Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I really don't understand why France is being downgraded.

They are one of the few countries with credit within the debt system. They are owed more money than they owe to others.

The credit rating agencies are both based in the U.S. so all I can think of is that they have done or have proposed something that has pissed off the U.S. Government. I would think something like the tax on banks accross Europe.

I think the problem is who owes them money.
As I understand it, much of the money they are owed is from countries who are in severe financial trouble (Greece, Portugal, Cyprus)

Exactly.

So are we:


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15748696

Everyone is in severe financial trouble. If America paid off it's debt at a million dollars a second it would take around 500 years IIRC

Hooray for money! [/sarcasm]

DeadlySquirrel wrote:Everyone is in severe financial trouble. If America paid off it's debt at a million dollars a second it would take around 500 years IIRC

US government debt is $14.2trillion divided by $1m is 14.2 million seconds, this divided by 60 (for minutes) gives us 236,666 minutes, 3944 hours, 164 days.
So, that's wrong.

Joey wrote:

DeadlySquirrel wrote:Everyone is in severe financial trouble. If America paid off it's debt at a million dollars a second it would take around 500 years IIRC

US government debt is $14.2trillion divided by $1m is 14.2 million seconds, this divided by 60 (for minutes) gives us 236,666 minutes, 3944 hours, 164 days.
So, that's wrong.

feth knows where I got that from then... Damn you Jeff Rense.

DeadlySquirrel wrote:

Joey wrote:

DeadlySquirrel wrote:Everyone is in severe financial trouble. If America paid off it's debt at a million dollars a second it would take around 500 years IIRC

US government debt is $14.2trillion divided by $1m is 14.2 million seconds, this divided by 60 (for minutes) gives us 236,666 minutes, 3944 hours, 164 days.
So, that's wrong.

feth knows where I got that from then... Damn you Jeff Rense.

Maybe they got the loans from Wonga.com


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would propose a world wide mutual right off to present value (the value of debt for the purposes of trading) of all national loans. After all if you owe me 15 and I owe you 10 wouldn't we call it 5. At least then we would get an actual honest idea of what is owed to whom.

Sonophos wrote:I would propose a world wide mutual right off to present value (the value of debt for the purposes of trading) of all national loans. After all if you owe me 15 and I owe you 10 wouldn't we call it 5. At least then we would get an actual honest idea of what is owed to whom.

As much as that would be nice, it is just way too complicated to do that, with various loans being from consortia of nations or institutions, offset against different things, with different rates of repayment, different borrowing periods, etc.

What they really need to do is refinance with Ocean and turn all their debts into one single easy monthly repayment...

Sonophos wrote:

Maybe they got the loans from Wonga.com

Funnily enough I took a look at Wonga.com yesterday. I don't have TV at home so when I visited my family at Christmas I noticed for the first time in a long time the number of obnoxious get-yourself-into-debt adds.

So I went out of curiosity to their site to look at the 'sliders' as advertised by their "friendly" grannies on TV. Tried to check the smallprint, and found to my disgust they didn't even have any. The site spoke of interest for failed repayments, but didn't say how much. I had to go to moneysavingexpert.com to find that out. These loan sharks should have their license revoked, especially after the deceptive advertising about how Wonga is cheaper than a government low interest student loan.

Orlanth wrote:

Sonophos wrote:

Maybe they got the loans from Wonga.com

Funnily enough I took a look at Wonga.com yesterday. I don't have TV at home so when I visited my family at Christmas I noticed for the first time in a long time the number of obnoxious get-yourself-into-debt adds.

So I went out of curiosity to their site to look at the 'sliders' as advertised by their "friendly" grannies on TV. Tried to check the smallprint, and found to my disgust they didn't even have any. The site spoke of interest for failed repayments, but didn't say how much. I had to go to moneysavingexpert.com to find that out. These loan sharks should have their license revoked, especially after the deceptive advertising about how Wonga is cheaper than a government low interest student loan.

And the 4000 and something % APR... Or is that the other short term loan guys... Either way, it's ridiculous.

DeadlySquirrel wrote:

Orlanth wrote:

Sonophos wrote:

Maybe they got the loans from Wonga.com

Funnily enough I took a look at Wonga.com yesterday. I don't have TV at home so when I visited my family at Christmas I noticed for the first time in a long time the number of obnoxious get-yourself-into-debt adds.

