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If I was super crazy, I would take one for each of my Dominions.

Priests lack Scout, so Dominions would lose it if priest joins em (as Scout USR has an asterick). All you could do is maybe a sling shot of sorts with a big dom squad (chain back so priest can join them).

winterman wrote:Priests lack Scout, so Dominions would lose it if priest joins em (as Scout USR has an asterick). All you could do is maybe a sling shot of sorts with a big dom squad (chain back so priest can join them).

Nice catch. Dammit. So they really only work with Celestians then, which is higher points (2 to 2.5k).

I did say I'd have to be crazy to do it.

I never leave home without a ret squad with heavy flamers. I call the TROGDOR! I usually hold them back against marines as they can make an entire unit of droppodding marines disappear.

Yeah priests don't seem worthwhile, maybe in a big block of sisters in a horde list. Its too bad they nixed the zealots idea from white dwarf of old, that would have made priests worthwhile as well.

winterman wrote:Yeah priests don't seem worthwhile, maybe in a big block of sisters in a horde list. Its too bad they nixed the zealots idea from white dwarf of old, that would have made priests worthwhile as well.

Yeah, Zealots (and before them Redemptionists) were pretty excellent as deadly cannon fodder.

I think that the only good thing Preachers add are Eviscerators and they are soo spendy (70 points for a 1W 4++ Eviscerator IC). If they were upgrade characters like Wolf Guard, that would go a long way to making them useful. Not being able to throw them in with Doms really crimps my plans. That means basically that only Celestians could use them in most of my lists because of rhino transport limits.

I don't really see why 4 Rending Heavy flamers is that much more exciting than 3 rending flamers were in the old codex, 3 was enough to destroy MEQ squads in the first place...

It is too bad Celestians cannot get an Eviscerator, I used to run Canoness w/ Eviscerator in a Retinue w/ Eviscerator w/ a Priest (took it for the comp score associated with taking 2 Penitent Engines) and that unit actually did some interesting stuff! Mainly to vehicles, 9 Chain fist smacks re-rolling misses on a Land Raider was pretty good.

calypso2ts wrote:I don't really see why 4 Rending Heavy flamers is that much more exciting than 3 rending flamers were in the old codex, 3 was enough to destroy MEQ squads in the first place...

It isn't that much different, although I believe retributors couldn't take HF in C:WH. In 3rd edition though, I ran the easy bake oven for quite some time.

It is too bad Celestians cannot get an Eviscerator, I used to run Canoness w/ Eviscerator in a Retinue w/ Eviscerator w/ a Priest (took it for the comp score associated with taking 2 Penitent Engines) and that unit actually did some interesting stuff! Mainly to vehicles, 9 Chain fist smacks re-rolling misses on a Land Raider was pretty good.

Yep. The elite slot is sorely lacking right now.

I was thinking the 3 I ran in my standard SoB squad, rets couldn't take a HF in the old one, I am just not that excited by the idea of 4 Rending Flamers at the cost of an exorcist. Especially since most people did not run the Easy Bake configuration on Doms which is almost functionally equivalent.

As an aside, my buddys car broke down again so no SoB last night, tomorrow looks promising though!

calypso2ts wrote:I was thinking the 3 I ran in my standard SoB squad, rets couldn't take a HF in the old one, I am just not that excited by the idea of 4 Rending Flamers at the cost of an exorcist. Especially since most people did not run the Easy Bake configuration on Doms which is almost functionally equivalent.

Ahh, 3 in a normal. Yeah, I never did that. In 3rd and 5th, I did Melta/Heavy Flamer (skipped 4th) for BSS. Didn't run Dominions until 5th and ran an 1-2 exorcists and 1-2 rets in 3rd (one HB, one Easy Bake).

Yeah, I'm in super love with 2xFlamer Dominions. I think I mentioned in my first game that I evaporated a 10 man GH squad with them and in game 2 a 9 man BA Assault with Priest. It was hilarious.

pretre wrote:Yeah, I'm in super love with 2xFlamer Dominions. I think I mentioned in my first game that I evaporated a 10 man GH squad with them and in game 2 a 9 man BA Assault with Priest. It was hilarious.

How did this happen? Did your opponent just have terrible luck w/ saves? Even with twin-linked and somehow getting all 10 models under each template, you'd still only typically kill about 4 or 5 marines. That drops down to 2 or 3 for the BAs w/ FNP.

That's always been my aversion to flamer Dominions. In a small squad it seems like they can't put out enough wounds to kill outright whatever they're shooting at. Couple that with the lack of bodies and they'll be eaten without having accomplished much.

