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I'm sure JY2 is going to catch some crazy break like he will pass shrouding and get the 3++ or just make like 20 4++ saves and proceed to wipe out the eldar the next turn, this is starting to be like watching the same old delta force movie where chuck norris just kicks the crap out of everyone. Will the Paladins win!!!?? Does Chuck Norris usually roundhouse his enemy!!??? Watch and find out!!

While your having fun doing the Grey knight (most overpowered easy to run army in the game) battles I'd like to see one where you go up against a full Khornate daemon army with a couple blocks of 2++ save fleshhounds to tar pit the palies, could be a good watch.

IG88 wrote:(most overpowered easy to run army in the game)

lolno.

Wow, so many people haven't really read the report correctly. Eldrad and the DA started the game on the table, He did not move, disembark, move.

I also am surprised that he didn't use his tanks to screen his dragons for insurance, now if he flubs it all three units are toast.

In regards to the eldar list being tailored, I have to disagree, I have played against more then a couple all comers eldar lists that max dragons. Why shouldn't they at 16 points, they kill anything they want and in a mech build are much better then any other elite choice. .

Red Corsair wrote:I also am surprised that he didn't use his tanks to screen his dragons for insurance, now if he flubs it all three units are toast.

With the WaveSerpents' 'flying stands' so short, isn't LoS blocked? Several guys argued so at my store at 5e's beginning, such that I used my Eldar far less, and one more reason not to use tau (as this killed FoF).

Red Corsair wrote:Wow, so many people haven't really read the report correctly. Eldrad and the DA started the game on the table, He did not move, disembark, move.

I also am surprised that he didn't use his tanks to screen his dragons for insurance, now if he flubs it all three units are toast.

At the time, I remembered those lengthy debates about Paladin's number one weakness is losing moral, which could be be triggered from tank shock. I thought to myself, "what the hell? Might as well give it a shot..." Big mistake!

After losing the black Wave Serpent, it became really difficult balancing another skimmer on top of the downed wreckage and if I take another skimmer off its flight base, that's A: cheating and B: losing LOS to the Paladins. So now at this point in jy2's btrp, my Fire Dragons are left in the open.

To be continued!

... seriously? Tailored? If anything, that Eldar list is tailored to kill of Draigowing. Units of 10 Firedragons are massive overkill on every single tank that isn't a superheavy, they're completely excessive in most matchups aside from soaking up extra wounds. Against Pallies and MCs however, they come into their own.

Looks to be a good game, but I voted that Eldar massacre Draigowing

Eldrad is a complete troll for GKs.

Hah, took a lot of flak over the verbiage in that sentence!

To clarify: I have a very liberal definition of tailoring, as a result of playing many years with a guy who's standard practice was to look at the army you brought with you that day then choose the army he would play. Then tell you how awesome he was after he had picked your list's hard counter. It left me a little quick to jump the gun when using the phrase. I was using tailoring to mean bringing specific units not normally represented in your (the players) all comers army based on foreknowledge of your opponent.

I'm fully aware this is a much more liberal use of the word than most employ, but old practices (prejudice's?) die hard Didn't bother addressing saber's list because.....well it's the point of the battle isn't it?

Anywho, what I had intended to say with the sentence was I was disappointed to see jy2 diverge from what I assume is his all comers list. I was really eager to see how the list that has proven so successful lately (more akin to this ) fared against Fragons (stealing this word from now on) as I can't recall having seen any Fragon on Draigo action before. Theory hammer is nice, but blood is always better

SabrX went for more skimmers over upgrades. It adds up fast when trying to fit that many skimmers, Eldrad and 30 fire dragons.

Insofar as this is mostly a contest to see how many absolutely horrid Draigowing counters could be fit into one list and watch the mayhem , I'm with ya. Just felt compelled to point out stones/engines for serpents, as I believe a lot of players undervalue their usefulness.


Enough smoothing the ruffled feathers: Barring some catastrophic luck on Saber's part or divine intervention on jy2's part, Eldar should have it. Being able to hood off Doom isn't going to be nearly as useful as being able to hood guide would be. Should average to about 24 hits, with only 4 failing to wound. 20 ID wounds is gona hurt, even with a 3++. That being said, it looks like if they survive and don't break, Saber's looking at a nasty multi-assault if the gap doesn't get closed by the star engine serpent (which doesn't seem to be possible from the pic).

