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AresX8 wrote:Can't you just do the open-topped vehicle template shenanigans for Burnas (Like normal)? Because if you somehow cover the entire unit with the template, that's 165 hits, 82.5 wounds.

Well, if you manage to cover the whole squad then yes, 82.5 wounds. After armor saves and FNP that equals 7 unsaved wounds, which can be spread out through WAC onto at least 7 different wound groups (NFS, Apothecary, Psycannon, Warding Stave, Brotherhood Banner, Halberd/Falchions/Daemonhammer, Draigo). You won't kill a single man, although that's certainly a better try than most; then next turn they hose the BW down with 16 S8 psycannon shots against AV 12 (You had to drive up alongside them to get that many hits) and assault with 30 S5 and 6 S6 attacks against the Burnas that drop out.

If you don't manage to get the whole squad, of course, the numbers are much lower. If you hit five of them, for instance (still quite good for a flamer template) that's 75 hits, 37.5 wounds, and a grand total of 3 unsaved.

yeah burninating a pali squad is kinda missleading normaly 45 wounds on a squad will kill most if not all of it but against the paladins i have seen it do only a few wounds if that.

You could hit them with burnas from the front of the wagon(open topped+template rules). Have a blob of 30 boyz wade in afterwards, survive ork assault, die GK assault. You now can do the burnas again, hopefully on less pallys.

Thinking about it, 2 SAG's supported by 45 lootas, 2 batteries of big guns(kannons preferably, but lobbas might work for pinning), a compliment of boyz, and some large bike squads might be the best way to deal with this certain problem. Keep them at range and blast them.

If you put the boyz in trukks and reserve them all, you could potentially get a scramble for objectives at the end once all the nasty AT weapons are gone.

-cgmckenzie

cgmckenzie wrote:If you put the boyz in trukks and reserve them all, you could potentially get a scramble for objectives at the end once all the nasty AT weapons are gone.-cgmckenzie

Your suggestion won't work against 1 squad of 12 Paladins camped over 2 of 3 objectives in Seize Ground. Besides, we're discussing killing Paladins, not objective grabbing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Forget what GKs can do to Orks. The fact is that the Ork Codex is not equipped with any volume of anything that will kill Paladins with Wound Allocation and FNP.

The name of the game is to be able to win. That often involves grabbing some objectives, not just killing paladins.

There is nothing in the troops selection that can kill paladins, so leave them off the table and have them ready to handle other tasks involved in winning; let the SAG and company do work on the pallys.

-cgmckenzie

cgmckenzie wrote:The name of the game is to be able to win. That often involves grabbing some objectives, not just killing paladins.

I concur. However, this still does not address azgrim's OP.

So still no fans of just tank shocking them?

You're looking at a unit that can conceivably take 165 burna hits without losing a single model, and still thinking about ways to shoot or melee them to death?

Assuming that you have to kill them, isn't the 8% chance of them failing a leadership test (16% without a character) a better way to just wipe out the whole unit at once?

when you look at it, orks are some of the worst basic infantry in the game, and think about it, GK will usually strike first and kill everything. even if there is some left it wont be enough to do any damage. as an ex-chaos play i charges a tactical squad, 8 khorne beserkers and ABBADON THE DESPOILER! into a squad of pladins, i was wiped out and didnt do anything

try loads of deffcoptas and killa cans

cgmckenzie wrote:You could hit them with burnas from the front of the wagon(open topped+template rules). Have a blob of 30 boyz wade in afterwards, survive ork assault, die GK assault. You now can do the burnas again, hopefully on less pallys.

Thinking about it, 2 SAG's supported by 45 lootas, 2 batteries of big guns(kannons preferably, but lobbas might work for pinning), a compliment of boyz, and some large bike squads might be the best way to deal with this certain problem. Keep them at range and blast them.

If you put the boyz in trukks and reserve them all, you could potentially get a scramble for objectives at the end once all the nasty AT weapons are gone.

-cgmckenzie

SAGs are not as insane sounding as some might think; you have S8 or better about 40 percent of the time. My gripe is against the Ammo Runt; you're allowed only one!