Amerikon wrote:

pretre wrote:Yeah, I'm in super love with 2xFlamer Dominions. I think I mentioned in my first game that I evaporated a 10 man GH squad with them and in game 2 a 9 man BA Assault with Priest. It was hilarious.

How did this happen? Did your opponent just have terrible luck w/ saves? Even with twin-linked and somehow getting all 10 models under each template, you'd still only typically kill about 4 or 5 marines. That drops down to 2 or 3 for the BAs w/ FNP.

Pop a transport. Unit is stuck in the wrecked crater. (Or tank shock them into a group.) Pop out a (or two)dominion squad and rapid fire.
I think in game one I dropped 17 wounds with the first squad of dominions (10 man). Second squad cleaned it up with another 14 or so wounds. In the BA game, his priest died to the first volley (again 2 squads vs his one).

That's always been my aversion to flamer Dominions. In a small squad it seems like they can't put out enough wounds to kill outright whatever they're shooting at. Couple that with the lack of bodies and they'll be eaten without having accomplished much.

One squad will eat a small squad, two will kill most big things.

Any news on plastic sisters, I heard some discussion a ways back but it pittered out. Good games pretre! I laughed when you handled those GK's

Red Corsair wrote:Any news on plastic sisters, I heard some discussion a ways back but it pittered out. Good games pretre! I laughed when you handled those GK's

Heh. That's what they get. My sisters will put anyone in their place.

As to your first question, same news that we've had for the last 15-20 years: 'Soon...'

Don't see the attraction/usefulness of the flamer Doms. In my opinion they scout so they can melta things to death witht their guns then heavy flame something to death with the vehicle.

Other people seem to do it in reverse. I typically get 20-25 wounds with my seraphim with handflamers with the rerolls.

Celtic Strike wrote: Don't see the attraction/usefulness of the flamer Doms. In my opinion they scout so they can melta things to death witht their guns then heavy flame something to death with the vehicle.

If you melta with the vehicle, you can choose not to disembark the dominions. If you melta with the dominions, then they are disembarked and sacrificed. I will quite often keep them in until I really need them in turns 2+ while the Immo does the pop-work.

Other people seem to do it in reverse. I typically get 20-25 wounds with my seraphim with handflamers with the rerolls.

Not bad. 4 templates is pretty nice.

pretre wrote:

Celtic Strike wrote: Don't see the attraction/usefulness of the flamer Doms. In my opinion they scout so they can melta things to death witht their guns then heavy flame something to death with the vehicle.

If you melta with the vehicle, you can choose not to disembark the dominions. If you melta with the dominions, then they are disembarked and sacrificed. I will quite often keep them in until I really need them in turns 2+ while the Immo does the pop-work.

When I play it out in my head, I'm thinking you can't disembark the Dominions on Turn 1 since you're either out of flamer range or you're gambling that the Immolator's MM will break the vehicle. So in order for flamer Dominons to work, you'd need to break the vehicle Turn 1 and hope you survive until Turn 2 when you can get in range of the contents. How does it actually work on the table?

typically get 20-25 wounds with my seraphim with handflamers with the rerolls.

pretre wrote:Not bad. 4 templates is pretty nice.

When I played jy2 last week, I think he was pretty surprised by the piles of dice the Seraphim were generating. Being able to charge after firing is really nice too. If I could change anything about them, I'd want the VSS to be able to take a melta-pistol. It would also be nice if their flamers were AP5.

How many wounds can three twinlinked flamers generate compared to 4 rending heavy flamers?

That being said, the Ret squad costs 230 so that's a comparison worth making.

Id also like to add that there's three SOB related battle reports near the top, mine is the only one with full video and music and its also the least popular. Hahaha. Pointing out my jealousy

Amerikon wrote:When I play it out in my head, I'm thinking you can't disembark the Dominions on Turn 1 since you're either out of flamer range or you're gambling that the Immolator's MM will break the vehicle. So in order for flamer Dominons to work, you'd need to break the vehicle Turn 1 and hope you survive until Turn 2 when you can get in range of the contents. How does it actually work on the table?

But the idea is not to pop them out turn 1. If you pop them out turn 1, they are about to die or you have already won the game. The idea is to keep them in as long as possible and only pop them out when you need that extra oomph.

When I played jy2 last week, I think he was pretty surprised by the piles of dice the Seraphim were generating. Being able to charge after firing is really nice too. If I could change anything about them, I'd want the VSS to be able to take a melta-pistol. It would also be nice if their flamers were AP5.

Yeah, having one template at S4, AP5, is probably still better than 2 at 3/6.