Battle report completed.


It is late so I will respond to posts here tomorrow. Thanks for reading!

Wow! Rough luck! In the middle it literally came down to a few dice rolls! I really expected the Eldar to take this one! Plus all those serpents blowing themselves up, ouch!

Great rep, this was probably my fav so far!

For all those who voted "This game was a total fluke as Draigowing ekes out the win." congrats.

This was one of those games where even with a strong list, ill luck sealed my defeat. Lady luck sure is fickle. I still can't believe I failed 3 re-rollable cover saves on Eldrad's Wave Serpent when it mattered the most...

This was quite a winnable game for the Eldar player.

Yes Paladins can be hurt by tank shocks, but they should only be used as a last resort, and the same goes for ramming. With that many fire dragons it was not necessary. It was like you were handed a rifle with a bayonet at the end and you were told that people can be killed by the bayonet, so you tried to use it forgetting that the best way to kill them is to shoot them.

The Eldar player should have:

Only tank shock when necessary

When tank shocking, only clip the unit and not fly over a hammer

Use Mindwar to take out the librarian (and anyone else).

At the end Fortune Eldrad and tarpit Draigo or Paladins.

Take out the GK vehicles with elder missile launchers and fire prisms.

A lot less ramming and more getting behind them for rear shots.

Blackmoor wrote:This was quite a winnable game for the Eldar player.

Yes Paladins can be hurt by tank shocks, but they should only be used as a last resort, and the same goes for ramming. With that many fire dragons it was not necessary. It was like you were handed a rifle with a bayonet at the end and you were told that people can be killed by the bayonet, so you tried to use it forgetting that the best way to kill them is to shoot them.

The Eldar player should have:

Only tank shock when necessary

When tank shocking, only clip the unit and not fly over a hammer

Use Mindwar to take out the librarian (and anyone else).

At the end Fortune Eldrad and tarpit Draigo or Paladins.

Take out the GK vehicles with elder missile launchers and fire prisms.

A lot less ramming and more getting behind them for rear shots.

After reading the report i have the same feeling, the eldar player seems not to have played well.
I think this battle need a revenge
Despite good report a usual

The fragons got their one turn on shooting. Then they were basicly out of the game. Was there no possibility to block Paladin movement with skimmers while shooting melta from cover?

Best out of three guys? I really think the Eldar have a change in this.

The elder made a ton of mistakes. It appears he handed the game to the GK. Why deploy the fire dragons between the GK's and your objective? So that when the surviving paladins assault, they will be closer to the elder objective?

Eldrad and the dragons needed to deploy on the GK's right side which would have dragged the paladins farther away from the elder objective if the surviving paladins assaulted them.

That is just one tactic. The elder could have skirted the far edges all around, kill the non-paladins, and ignored the deathstar.

I do agree with IG88 that these things seem to end with some crazy movie marines ending. 30 fire dragons shoot, 20 twin linked and only 3 paladins die? Crazy.

I do enjoy reading these though. I prefer the picture reports over the video ones. I notice your play group doesn't manuever to much during games. There is a lot of rush forward and attack or stand and shoot. I bet you guys have trouble against maneuver opponents at tourneys.

Thanks for the report.

Red Corsair wrote:Wow, so many people haven't really read the report correctly. Eldrad and the DA started the game on the table, He did not move, disembark, move.

He didn't move, disembark, move, he disembarked then moved Flat Out, which is also against the rules.

Interesting report, as always.

Whilst I agree the eldar might have done a bit better, I'm not that surprised by the result, I find double-farseer mech eldar nasty opponents (not spamming dragons, mind) but even with lots of ID and good psychic defence, it's hard to eradicate paladins (and while tank shock is annoying and can sometimes run a unit of board, it's not a tactic to rely on, rather one to be aware of and use tactically - eg to try to drive more than half of a paladin squad out of cover, or to move them more than 3" from an objective).