In all seriousness, here's my suggestions to fight the Draigowing:

1). Rear-attack the Psyrifleman Dreadnaughts with Kommandos with Snikrot and a PK Bikerboss (or Ghazzy). GK Dreadnaughts aren't much of a fight with only two attacks and no close-combat weapons; likelihood of one Psy Dread killing one orkboy is about but tying them up from shooting is effectively as important



2). Against the Paladins themselves, position your 6 pt. Boys broadly and your Meganobs narrowly; that is, for an assault such that each Paladin has at least one boy in base-to-base contact, then position your Meganobs against ONE Paladin, such that only ONE Paladin can attack the Meganobs. That way, the most of the Paladin attacks will fall against the cheap Boys (two or three defending attack per Paladin, causing 5 to 7 wounds), most of the Meganobs will survive to strike against the Paladins (five Meganobs will confer 20 instant death attacks). Hope to wipe the squad. However, it's not guaranteed because of the stave it might not.

3) Bring up Deffdreads. They have AV 12 armor, and the shooting attack from Paladins would only penetrate on six.

Flavius Infernus wrote:So still no fans of just tank shocking them?

You're looking at a unit that can conceivably take 165 burna hits without losing a single model, and still thinking about ways to shoot or melee them to death?

Assuming that you have to kill them, isn't the 8% chance of them failing a leadership test (16% without a character) a better way to just wipe out the whole unit at once?

Not the worst idea in the world, but you would need at least five Trukks to give yourself a 40 percent chase of it happening. You would have to line that up pretty smartly.

I know how all you ork players feel, once it took me 6 turns to kill 5 paladins and Draigo, with 20 bloodbrides (ws4 bs4 str3(4) toughness 3 a2 w1 4+invulnerable) with 3 razorflails and 3 shardnets and impalers, he however didn't have an apothecary!

Tank-shocking might work, IF you can get capable vehicles into tank-shock range with them and survive. And then you have to escort them off the board, which isn't easy. . . particularly since when your opponent sees you chivvying his deathstar towards the board edge, he's gonna focus everything on killing the escorts.


Here's the thing; I honestly don't think that you're going to see much of the massive 11-man Paladin + Draigo deathstar from hell. Why? Because it's way too many points! Against Orks it works very well, but against anyone with lascannons, or meltaguns, or high-strength ordnance, they're just targets. They can't take a transport, but without one they'll be shot to pieces by literally anyone except Orks while slogging up the board, and 11 models can't fit in a Rhino; which means they basically need to either have a Land Raider (another 255 points) or a Stormraven, which is only 50 points cheaper than the Land Raider and only AV 12. This is now a 1200+ -point unit! It's basically the whole army, and if a GK player was so unfortunate as to take it against any IG army, Dark Eldar, Long Fang spam, a Vulkan melta list, basically any of the common tournament builds, it would vaporize.

What you need to be prepared to deal with, I would say, is 5 diversified Paladins, with or without Draigo. A single diversified Nobz squad and Ghazghkull is basically the same thing, but better and with a cheaper transport. Use that, or use MANZ screened by Boyz, or Nobz screened by Boyz. . . anything that gets PKs into close-combat with a bunch of ablative wounds will work. As long as you're Fearless, you're fine; your worry is failing Leadership checks and fleeing, since Fearless wounds won't really bother your PK-carriers anyway.

If you run into 10 Paladins + Draigo; you likely won't be able to kill them, so don't bother to try. Wipe out the rest of the army, tank-shock them if you have vehicles in position to do so, toss any fire towards them that doesn't have something more productive to do, and only assault them if you have to. Do your best to win the game without being forced to deal with them. . . but, in all honesty, it'll be an uphill battle. The Orks protection from this kind of thing is that OTHER armies can murder it and so a TAC list hopefully won't include it.

BeRzErKeR wrote:Tank-shocking might work, IF you can get capable vehicles into tank-shock range with them and survive. And then you have to escort them off the board, which isn't easy. . . particularly since when your opponent sees you chivvying his deathstar towards the board edge, he's gonna focus everything on killing the escorts.

Not so. If you tank shock a unit that's already falling back, they immediately fall back again 2d6 automatically without a chance to rally. So if you have enough vehicles lined up, you can run them off the table in one turn. Once the unit fails even one leadership test, it's dead unless you do something wrong.

If you're tooling an ork army to kill a unit of paladins, spamming ~40point red trukks with reinforced ram and some trakks or bikes to help herd if you can't quite knock them off in one turn should do the trick.

Flavius Infernus wrote:
Not so. If you tank shock a unit that's already falling back, they immediately fall back again 2d6 automatically without a chance to rally. So if you have enough vehicles lined up, you can run them off the table in one turn. Once the unit fails even one leadership test, it's dead unless you do something wrong.