Sister superior being able to takw TWO melta pistols would be better... haha

pretre wrote:

Amerikon wrote:When I play it out in my head, I'm thinking you can't disembark the Dominions on Turn 1 since you're either out of flamer range or you're gambling that the Immolator's MM will break the vehicle. So in order for flamer Dominons to work, you'd need to break the vehicle Turn 1 and hope you survive until Turn 2 when you can get in range of the contents. How does it actually work on the table?

But the idea is not to pop them out turn 1. If you pop them out turn 1, they are about to die or you have already won the game. The idea is to keep them in as long as possible and only pop them out when you need that extra oomph.

That's kind of what I said. I said you can't take them out Turn 1 because you're either going to get lucky and they'll kill something or (more likely) they'll die.

Here's the point:
After scouting and whatnot with your Immolator you're very close to the enemy so the likelihood of one of your Dominion squads getting killed before it can do anything seems high. Basically, the Immolator does its job and then gets blasted on the next turn leaving the Dominions sitting around as the only target that's in range of anti-infantry weapons.

That scenario isn't going to happen all the time, but it should happen some of the time. (20-30% maybe?)



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Celtic Strike wrote:Sister superior being able to takw TWO melta pistols would be better... haha

I didn't want to get greedy.
I'd also appreciate a points drop on the flamers. If Dominions can buy 4 real Flamers for 20pts, I think it's a bit silly to make Seras pay double that for the weak sauce versions.

What are "Nova Missions"?

Well I'm actually okay with the points costs of the seras and their pistols. When you think about all the bonuses they get for only 15 points, it's pretty ridiculous.

As for Rets Vs Doms Vs Seraphim debate, lets look at them in comparison.

First some control assumptions:
1) Assume 5 hits per template vs a marine squad
2) Assume only flamers hit
3) Assume NO transports

5 Dominions, 2 Flamers, 1 Combi flamer = 90 points
5 Retributors, 4 Heavy flamers = 145 points
5 Seraphim, 2 twin hand flamers =120 points

Doms = 15 hits
Rets = 20 hits
Sera = 20 hits

Doms = 11.25 wounds
Rets = 13.2 wounds
Sera = 11 wounds

Doms = 3.7 Dead MEQ
Rets = 5.75 Dead MEQ (Including roughly 2 Rends)
Sera = 3.65 Dead MEQ

Doms = 0.041 Dead MEQ per point
Rets = 0.040 Dead MEQ per point
Sera = 0.030 Dead MEQ per point

Well, after that examination it looks like Doms and Rets are roughly equal with Seraphim lagging behind. Now, Seraphim aren't as obviously disadvantaged as it appears on first glance.

Here's the advantages they have:
They don't need a transport, they get to move 12 and run without the added cost/ protection of an Immolator.

They have roughly a 21% chance of getting their 6++ save because of their re-roll (7-ish % more) AND double the chance of getting their Act of faith off for FREE.

(If Rets and Doms want that ability it costs them an extra 20 points per squad which brings their effectiveness down quiet considerably, roughly the same as the naked Seraphim 0.035 and 0.034 respectively)

The Rets and the Doms have to buy a Rhino/Immolator if they want to be used effectively, bringing their kill/cost ratio down even lower (Several points below that of the Seraphim) but gain considerable firepower range and protection so it becomes something of a moot point.

Doms have the ability to scout, gaining first turn kills and disruption or outflank, destroying hidden units or hard to get artillery pieces.

So, overall, they're pretty comparable when looked at from a purely mathematical perspective. At least Doms and Seraphim are, their increased mobility (Scout/Cheap jump units) gives them more flexibility than Retributors but the Rets a slightly more killy (and more sexy fun in my opinion)

Celtic Strike wrote: Don't see the attraction/usefulness of the flamer Doms. In my opinion they scout so they can melta things to death witht their guns then heavy flame something to death with the vehicle.

Other people seem to do it in reverse. I typically get 20-25 wounds with my seraphim with handflamers with the rerolls.

I have been putting combi flamers in my Dom's lately. That extra template is perfect. double melta for the rest of the loadout in an immo with MM. I have thought about combi plasma too. I find my self using my Dominions to kill termies more and more.

At 1850 , I'm running double conclaves with a preist/eviserator in kyrinov's. At 2000 points I add a nother troop. At 2000+ I'm looking at elites like small celestian squads and Repentia.

I have thought about droppiong the second exorcist lately too. I have a Ret squad with 4 HF I want to test out. I know they kill stuff, it's the loss of the heavy slot and the anti-tank I'm worried about. With 3 Dominion squads and lots of melta, I think I might be ok without it.

Grats on the win! Nice reports and I love the Lamenters paint job! /jealous you got to play it!
I'm repainting my SoB for the Bugeater GT in Omaha, so I'm playing marines this weekend at Con of the North in Saint Paul MN.