I think two ravens and fewer paladins would have maybe fared better (but bear in mind a raven has no smoke launchers). With two ravens I'd have cracked Eldrad's transport and mindstruck the poor fool into oblivion early doors to allow GK's free reign with their own psychic. the reason I fear double farseer rather more than Eldrad is because it's much harder to get rid of two psychics and they can guide/doom with greater likelihood of some getting through the hood.

if anything, i could be viewed as a poor sport when it comes to losing, but let me say this to defend myself..."If there was a way to hit a button and get x1 turn of just-the-average resaults for everything we need to roll a die for" then I wouldn't have anything to complain about.

I felt that was worth adding to this battlerep because "the average" never seemed to occur in any part of your report. this game would have sent me over the edge if i was either player.

i always get wrapped up in the math-hammer of things that it's nice to see that the majority of people can remove themselves from it and ENJOY a game of warhammer 40k.

grats to both of you! crazy game that my non-WAC competitve nature would have likely got the best of me. I do think the swings kept this game competitive and therefore has taught me to hold in all the angst and let fate bring victory back to my side despite the odds.

The problem with relying on the probabilities (which I regard as almost essential knowledge) is that the nature of the game is such that even if you did get pretty 'average' dice, it's a relatively few rolls that can end up deciding any game. When these rolls are obvious (like rolling 3 1s on the trot as 3+ invulnerables, say) and come at a critical juncture, everyone cries 'luck!' good or bad. But really (or at least ideally one should try and cater for 'poor luck' at those critical moments, by having excess of force (or a potential excess in shooting), which most people do, but also by thinking about what might happen if things go wrong and manoeuvering accordingly.

Of course it's not easy to do, but I think it can often make the difference when the dice seem agin you.

..... and what do you know, he casts shrouding even though runes of warding is up... 20 twin linked melta + 10 regs should have killed more like 6 pally's even with the 3++ and Draigo acting like his spongy self so I'm guessing rolling was a bit good. Anyway it looks like Chuck Norris does round house his enemies!! shocking!!

On a serious note, thanks for posting the battles they are a fun if not predictable read but unfortunately SabreX plays eldar about as bad as I imagine he plays the mandolin and JY2 you really need to get up to the city of sin sometime cause with your luck i'm betting you would get rich pretty quick.

Sabre X please split your dragons up and shoot from 3 directions next time so you get a couple volley's from two of the units in. Shield the disembarked dragons as best as you can with the umpteen serpents from the rest of his minimal threats or (What I would do) flat out everybody past the pally's, wreck everything else in his army on turn 2 ie Dreads, Stormraven and what ever else he had then use your mobility to pick the paly squad apart.

It's simple, you had the mobile force but you let him walk right down the middle of the field and dictate/control the pace of the game.

I'm actually crying a little after this one bring an eldar player, I award you zero points for tactical ingenuity and may Ynnead have mercy on your soul.

Kudos for serving as Jy2's pally punching bag though, you will learn over time, it would help if you played the same army more though as its tough to learn when your playing a different force every other day.

Well after the first half of the report I can't say I didn't see that result coming. To be honest, the Eldar player made a bunch of mistakes, some of which hurt the Grey Knights and some of which hurt the Eldar. He basically dumped his units off in front of your Paladins and trusted that the dice gods WOULDN'T decide to punish him for his hubris. This, along with the mistakes that have been pointed out a bunch of times already, suggest that this guy really doesn't know how to play Eldar.

The better play would have been to ignore the Paladins entirely in the beginning and focus on killing off the Dreadnoughts and the Stormraven, which are FAR bigger threats to the Wave Serpents. Psycannons are bad, but they need 5's to glance and Eldrad can Fortune two tanks for re-rollable cover. He could have used the Fire Prisms to harass the Paladins with S9 AP2 Pie Plates, then screen the Dragons Serpents with the Dire Avengers while advancing flat-out toward the Dreadnoughts.