If you're tooling an ork army to kill a unit of paladins, spamming ~40point red trukks with reinforced ram and some trakks or bikes to help herd if you can't quite knock them off in one turn should do the trick.

Right, but you have to get that original morale fail. I'm not saying it's a bad idea, but you can't build your army around it. A hammer can nail a screw into the wall, but it's not ideal.

The hammer at least has a chance of getting the screw in. If we're doing tool metaphors, then killing paladins with orks is like trying to put a screw in with a cruller.

The expected value is that a paladin unit will have failed about half the time after about six tank shocks. About 10 for the unit with a character. Considering you can do 10 tank shocks with about 400 points worth of trukks, sounds like a bargain to me.

I'm talking from experience here. Tank-shocking many GK units off the table over the course of many games has persuaded me that it's generally the best way to kill them.

YELLOWBLADES wrote:when you look at it, orks are some of the worst basic infantry in the game....

Not sure how you came to this conclusion, but the Ork Boy is actually one of the best basic infantry units in the game. The strength comes in numbers...which if you are an Ork player, you bring plenty of them every game.

1v1, yes they look bad. But 30v10 and things balance out, which is more typically the case.

Flavius Infernus wrote:

Not so. If you tank shock a unit that's already falling back, they immediately fall back again 2d6 automatically without a chance to rally. So if you have enough vehicles lined up, you can run them off the table in one turn. Once the unit fails even one leadership test, it's dead unless you do something wrong.

If you're tooling an ork army to kill a unit of paladins, spamming ~40point red trukks with reinforced ram and some trakks or bikes to help herd if you can't quite knock them off in one turn should do the trick.

I would love to see that, gotta admit. It would take a lot of veeeery careful set-up, but just the look on the GK player's face would be worth it.

Flavius Infernus wrote:The hammer at least has a chance of getting the screw in. If we're doing tool metaphors, then killing paladins with orks is like trying to put a screw in with a cruller.

Hahaha. I'm a man who hammered many a screw. Sometimes it works, sometimes it ruins the plaster. I have opened packages with pearing knives, and opened up my hand too.

To reiterate, I understand why a Speed Freak Trukk squad would want to get out and let the shocks make the walks. However, I think the strategy I list above is more consistent, likewise from experience.

I play orks a lot and have come up against palidans. They are tough. I recently have been playing a Mad Dok list with a full 30 boyz with cyborg armor. I also run some lootas, kanz and another 30 man reg boyz sqaud. The cybork armor boyz have won some of those matches, the thing to do is becareful of placement of Mad Dok so he doesn't get killed before he can attack, mainly so the unit will still have fell no pain for the fearless saves they will probaly need to take. . I try and tie them up with the cybork boyz then assualt them with the kanz. After the first assualt I then try and get mad dok into b2b. The lootas do good if they can stay far enough away from them but only really do 1 or 2 wounds not enough to kill the unit. I think with out mad dok the best bet would be to stay away and try and shoot them.

Mad Dok w/ cyborg boyz works.

Kanz do not wok on there own, only as a counter assualt unit. With the ability to get 2 hamerhands off and the whole sqaud being str 6 they don't survive long. I have had 2 times when three kanz where dead before they got to attack.

Palidans are tough and I am still looking at what I can do to beat them. I just got Gazghul so I have yet to try him out.

azgrim wrote:I am having trouble killing Th/SS terminators and paladins.Ive tried shootas in a wagon which are mildly effective against Terminators but paladins are almost immune thanks to FNP.I have tried tossing Ghaz into a paladin squad but ward staves and falchions negate most of the incoming damage.I charged a squad of paladin with 20 boys and they all died before i was able to swing .I am at a loss on how to effectively kill these guys .

to quote Jeff Goldblum in Independence Day, "If we can't get through their defenses, we gotta get around 'em."

Yeah, Paladins are pretty hard to kill. Hammernators too. But they are slow as hell and their range sucks. Take like 100 gretchen and just screen the hell out of 'em. NEVER assault Paladins with throwaway units. Put an annoying unit in their way, and make the Paladins assault you. Make them waste their turn dealing with your stuff.

Meanwhile, take down their support, and run around them in circles. Paladins exert very powerful board control, but only on a very small portion of the board. Ignoring them is the best way to win.

Kumorikage wrote:

to quote Jeff Goldblum in Independence Day, "If we can't get through their defenses, we gotta get around 'em."

