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Mannahnin wrote:Can anyone speak to the incident with the helicopter gunship and Ellsberg's comments about it being a war crime?

I only know what I saw on the internets, but I certainly didn't see evidence of a war crime. Mistakes, friendly fire, and collateral damage are all going to be an expected and natural part of any armed conflict, as they have been for every other conflict in history. So far as I know, that was the only real major leak that Manning released. If I'm wrong, please correct me. I do think that exposing war crimes that have been covered up would be a heroic thing, I just don't think that's what actually happened here.

I will say, that while I don't feel a lot of sympathy for Bradley Manning, I feel awful about the fact that he's on trial, and guys like John Yoo are walking around free and clear, not a care in the world.

Watched the whole thing. Don't really know what to say. They zoomed in on the children, but I don't they that would have been discernible from a moving helicopter while the focus was clearly on the men picking up bodies.

All I can say is that I'm glad we're finally out of there.

Go ahead and sit in that gunship and have fun distinguishing a camera from a weapon at that range.
To be honest I cant believe the way people talk about this. Yes, its a tragedy. No, its most certainly not a war crime. Had the gunner been mowing down civilians and laughing while he shot at the dead bodies, we would have a problem right there. But theres a difference between that, and civilians being caught in the line of fire because they look hostile, and you think theyre going to kill you.

Go ahead and sit in that gunship and have fun distinguishing a camera from a weapon at that range.
To be honest I cant believe the way people talk about this. Yes, its a War Crime No, its most certainly not a Tragedy. Had the gunner been mowing down civilians and laughing while he shot at the dead bodies, we would have a problem right there. But theres a difference between that, and civilians being caught in the line of fire because they look hostile, and you think theyre going to kill you.

Fixed that for you.

The group of people was certainly acting... odd. I wouldn't have imagined it was a camera crew if I was up in the helo eyeballing them. Then the truck showed up, and again, if I was in the crew's position, I could easily see that as a threat.

I think it's right that videos like that can be seen. People need to have an understanding of what war is.

As to whether it was a war crime or not, I don't know. It was pretty harrowing viewing though.

Edit: I will say that correctly identifying threats is a major part of a soldier's job though, and those guys messed up and don't need excuses made for them.

Bradley Manning should be tried as a traitor. Let a jury decide his fate.

As a helicopter pilot myself, I can absolutely tell you that a man holding a camera can look ALOT like a man holding a gun. In a volatile region of Iraq, I can certainly see why they would think "gun" instead of "camera." Everyone here playing armchair general can take a step back and think about what YOU would do when the lives of your crew and your buddies in on the line as opposed to a guy you think has a gun.

Bradley Manning released tons of classified information that clearly wasn't about exposing a war crime. Showing one video as evidence of his righteousness still doesn't excuse him from 10,000 acts of violating orders, exposing government secrets, endangering the lives (if not costing the lives) of allies and US service members, and aiding and abetting the enemy.

Sgt_Scruffy wrote:
Bradley Manning released tons of classified information that clearly wasn't about exposing a war crime. Showing one video as evidence of his righteousness still doesn't excuse him from 10,000 acts of violating orders, exposing government secrets, endangering the lives (if not costing the lives) of allies and US service members, and aiding and abetting the enemy.

From what I understand of wikileaks, and by extension Manning, it was more a case of exposing how much crap the government classifies in what might be considered an unwarranted manner than about war crimes.

Pyriel- wrote:Murdog, you just sound like shuma. To you it really doesnt matter if people will get exposed, cought, murdered and tortured painfully in ME cellars as long as your oh so moral high horses are upheld by a little whistle blowing.
Absolutely disgusting!

You misunderstand me. Of course it matters to me 'if people will get exposed, caught, murdered and tortured painfully in ME cellars'. That has not been shown to be the case with leaked information from WikiLeaks. However, it has been shown to be the case, with help from WikiLeaks, that the US government has supported the regimes that do exactly that, indeed the CIA's rendition program is widely known to have sent innocent people to those places, without charges or trials. You seem to think its more important to punish a person who MAY have endangered some people than to hold to account those that actually HAVE endangered people. Maybe my seeing it the other way around disgusts you, so be it.

I wouldn't call the release of 250 000 documents, exposing corruption and warcrimes, 'a little whistle blowing', more like the biggest whistleblowing case in US history.

Interesting how people can't use their credit cards to donate to WikiLeaks yet they can donate to well known and I'm sure some lesser known domestic subversive groups and terrorist organizations within the US. Something is definitely "messed up" with the system.

Daniel Ellsberg speaks out about Bradley Manning:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
Considering that the so-called "terrorists" in Iraq and Afghanistan are either political revolutionaries, petty warlords, or the local equivalent of street gangs, no, nothing we've done has really done much to promote their growth, aside from arming the Afghan warlords back in the eighties, when they were fighting the Soviets .