I also question that 30 Fire Dragons is necessary at all. In this list it seemed to hurt more than help. They failed to complete the task they were taken for and payed a heavy price for it, and as a result of having taken so many of them, the rest of the list was woefully ill equipped to take on a Death Star. Eldar are an army of specialists, each designed to accomplish one task, and taking a balance of specialists gives the army a cohesive presence and allows it to function as a whole. I think 3x units of 6 could have freed up enough points for more Dire Avengers or perhaps some Jetbikes, or even replacing one of the Fire Prisms with some War Walkers or a DAVU Falcon, or giving all three of them Holofields. Any of those would have given the list a more balanced feel and could have been used to destroy the rest of the Grey Knights force while running circles around Draigo and his Death Star.

Also....I'd have Mind Warre'd the bajeezus out of that Librarian as early as humanly possible until he was a corpse. He was a huge part of the Grey Knights victory and Eldrad could have sniped him from the unit on turn 2 with a good roll.

Anyway jy2, I don't mean to diminish your win. It was well executed and you took advantage of mistakes made by the Eldar player which is the sign of a better general and a well deserved victory. But I have to wonder what might have happened if the Eldar list were a bit more well rounded as a Mech list rather than specifically fielding so many specialist models that failed miserably to accomplish the task they were taken for.

Edit: Should have read Blackmoore's post before I wrote mine, but I totally missed the second page lol. Regardless, he pretty much hit the nail on the head!

Avatar 720 wrote:

Red Corsair wrote:Wow, so many people haven't really read the report correctly. Eldrad and the DA started the game on the table, He did not move, disembark, move.

He didn't move, disembark, move, he disembarked then moved Flat Out, which is also against the rules.

No crap, but people were arguing that he made both mistakes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Aldarionn wrote:

Anyway jy2, I don't mean to diminish your win. It was well executed and you took advantage of mistakes made by the Eldar player which is the sign of a better general and a well deserved victory. But I have to wonder what might have happened if the Eldar list were a bit more well rounded as a Mech list rather than specifically fielding so many specialist models that failed miserably to accomplish the task they were taken for.

Edit: Should have read Blackmoore's post before I wrote mine, but I totally missed the second page lol. Regardless, he pretty much hit the nail on the head!

Well executed? he scouted back even though he had the initiative and his opponent gave him a break. Then he just walks forward and makes no real decision after that other then charge whats directly in front of him. Wow, he didn't even have to kill eldrad because SabreX turned the wave serpent the wrong way


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brothererekose wrote:

Red Corsair wrote:I also am surprised that he didn't use his tanks to screen his dragons for insurance, now if he flubs it all three units are toast.

With the WaveSerpents' 'flying stands' so short, isn't LoS blocked? Several guys argued so at my store at 5e's beginning, such that I used my Eldar far less, and one more reason not to use tau (as this killed FoF).

You can easily fire between them and deny a charge, the wings on serpents are flat and easily shot past.

Great quality as always, but I have to say, SabrX played nowhere near his usual level of skill. I found myself cringing through the entire battle report, not only at Eldar's rotten luck, but also at his unbelievable tactical blunders.

Like some posters above mentioned, here were some serious flaws in Eldars game plan.
Why ram/tankshock everything?
Why sacrfice your fire dragons turn 2?
Why not use your mobility to your advantage?
Why spend the game in the corner?
Why run straight into 15+ pallies + Draigo?
Why not use VoF to whittle (at least a few) them down?
Why not kite the slow (slow slow slow) pallies across the map?
Why not turbo-boost onto objectives last turn (although I suppose the game was too far gone by then..)
Why not use time (turns) to your advantage?

Eldar just didn't play like eldar. Tactics where thrown out the window in favour of...something. As a whole I would have to say that the game was unbelievably embarassing ( to read, I can't imagine how SabrX feels now that this is online) even for a friendly 'test' game.

This is not to say that GK didn't play a magnificient game and I think congratulations are in order! You got (deep) into SabrX's head and got him to completely freeze up. I think that your objective placment and phenomenal positioning really shone this game, and ultimately earned you this unlikely victory.

POST-GAME ANALYSIS:
Let me first say that this game was an anomaly. I believe it really was a fluke. My dice rolls were fantastic and my opponents craptastic. The results were so extreme that it actually made it look like my opponent played worse than what he really did. He may have played the statistical averages and lost, but IMO he didn't make any risky moves that should have warranted a "Omigod, why did he do that!" type of reaction.