Yeah, Paladins are pretty hard to kill. Hammernators too. But they are slow as hell and their range sucks. Take like 100 gretchen and just screen the hell out of 'em. NEVER assault Paladins with throwaway units. Put an annoying unit in their way, and make the Paladins assault you. Make them waste their turn dealing with your stuff.

Meanwhile, take down their support, and run around them in circles. Paladins exert very powerful board control, but only on a very small portion of the board. Ignoring them is the best way to win.

Unless they've taken psycannons. A 10-man squad can have 4 psycannons, giving them 16 S7 Rending shots (or S8, if they took psybolt ammunition) at 24" range, or 8 shots if they move. If they park in the middle of the board, that is a fething BIG portion of the battlefield under their guns, which are fully capable of wrecking pretty much any vehicle that isn't AV 14 or inflicting ID on your Nobz with impunity.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Kumorikage wrote:

to quote Jeff Goldblum in Independence Day, "If we can't get through their defenses, we gotta get around 'em."

Yeah, Paladins are pretty hard to kill. Hammernators too. But they are slow as hell and their range sucks. Take like 100 gretchen and just screen the hell out of 'em. NEVER assault Paladins with throwaway units. Put an annoying unit in their way, and make the Paladins assault you. Make them waste their turn dealing with your stuff.

Meanwhile, take down their support, and run around them in circles. Paladins exert very powerful board control, but only on a very small portion of the board. Ignoring them is the best way to win.

Unless they've taken psycannons. A 10-man squad can have 4 psycannons, giving them 16 S7 Rending shots (or S8, if they took psybolt ammunition) at 24" range, or 8 shots if they move. If they park in the middle of the board, that is a fething BIG portion of the battlefield under their guns, which are fully capable of wrecking pretty much any vehicle that isn't AV 14 or inflicting ID on your Nobz with impunity.

Pysbolt Ammo doesn't improve the strength of Pyscannon shots, so they stay at S7.

Psyammo doesnt work on psycannons. It does make those stormbolters s5 though, but IMHO its a waste on paladins.

I think if I had to make a new TAC ork list, with the knowledge that TAC now includes paladins, it really wouldnt change my list much. I always ran ghazzy+KFF, MANz, lootas, ect. Not an easy game, but as was said knowing HOW to assault paladins is 90% of the battle.

Deffrollas are still good, having a pair of battlewagons and a pair of trucks goes a long way in most ork lists. First, you get to try tankshocking the deathstar, preferrably with the wagons first. If the s10 kills a few, great! If they fail morale, escorting off the board becomes a reality. Otherwise, Ghaz, MANz, and a few boys to lock the paladins down will perform fantastic, and you dont have to waaagh until you realize you won or lost combat if you dont need the 6 inch fleet, meaning you hold onto fearless and that 2++ save for as long as possible.

Now, this works because the wagons are safe from the psyriflemen for the most part, and Paladin armies tend to have less psycannon shooting outside of the main 10 man squad. Dictating the initiative is critical, as eventually the wagons will go down to shooting, preventing the mobility and concentration ability of the ork assault.

You guys aren't doing justice to the OP by giving terrible terrible advice.

DeffRollas - Really? Even with D6 S10, you are only killing one Paladin on average (2+ armor save!!!)

Big Guns/Boom Gun - S8 is cool, but sorry, AP3 sucks against 2+ armor. Just not efficient when your chances are 1/6.

Shokk Attack Gun - No one uses them in a competitive TAC list. But if you are tailoring, ok fine.

Lootas/Burnas - Terribly inefficient. EVEN IF the burna template covers 5 paladins, thats only 75 hits, 37.5 wounds, 3.125 unsaved wounds after 2+ armor & FNP - not even sufficient to kill a single paladin after wound allocation.

Mass Tank Shock - Great. But sadly, orks have problem doing that. Mass trucks makes a terrible ork list.

Diversified Nobs - Ok, not too bad, since they are much cheaper than the diversified Paladins. But still not efficient.

And all the comments about pouring them with tons of bullets - Inefficient shooting is inefficient shooting. Theoretically, 1000 s4 shots will be cool, but do you have that? - NO


SO SERIOUSLY, Killa kans (for Kan wall build) and Ghaz (for wagon assault lists) are the 2 only most efficient way of dealing with Paladins.