Lordhat wrote:What are "Nova Missions"?

Nova Missions are missions based off of Mike Brandt's Nova Open event. It has been really successful as a competitive 40k event. One of the core ideas behind it is a no-draw type mission. I'm probably butchering a bit here, but there is more at http://www.novaopen.com/

Basically, the idea that was incorporated into this event is three objectives for each mission. Example: Primary - Kill Points, Secondary - Objectives, Tertiary - Quarters.

At the end of the game, you tally up each of the Primary, Secondary and Tertiary objectives. If you win the primary, you win. If you tie, then the secondary is compared. If you win that, you win. If that it tied, you go to Tertiary. If you win the Tertiary, you win. If that is tied, you go to Victory Points (Victory points is always the last tie breaker). If you win by 1 victory point, you win. This provides a win-loss environment that makes determining an all-out winner a bit easier. It also moves away from Battle Points where tabling your opponent is encouraged.

Hope that helps.


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Inquisitor_Dunn wrote:Grats on the win! Nice reports and I love the Lamenters paint job! /jealous you got to play it!
I'm repainting my SoB for the Bugeater GT in Omaha, so I'm playing marines this weekend at Con of the North in Saint Paul MN.

Thanks! Yeah, Chris' army is just beautiful. Good luck at the Bugeater!

Celtic Strike wrote:Well I'm actually okay with the points costs of the seras and their pistols. When you think about all the bonuses they get for only 15 points, it's pretty ridiculous.

As for Rets Vs Doms Vs Seraphim debate, lets look at them in comparison...

Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge Seraphim proponent, but I think it's more important to look at the weapon systems independent of the unit carrying it. Especially since the point costs for all weapon upgrades are standard across the codex (Dominions no longer pay a premium for being able to take four weapons).

So in Battle Sister, Celestian, and Dominion squads, GW has deemed a Flamer to be worth 5 points. If you use that as the baseline then 20 pts for two Hand Flamers and 20 pts for a Heavy Flamer would in both situations be overcosted. The cost of the Seraphim's pistols in both cases (flamer and melta) is 20 pts more than what a Dominion squad would pay for 4 of their similarly typed weapons. It seems like Seras are getting charged for their "free" Simulacrum (No such thing as a free Simulacrum?).

It almost makes sense for the flamers, but re-roll to wound is practically useless on the melta pistols, not to mention that 6" range is extremely restrictive. If they wanted to charge extra for the Simulacrum they should have just increased the base cost of the squad by 10 pts. But as it stands 20 pts for the flamers and 30 pts for the meltas is not in line with the rest of the codex.

I think 10 pts for the flamers and 20 pts for the meltas would be appropriate. This gives them the same price as two of their bigger versions. So you're still overspending for just the weapon, but it includes the inherent benefits of the unit. (On second thought, the meltas are significanly gimped enough that 15 pts might be the appropriate price for them.) Similarly, a Heavy Flamer should probably be 12 or 15 points.

Celtic Strike wrote:They have roughly a 21% chance of getting their 6++ save because of their re-roll (7-ish % more) AND double the chance of getting their Act of faith off for FREE.

It's actually even better than that. It's more like 31%. A 6++ w/ re-roll is only slightly worse than a 5++. One more reason I think Seras are under-rated. That and Hit-and-Run is still pretty stellar even if you've only got a 50/50 shot at it.

I think the 5 points for a basic sisters flamer is too much. SM get them for free

Celtic Strike wrote:I think the 5 points for a basic sisters flamer is too much. SM get them for free

Yeah, but Space Marines have an opportunity cost to get a free flamer. I wish that we had opportunity costs.

I'm afraid I don't follow.

I would like the ability to take the options again if you take a 20 girl squad.

I.E 20 girls can get 4 meltas or 2 meltas and 2 Multi meltas ect

pretre wrote:
But the idea is not to pop them out turn 1. If you pop them out turn 1, they are about to die or you have already won the game. The idea is to keep them in as long as possible and only pop them out when you need that extra oomph.

I will move my Immolators 12 inches and dump out the Dominions in a heart beat if it gives them the chance to destroy an enemy troop unit. . . in a heart beat. At least, I will in objective missions.

pzbw7z wrote:

pretre wrote:
But the idea is not to pop them out turn 1. If you pop them out turn 1, they are about to die or you have already won the game. The idea is to keep them in as long as possible and only pop them out when you need that extra oomph.

I will move my Immolators 12 inches and dump out the Dominions in a heart beat if it gives them the chance to destroy an enemy troop unit. . . in a heart beat. At least, I will in objective missions.

Right and I will do the same, in fact you can see that I did do the same. The difference is that I have an option.