And to be fair to my opponent, he has only played a handful of games with his mechdar. He's played probably about as many games with them as I have with my new necrons. He acquired this army I believe last year from a friend and it is his 4th string army - behind Tau, Battle Sisters (which is now his current 4th string army) and Blood Angels. So although he is a savvy player, he is not really a veteran eldar statesman (haha...pun intended).

Anyways, here are some examples of my good rolling and his atrocious dice:


- 30 melta shots, of which 20 were twin-linked, only killing 3 paladins and wounding Draigo. My saves were on fire as I must've made about 20 3+ cover saves or so.

- My Death-&-Glory needing 6's to wreck him. I do.

- He rams my raven with a S10 missile. Only he is wrecked and my raven doesn't even suffer a scratch.

- Immobilizing his skimmer on terrain, thereby wrecking it because he moved flat-out, while tankshocking my paladins.

- I killed all his tanks when it mattered. I can't believe I killed 9 skimmers with my limited shooting (and some assault)! Every time I needed, I was able to wreck his skimmers especially in the end with my dread (needing 6's to hit with only S6).

- I passed maybe about 2/3 of all my LD10 psychic tests on 3D6.

- I didn't fail a single morale test.

- His last unit of fire dragons getting pinned. If that hadn't happened, they may have been able to wipe out my 5-man paladin squad out in the open.

- As my opponent already mentioned, Eldrad's fortuned serpent failed 3 re-rollable 4+ flat-out cover saves in the end when he was contesting my objective. Also, if only I had blown it up instead of wrecking it, he could have placed Eldrad still within contesting range of the objective. Only a wrecked result would Eldrad not be able to contest and I got it.

- His screening avengers only being able to run 1". Had they been able to run farther out, I may not have been able to contest with my 5-man paladin squad after wiping out the screening unit.


The only gamble my opponent took was trying to tankshock my paladinstar. Normally, if they were fearless, he would've screened out his fire dragons with his serpents (that's how he plays his Battle Sisters....screen out his sisters so that they can shoot but you can't assault them). However, it was just too tempting to try to tankshock my 1100pt+ with fast vehicles. This was the only time he played against the averages and lost (the other times, he played with the statistics backing him up and lost). This "gamble" also created an opening where I could get to his fire dragons.

Someone here mentioned that he should've avoided the paladinstar and taken out the rest of the army, but we all knew that it would come down to a showdown between his dragons and my paladins. Chasing my other units would only give me more time to shoot down his vehicles as I would've had all my units close to my paladinstar's psycannons. Don't tell me you guys wouldn't have tried to kill paladins with 30 fire dragons, of which 2/3 were guided? It's just too tempting to do as you have the law of averages on your side. It is a worthy gambit and I see the aggressive general taking advantage of it. It's just too bad lady luck was on my side for this one.

In summary, do not take too much from this battle. It mainly shows that there is no such thing as an auto-win in 40K. Generalship and luck oftentimes can overcome list mis-matches, but do not expect the average Draigowing to do as well as I did against Fire Dragon Mechdar. This game was a exception instead of the norm.

I was unfortunate with a lot of bad dice rolls. I couldn't completely bunker all my Fire Dragons after I failed the first tank shock (hard to balance another vehicle) and jy2 passed his psychic test at a crucial moment, allowing his Paladins to have a 3+ cover save. Furthermore, I did fire a lot of Bright Lances and Fire Prisms at the Storm Raven. Despite many penetrations, my damage rolls fell short. Mean while, jy2's dice were hot. He took out vehicles left and right. I pulled back the last Fire Dragon unit to intercept jy2's 5 Paladins inside the Storm Raven, jy2 wrecked their Wave Serpent and pinned the Fire Dragons.

Yes I'm aware I could have played more conservative such as hanging back all my skimmers, forming road blocks, and contest towards late game. Had I done that, it would have been an almost guarantee victory.