Well, and arming the Iraqis (and the Iranians) during their war with Iran.

Then there's the whole "destroy the public works infrastructure in large Iraqi cities" part of the invasion of Iraq.

And the assumption of the previous Administration, during the early days of the war, that taking large population centers would eliminate resistance (instead of simply forcing it to other parts of the country).

Oh, and creating large no-fly zones which limited Saddam's ability to exert control over ~2/3 of Iraqi territory, producing relatively strong opposition factions.

Sasori wrote:
I know you've had OPSEC briefings before, and after your UAV spill, I would hope you'd be a bit more guarded about this kind of stuff. This post isn't as big a deal as the UAV one, but please try to be a little bit more cautious about posting information like this.

As I remember the only thing he said was that UAVs were controlled by SINGARS, easily corrected using open source information. So he didn't "spill" anything and IIRC redacted the incorrect statement. Or are we referring to some other thread.

Not to mention the killings of innocent civilians (including whole wedding parties at a time), the waterboarding of prisoners, the treatment of prisoners at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo - I guess none of that has anything to do with the recruitment potential for terrorists and insurgents.

3000+ killed by drones around the world, including 175 children - no, nothing to do with growing resistance to US policies.

Support for repressive regimes - nothing to do with it.

Why do they hate us?

murdog wrote:
3000+ killed by drones around the world, including 175 children - no, nothing to do with growing resistance to US policies.

Truthfully, that's a very small number. But then, the number of civilians killed on 9/11 was similar, and when bin Laden was killed there was dancing in the street.

If nothing else it points to the human tendency to object to the death of humans they believe themselves to be affiliated with, even if any possible affiliation is only tenuous.

Oh, and the inability to attribute that characteristic to people with whom they are not affiliated.

Murdog is totally right, we need to go back to sticks and stones.

When did I say that?

murdog wrote:When did I say that?

I'm totally putting words in your mouth, epic words.

Although the profoundness of a Canadain declaring a traitor to the United States an American hero is so deep.

Just because the documents he released weren't/aren't critical doesn't mean he was the person to decide to release them. Not his call to make, ignoring completely his obligations as a soldier, his read on to any secure information made him a criminal regardless. I don't feel bad for him.

My only interest in this particular tale is the degree to which it illustrates two things:

1) The degree to which the military leverages its political position in order to protect its own, much as police do.

2) Classification creep, or the increasing tendency of the state to classify things that it deems unfavorable with respect to the populace. This isn't necessarily bad, but we live in an era of easy publishing, and decreasing nationalism, so it is perhaps naive.

Lets talk about my being a Canadian commenting this way, then, since its been brought up.

First of all, I wouldn't trust those little flags anyways - I've heard of Blackberrys showing up Canadian, and there are many Americans working and going to school in Canada, and vice-versa. Who's to say there aren't canucks hiding behind some of those yankee flags? And why does the flag matter anyways?

In any case, I am a Canadian. Of course I've been bombarded with American culture since birth - my first words were lyrics to Niel Diamond. I've watched your TV shows and movies, listened to your music, and read your books. I've had the opportunity to travel extensively in the US. My mother married an American. My brother is a scientist at an American university. I've studied the US at university.

My interests and connections in the US are both personal and academic. But it goes further than that. As a Canadian, my long-term security, and more importantly that of my children, is very much tied to what happens south of the border. The US is Canada's chief ally and biggest trading partner. What the US government does affects my life. I care about what happens there.

So when I call Manning an American Hero, I'm not doing so flippantly. I truly believe that showing the world that information was the right thing to do, and that it has brought far more good than bad. Maybe he technically is a traitor to the US government, but in my view he is not a traitor to the american people, or the people of the world.

And if he doesn't have a square jaw and bulging muscles, he at least had the balls to do what he thought was right, in the face of overwhelming power. He's taken what they've dished out and still walks around with his chin up. I've seen no evidence that he was in the pay of a foreign power, or that he seeks fame (or infamy). Doesn't the American Hero fight for right, selflessly, and against all odds?

That man needs life in Prison in the worse hellhole possible at the bare minimum.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

murdog wrote:Not to mention the killings of innocent civilians (including whole wedding parties at a time), the waterboarding of prisoners, the treatment of prisoners at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo - I guess none of that has anything to do with the recruitment potential for terrorists and insurgents.

3000+ killed by drones around the world, including 175 children - no, nothing to do with growing resistance to US policies.

Support for repressive regimes - nothing to do with it.

Why do they hate us?

Do you support the theory of Obama Deception as well?

Not familiar, fill me in...

murdog wrote:Not familiar, fill me in...