So I went out of curiosity to their site to look at the 'sliders' as advertised by their "friendly" grannies on TV. Tried to check the smallprint, and found to my disgust they didn't even have any. The site spoke of interest for failed repayments, but didn't say how much. I had to go to moneysavingexpert.com to find that out. These loan sharks should have their license revoked, especially after the deceptive advertising about how Wonga is cheaper than a government low interest student loan.

And the 4000 and something % APR... Or is that the other short term loan guys... Either way, it's ridiculous.

No thats them. Some cost even more, but Wongas hide theirs which make it worse. Go to Wonga .com and pretend you are someone who has bought a loan and cant repay on time and are looking to see what that would cost. The info you get is vague, and with regards to credit repayments vague = bad.

Frankly I dont understand payday loans, yes you need money 'now' yes its daughters birthday etc. But change the fething culture, disappoint her, don't pay, take a short month, anything but EZ credit. With fast credit you pay more and every month, its part of our diseased get-it-now culture. I am on either low wages or JSA depending on the month, nothing much I can do about that, I have a mental health history from two decades ago, that might be behind me but the career gaps aren't. Yet I live better on an agency temp job than many do on twice my money, and can event get by on JSA when I need to, because I don't have any debts. If I cannot afford I don't buy, no ifs no buts, only my ISP is direct debit (no choice there). my energy suppliers are trying to muscle me into automated payments but I refuse, I pay by quarterly billing, often a few weeks late, to ensure I pay when I have the money. My bank account never dips below 0, i watch it every week and only buy from what I have got, no exceptions, I allow a small float to account for my ISP Direct Debit of £15, everything else is paid cash or online though a debit card. Credit, no thankyou.
When you have credit, any credit you end up permenantly paying for it, frankly I consider it negligent to buy it and an out and out con job to encourage it. The only credit I would consider is a mortgage, on a house only, never a car. As my income wont allow that it isnt going to happen, though my bank did tell me that I had a Class A credit rating, despite having next to no income, because of my stellar budgeting history.

I like the French :(

so this means that Greek epidemic reached france?
and where else? Britain? or Germany?

Lone Cat wrote:so this means that Greek epidemic reached france?
and where else? Britain? or Germany?

Britain. Germany is staying strong as far as I am aware.

Orlanth wrote:

Sonophos wrote:

Maybe they got the loans from Wonga.com

Funnily enough I took a look at Wonga.com yesterday. I don't have TV at home so when I visited my family at Christmas I noticed for the first time in a long time the number of obnoxious get-yourself-into-debt adds.

So I went out of curiosity to their site to look at the 'sliders' as advertised by their "friendly" grannies on TV. Tried to check the smallprint, and found to my disgust they didn't even have any. The site spoke of interest for failed repayments, but didn't say how much. I had to go to moneysavingexpert.com to find that out. These loan sharks should have their license revoked, especially after the deceptive advertising about how Wonga is cheaper than a government low interest student loan.

Not to worry, the head of wonga.com has donated millions to the tory party.
They also encourage students to take out their loans at 4000% interest rather than student loans at 3-4% interest: http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2012/jan/11/warning-wonga-student-loans
These people are seriously bastards.

Germany is far more at risk from the Euro crisis than Britain is simply because Germany actually uses the Euro.

corpsesarefun wrote:Germany is far more at risk from the Euro crisis than Britain is simply because Germany actually uses the Euro.

Germany has re-printed the Deutschmark already, the second the Euro goes they have a brand new system that will be put in place and will not get dragged down by the sinking Euro.

DeadlySquirrel wrote:

corpsesarefun wrote:Germany is far more at risk from the Euro crisis than Britain is simply because Germany actually uses the Euro.

Germany has re-printed the Deutschmark already, the second the Euro goes they have a brand new system that will be put in place and will not get dragged down by the sinking Euro.

The actual transition isn't the difficult issue. The difficult issue is how do you deal with foreigners who have their money in German banks, or Germans who have theirs in foreign banks?

Will Germany change all Euros held in German banks to Deutschmarks? If so, expect to see a flurry of deposits to German banks (and away from others) as soon as that announcement is made.

biccat wrote:[Will Germany change all Euros held in German banks to Deutschmarks? If so, expect to see a flurry of deposits to German banks (and away from others) as soon as that announcement is made.

It is speculated that they will change all Euros to the equivalent in Deutschmarks, but nobody can tell for sure. The Deutschark, IMHO, will emerge as the strongest currency going. But we shall have to see how it goes.

Wonga also set up that con called the continuos payment order where they retain your card details and can take money from your account whenever they feel like it at highest priority.