However, I'm not a power gamer. I play to have fun. Playing conservatively by having my entire army fly around and exploiting major weaknesses such as Paladin's lack of mobility is both demoralizing for my opponent and makes an uninteresting game. Without risks there is no rewards. I like playing on the edge where both sides are evenly matched and luck will ultimately decide the outcome. Either go all in or not at all.

@Aldarionn & Avatar 720:

While I know we made a mistake playing the skimmers moving flat-out after a unit embarks/disembarks, care to explain about not being able to cast guide/fortune on another unit in another transport?

I don't really see anything in the Eldar codex or FAQ that restricts it.

Thanks.

Q: Can psychic powers be used on a unit embarked on
a transport? (p50)
A: For simplicity’s sake, the answer has to be a firm ‘No,
unless the psyker himself is in the unit being
transported’

From the main 40k FAQ.

Oh, good find. Must've been a new addition to the FAQ as I hadn't recalled seeing it the last time I looked.

jy2 wrote:Oh, good find. Must've been a new addition to the FAQ as I hadn't recalled seeing it the last time I looked.

It's been there for quite a while, and it would have made a big statistical difference in this game. That said, the statistical difference favored you, and you won anyway so it barely mattered.

The fact that your opponent has only played Eldar a short time is pretty evident from the battle report. Eldar are NOT a forgiving army, nor are they good for beginners. They have only one good "easy button" in the form of Runes of Warding, but combined with everything else, they are a very tough army to play correctly. There is no shame in losing due to that fact, however. Each game with Eldar is a learning experience, and because they are so unforgiving, your mistakes are greatly magnified so you can see what you did wrong very easily. In this case, committing the Fire Dragons that early was a poor choice in my opinion.

Yes, ultimately it might have come down to the 30 Dragons facing off against the 1100 point Paladin Death Star, but I would DEFINITELY have done it differently and I certainly would not have made the Death Star my priority in an objective based mission when I'm fielding an army of fast skimmers. The clear priority would have been to take out the Dreadnoughts (who are much more dangerous to the tanks than the Paladins) and the Stormraven (which can contest things and has nasty weaponry), then Mind-War the Librarian to remove your 3+ cover save before jumping out for an alpha strike. I might lose models in the process, but there is such a massive mobility difference between the Paladins and the Eldar that it's a VERY bad idea NOT to capitalize on it. Your opponent's game plan was too close to how Space Marines play, and not at all how Eldar should play. Assuming average dice (because you can never count on them going one way or another as your game clearly demonstrated), it would have been much wiser to leave you with Draigo and 10 Paladins unmolested chasing Skimmers around the smoldering wreckage of your Dreadnoughts and the corpses of your Soloadins than to dive head-first into a Death Star and get eaten alive. I would feel much better about losing if I had chosen option A than losing because I chose option B.

Don't be to hard on SabrX. He explained his reasoning in wanting to have a cinematic battle and not a dodge and weave battle. I will admit his tactics make for a more exciting game in the end and how quickly would we get bored in reading a battle report which says each turn one side hides.

Maybe that is one of the reasons Eldar are not very popular. They require a finesse bordering on non-engagement and that can be a turn off for most players.

It's like Kobe's Lakers against Lebron James' Heat. You know you all want to see Kobe go mano-o-mano against Lebron. Who cares about the role players.

Except the title of this report was how to beat Draigowing not lets just line up some eldar then laugh when they get rolled. Then lets deflect every remark with, oh well he wasn't going for tactics or statistical edge, he was playing it like a Michael Bay film.

Honestly, if your going to title it with such bold remarks, be prepared to back up that claim, or at least answer some honest questions.

That psychic rule and the flat out move has been out forever, so that was just poor play... It happens but immediately that changes the game where if you knew the correct ruling he couldn't have even flat out tank shocked!

In regards to luck, a good player makes his own, example: "He flat out tank shocks my paladins, my hammer death or glories, and succeeds!" Like Blackmoore pointed out, why tank shock the hammer? He could have hit any part of your unit, even a clip, avoiding any chance you could blow it up.

It's just frustrating to start with a bold claim, poll, several days of hype, then a broken up report only to see "cinematic game effects".... seriously, title it Draigo Norris, curb stomps the pointy ears in laughable game... I think that was the most irritating part.