Ghazzy with his 7 s10 powerfist and 2++, he will on average kill 2-4 Paladins outright, while only suffering 1 wound after 1 round of combat. A 225 character against a unit of 500 points (5 Pallies) or even 1000 points unit and achieving that kind of result, I would say that's efficient.

Other than that, orks have no real way of dealing with them. Face it, it's just bad matchup.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Unless they've taken psycannons. A 10-man squad can have 4 psycannons, giving them 16 S7 Rending shots (or S8, if they took psybolt ammunition) at 24" range, or 8 shots if they move.

Paladins are relentless so even if they move it's still 16 shots for four psycannons.

Flavius Infernus is right. Deffrolla is the best odds because you can tank shock them off the table. like I said before their Ld is one of their only weaknesses. they can only glance against armour 14. And Berzerker I will give you that a big diverse Nob squad against 5 will work ok (not great) but not a full kitted 10 man.

The deffrollaz first has to move into position to tank shock and survive in order to pull it off. The odds are only 8 percent if you do manage to tank shock them. It doesn't seem like good odds and if you fail which is most likely what will occur then you've put your army directly in harm's way. I think the best tactic is to avoid them altogether and focus on taking objectives if it's not a killpoint mission.

Isseyfaran wrote:You guys aren't doing justice to the OP by giving terrible terrible advice.

DeffRollas - Really? Even with D6 S10, you are only killing one Paladin on average (2+ armor save!!!)

Big Guns/Boom Gun - S8 is cool, but sorry, AP3 sucks against 2+ armor. Just not efficient when your chances are 1/6.

Shokk Attack Gun - No one uses them in a competitive TAC list. But if you are tailoring, ok fine.

Lootas/Burnas - Terribly inefficient. EVEN IF the burna template covers 5 paladins, thats only 75 hits, 37.5 wounds, 3.125 unsaved wounds after 2+ armor & FNP - not even sufficient to kill a single paladin after wound allocation.

Mass Tank Shock - Great. But sadly, orks have problem doing that. Mass trucks makes a terrible ork list.

Diversified Nobs - Ok, not too bad, since they are much cheaper than the diversified Paladins. But still not efficient.

And all the comments about pouring them with tons of bullets - Inefficient shooting is inefficient shooting. Theoretically, 1000 s4 shots will be cool, but do you have that? - NO


SO SERIOUSLY, Killa kans (for Kan wall build) and Ghaz (for wagon assault lists) are the 2 only most efficient way of dealing with Paladins.

Ghazzy with his 7 s10 powerfist and 2++, he will on average kill 2-4 Paladins outright, while only suffering 1 wound after 1 round of combat. A 225 character against a unit of 500 points (5 Pallies) or even 1000 points unit and achieving that kind of result, I would say that's efficient.

Other than that, orks have no real way of dealing with them. Face it, it's just bad matchup.

The OP was asking how to effectively kill Paladins.

I agree, Ghazzy and Kans are the top choice but even then, those can only do so much. Supplementing them with some of the other suggested methods, makes them even more effective. It's called force multiplication. Saying that they are terrible advice it terrible advice in and of itself.

Have some squads of Lootas shoot while Ghazzy rides up in a Deffrolla equipped battlewagon. Turn 2, call the WAAAGH!, tank shock, hop out with some diversified Nobz and assault. Sounds effective to me.

Only thing I would be worried about is the next turn when the WAAAGH wears off and there's more Paladins to be killed. Maybe get back in the Battlewagon and play keep away?

Also, shooting is viable, considering Paladins are the suck beyond 24" range.

Yes, they aren't going to die easily, but what else can you do?

Isseyfaran wrote:


SO SERIOUSLY, Killa kans (for Kan wall build) and Ghaz (for wagon assault lists) are the 2 only most efficient way of dealing with Paladins.

Ghazzy with his 7 s10 powerfist and 2++, he will on average kill 2-4 Paladins outright, while only suffering 1 wound after 1 round of combat. A 225 character against a unit of 500 points (5 Pallies) or even 1000 points unit and achieving that kind of result, I would say that's efficient.

Other than that, orks have no real way of dealing with them. Face it, it's just bad matchup.

Well, I mentioned Ghazghkull quite a while ago as the best option, and several times since. . .