I haven't seen any of the adverts except on line. I have also unsolicited received emails from their likes.

At the rate they are downgrading all countries will be downgraded then we all end up at the same scale with different letters.

corpsesarefun wrote:Germany is far more at risk from the Euro crisis than Britain is simply because Germany actually uses the Euro.

Really? Explain how the Greek government being gak is going to make German exported goods worth less to the people who buy them.
You can't, because it won't. Germany will do fine with or without southern Europe.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DeadlySquirrel wrote:

biccat wrote:[Will Germany change all Euros held in German banks to Deutschmarks? If so, expect to see a flurry of deposits to German banks (and away from others) as soon as that announcement is made.

It is speculated that they will change all Euros to the equivalent in Deutschmarks, but nobody can tell for sure. The Deutschark, IMHO, will emerge as the strongest currency going. But we shall have to see how it goes.

Why would the Germans leave the Euro?

The Franco German alliance on the Euro is far too strong for them to leave.

To be quite frank the Greek debt crisis is a drop in the ocean by comparison to U.S. debt.

and Sarkozy will be tossed in the upcoming election.

but who can be a better candicate for the presidency of France ?

Joey wrote:Really? Explain how the Greek government being gak is going to make German exported goods worth less to the people who buy them.
You can't, because it won't. Germany will do fine with or without southern Europe.

It depends on how the rest of the Euro reacts to a Greek default.

If the monetary agency reacts by instituting inflation (printing more money) to pay off the Greek bondholders then it most certainly would affect Germany, making their assets worth less.

If they don't print money to cover the debts then it shows that Europe isn't really a centralized monetary union and could reduce confidence of borrowers of future debt, thereby raising borrowing costs.

Either is a net loss for Germany.

Joey wrote:Why would the Germans leave the Euro?

So that the Greeks can't destroy their currency.

Sonophos wrote:To be quite frank the Greek debt crisis is a drop in the ocean by comparison to U.S. debt.

Greece has about $0.5 trillion in Debt. The US is closing in on $16 trillion.

The US GDP is $14.6 trillion. Greece's GDP is $0.3 trillion. So Greece's debt is 130% of GDP. The US's debt is about 109% of GDP.

There's a ton of other differences, but the Greek debt crisis is certainly not "a drop in the ocean" compared to the US.

I never said the Germans would leave, I meant they would issue the Deutschmark the second the Euro inevitably collapses

Well, if the Euro were to collapse, and Germany were to abandon it, the EU would be a radically different beast.

biccat wrote:

Joey wrote:Really? Explain how the Greek government being gak is going to make German exported goods worth less to the people who buy them.
You can't, because it won't. Germany will do fine with or without southern Europe.

It depends on how the rest of the Euro reacts to a Greek default.

If the monetary agency reacts by instituting inflation (printing more money) to pay off the Greek bondholders then it most certainly would affect Germany, making their assets worth less.

If they don't print money to cover the debts then it shows that Europe isn't really a centralized monetary union and could reduce confidence of borrowers of future debt, thereby raising borrowing costs.

Well no. The European bank is in the pockets of the Germans, it'll do whatever they want. If it wants to print money to pay off Greek debt (very unlikely) then in the process German exports will become more profitable. With their huge reliance on exports as a section of GDP this would actually be a very good thing.
The French/Germans already practically control the Greek/Italian governments. Give them a couple of years and they'll sort things out.

biccat wrote:

Joey wrote:Why would the Germans leave the Euro?

So that the Greeks can't destroy their currency.

Except a sovereign debt crisis only affects currency as much as the monetary policy allows it to. And who controls Greek monetary policy? The Germans.

biccat wrote:

Sonophos wrote:To be quite frank the Greek debt crisis is a drop in the ocean by comparison to U.S. debt.

Greece has about $0.5 trillion in Debt. The US is closing in on $16 trillion.

The US GDP is $14.6 trillion. Greece's GDP is $0.3 trillion. So Greece's debt is 130% of GDP. The US's debt is about 109% of GDP.

There's a ton of other differences, but the Greek debt crisis is certainly not "a drop in the ocean" compared to the US.

Greece is only important in as far as it affects Italy and Spain. Then you're talking real numbers.
And no one cares about America any more. You get the governments you vote for(unless you're Greek or Italian), deal with it.

DeadlySquirrel wrote:I never said the Germans would leave, I meant they would issue the Deutschmark the second the Euro inevitably collapses

i've heard that Greece is doing the same.