but he won't. Instead, maybe we should play the Germans at their own game. Let's propose a tax on the car making industry, and see how much of a fuss is kicked up, becuase that's what they tried to do to the UK.

Finally, to all Americans replying on this thread. You guys turned your back on the greatest nation on earth, so you have no say.

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:You guys turned your back on the greatest nation on earth, so you have no say.

I don't know what you mean, we are on friendly terms with Japan.

Ahtman wrote:

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:You guys turned your back on the greatest nation on earth, so you have no say.

I don't know what you mean, we are on friendly terms with Japan.

Zing!

Kilkrazy wrote:

At the same time, the UK is the second or third largest economy in the EU so economically we swing a lot more weight than places like Norway, Slovenia and Austria. Even the French would rather have us inside the tent pissing out than outside the tent pissing in.

True, especially considering Norway isn't even in the EU to start with...

Also, IIRC, Norway's one of the few countries in the world that doesn't have a national debt. Their GDP/capita is enormously high.

Finally, to all Americans replying on this thread. You guys turned your back on the greatest nation on earth, so you have no say.

We spun in a circle? How do you turn your back on yourself?

mattyrm wrote:
I don't know enough about the situation other than the article Melissa posted, the front page of the Times and the Telegraph today, and the good old BBC website. My point was simply that he may have made some errors, but no reputable news organisation or publication that I have yet seen has laucnhed a full blown scathing criticism of Cameron, not even the Guardian which is as left of centre as we tend to get before we start going into wackyland. And as a result saying he is "utterly incompetent" is flat out ridiculous, and is merely character assassination because of an individuals personal dislike.

I mean, I loathe plenty of people in politics, but I don't resort to the childish level of making ill informed obviously biased threads to basically call them names. I mean, sure I might chip in with a few choice insults during a thread, but I don't start one for the sole reason when there is nothing to discuss, otherwise the IRA supporting Red Ken Livingstone would be getting a thread on a weekly basis!

The Guardian is left-wing compared to the Daily Mail but it's more of a North London liberal attitude than actually left-wing.
David Cameron was just throwing the toys out of the pram because the right wing press stir up hatred against anything with "European" in the name, so he has to troll Europe. The Europeans will remember this, let's just hope we never need their help.

He wasn't trolling Europe, he was acting in the best interest of his country.

Europe isn't exactly very stable right now.

Melissia wrote:He wasn't trolling Europe, he was acting in the best interest of his country.

Europe isn't exactly very stable right now.

So how does being a dick to our biggest trading partner help things? The financial crisis won't last forever. We'll weather the storm, with or without southern Europe, and after that Britain will need all the European goodwill it can get.

Joey wrote:So how does being a dick to our biggest trading partner help things?

It doesn't ,but that wasn't what he was doing.

He was. Europeans now have contempt for Britain, Cameron makes a show of going to summits but in reality they want nothing to do with him and he doesn't actually do anything.

Joey wrote:Europeans now have contempt for Britain,

This is somehow different from before... how?

"Europeans" have contempt for a lot of things. Americans, British, Muslims, Jews... course, since you're probably thinking the entirety of Europe and I'm only referring to small subsections, meh?

I mean the governments of those countries. The UK tries to look like it's at the heart of Europe, while making a song and dance about how they want Europe to leave them alone.