Kans? Well, they can do decently, but they aren't likely to GET there. AV 11 vs. psycannons does not last long, even with the KFF save. 16 shots, 11 hits, 4 pens and 2 glances. . . bad numbers, especially with the squadron rules. Even the KFF won't save you from that. Then, once you get into CC, you realize that Kans only have WS2, and so hit Paladins on 5+. 3 Kans will only score 3 hits on the charge, and likely only kill 1 Paladin. Then the others get to swing back, hitting on 3s and glancing on 6; 9 Paladins get 27 attacks, 18 hits, 9 wounds. Odds are that you actually lose combat, and then your Kans take an extra hit. . . I dunno. Four glances a turn may not seem like much, but every one reduces the attacks you put out next round, and they add up eventually. You might be able to tarpit them, but you probably won't kill them.

I'd suggest using a Deff Dred instead. It's got WS4, and you can give it 6 attacks on the charge; on the first round it's just as good as 3 Kans, and after that it's better. Furthermore, Paladins can't even glance AV12, so barring some very, VERY lucky rolling from Draigo you're guaranteed not to lose combat, and could very well break them after 2-3 rounds. Then you can chase them away from the objective they were camping, or hopefully tank-shock them a couple times and send them off the table.

The only difficulty is keeping the Dred alive to reach close-combat. It would work well in a mech list; hide it behind a KFF-carrying Battlewagon, don't break out into the open until you're nearly in combat range on turn 2 or 3. Most people will be shooting at the BWs anyway, and Grey Knights have a hard time dealing with armor at range. Psyflemen are basically their only option, and as good as they are there can only be so many of them.

So; best options are Ghazzy and walkers. If that's not possible, diversified Nobz work ok, or the SAG to put down wounds from range, or tank-shock them over and over in the hope of breaking them, with Deffrolla-equipped BWs. If none of those are possible, you're screwed.

Ideally, do all of the above. Tank Shock with a Deffrolla wagon, drop out Ghazzy, and assault him in alongside a Deff Dred and maybe a squad of Nobz. THAT will do the trick.

The other thing with kanz is if you get into close combat with paladins and an IC then you are going up against double hammer hand which makes them strength 6 which glances on 5's and pens on 6's. All my kanz get destroyed against GK.

Dodgywop wrote:I agree, Ghazzy and Kans are the top choice but even then, those can only do so much. Supplementing them with some of the other suggested methods, makes them even more effective. It's called force multiplication.

I didnt know this is called "FORCE MULTIPLICATION". Is this something new you learnt somewhere? Anyone wants to second this?

Dodgywop wrote:Have some squads of Lootas shoot while Ghazzy rides up in a Deffrolla equipped battlewagon. Turn 2, call the WAAAGH!, tank shock, hop out with some diversified Nobz and assault. Sounds effective to me.

Your lootas are better off shooting something else, SERIOUSLY. Unless you are telling me there is NOTHING else on the board besides the Paladins.

BeRzErKeR wrote:Well, I mentioned Ghazghkull quite a while ago as the best option, and several times since. . .

No need to quote me and then tell me "Hei I did mention Ghazzy". My post said nothing about what Berzerker did or did not say. Different purpose altogether

BeRzErKeR wrote:I'd suggest using a Deff Dred instead. It's got WS4, and you can give it 6 attacks on the charge; on the first round it's just as good as 3 Kans, and after that it's better. Furthermore, Paladins can't even glance AV12, so barring some very, VERY lucky rolling from Draigo you're guaranteed not to lose combat, and could very well break them after 2-3 rounds. Then you can chase them away from the objective they were camping, or hopefully tank-shock them a couple times and send them off the table.

Don't know how you got 6 attacks, but even if you are talking about 4 DCCW on a Dread, that's 105 points. You can get 2 Killa Kans with Rokkits for that, who have 6 attacks on the charge as well (assuming you are right). WS4 or WS2, you are still hitting on 4+, although with WS2, you are hit on 3+ by Pallies. Also, in a competitive TAC kan wall list, no one uses DeffDread.
And why can't Pallies glance AV12?

BeRzErKeR wrote:Ideally, do all of the above. Tank Shock with a Deffrolla wagon, drop out Ghazzy, and assault him in alongside a Deff Dred and maybe a squad of Nobz. THAT will do the trick.

Assaulting Nobs alongside Ghazzy is a terribly stupid idea because the Paladins can then mostly choose to hit the Nobs rather than Ghaz. You then lose the advantage of your 2++ . So instead of winning combat, you are more likely to draw or lose combat, and then forced to take fearless saves.

The only time you should send reinforcement into the combat is after 2 full rounds of combat, when the Pally squad have been thinned down, and after Ghazzy has lost his 2++.