Here it is:

It is basically propaganda against the USA and the suppose "NWO".

Kim Il Jong; national hero or vile dictator?

You're not allowed to comment unless you are North Korean, except if you agree with the dominant opinion.

murdog wrote:Maybe he technically is a traitor to the US government, but in my view he is not a traitor to the american people, or the people of the world.

I believe there's a precedent of some sort for this.


You are as all of us are, entitled to your own opinion. I would stray in the future from describing how Canadian you are whilst telling me that a man who gives up my State's secrets is a national hero. I'm sure someone in Russia (I wouldnt bet on it) thinks Robert Hanssen is an American Hero.
If you think he's brave and courageous and you honor him for his nobility, he can be your hero. I won't try to dissuade you. You can pattern your life after him, join the Canadian Army, steal and release classified documents, go wild. I'll be honest though:I probably wont consider you a Canadian hero. And I watched Due South, I'm and expert!

AustonT wrote:If you think he's brave and courageous and you honor him for his nobility, he can be your hero. I won't try to dissuade you. You can pattern your life after him, join the Canadian Army, steal and release classified documents, go wild. I'll be honest though:I probably wont consider you a Canadian hero. And I watched Due South, I'm and expert!

If he releases documents showing corruption/cover ups/etc, etc, then I would consider him, well, probably not a hero, but certainly someone doing something right. After all, all it takes for evil to flourish is for good people to do nothing. I say this as an Englishman who does not even like tea!

Oh, wait, my nationality makes no difference as to whether I can comment on what I perceive to be right and wrong!

SilverMK2 wrote:

Oh, wait, my nationality makes no difference as to whether I can comment on what I perceive to be right and wrong!

When treason is involved nationality becomes such an important issue.

AustonT wrote:When treason is involved nationality becomes such an important issue.

Not appreciably, no. If someone from the US were to take a shot at the US el-presidente, that would be as much "treason" as if someone from the UK stuffed a corgie full of explosives and tried to blow up the Queen and I could be a Frenchman and still think the two crimes are the same, that both are treasonous. If someone tried to kill some horrible dictator ruling over their country, that would be treason too, though possibly "morally correct" from our point of view. My nationality has no bearing on my ability to think of something as treasonous.

Some guy releasing embarrassing (for the nation) information that they would rather keep quiet about; illegal detentions, sending people off on lovely torture holidays (you know, things that are illegal and if done in the open would rightly bring down scorn and condemnation from the rest of the world; especially since the USA holds itself up as some kind of beacon, the shining light of the free world), etc, should be heralded by the people of whatever country it happens to as a wake up call as to how the politicians/government/etc are abusing their positions and that the people need to get wise to what is happening and demand change.

I can't say I have gone through all the stuff that was released, but as has been mentioned a few times when people have asked what damage this information release has done in terms of lives lost etc; any proof of this? Or is the outrage over loss of face blinding you to the fact that no real actual harm was done, and the actual issues that have been raised with how certain elements of your nation are behaving?

AustonT wrote: And I watched Due South, I'm and expert!

Were all Canadian at heart, because EVERYONE watched Due South!

Going to comment on the video. By releasing that video the investigation against the pilots is pretty much shot to pieces. There's a reason its secured.

I'm in the anti-manning camp simply because I think its a dishonourable thing to do. If I take the Queens shilling then I'm her man. I like to think that I would rather die on the losing side than switch teams if things are going ill or if a foreign power offered me money or something, and I just feel the same applies here.

If you become an intelligence analyst and get clearance to access top secret documents, you have signed the official secrets act and been interviewed several times to ascertain your infallibility in this matter, and I know because I was cleared to Top Secret (The process is known as DV in the UK, I believe it stands for Developed Vetting). Some bloke interviewed me twice, and he also turned up at two of my friends houses back home and asked questions about me. The reason they do this exhaustive background check is to ascertain whether or not you may be an intelligence risk, for example if you display a gambling habit or you are in heavy debt, you are likely to be refused clearance as they believe you are more susceptible to bribery or foreign influence.

Anyway, I think that if you have signed on the dotted line and agreed your service then you have gave your word that your going to play ball. If you feel that the government or military is morally reprehensible then the honourable thing to do is to put your notice in and leave your post, not blab everything to the press. I simply feel it was an extremely ignoble thing to.

I don't feel that strongly about it, I don't think that the lad wants the electric chair or 30 years inside or anything, but he warrants punishment because thems the rules. You can argue that he was extremely brave for doing what he did when he was aware of the consequences, but I definitely feel selling your honour so cheaply impacts negatively on your character, not positively.

YMMV of course..

Jihadin wrote:Going to comment on the video. By releasing that video the investigation against the pilots is pretty much shot to pieces. There's a reason its secured.

When did the investigation start?