Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

AegisGrimm wrote:

Nope, the last of that was abolished when SoB and GK got their new codexes.

Bummer, that's dumb.

I'd still allow it in fun games, though. A gamer group that doesn't allow small exceptions is not one I want to join, as they take the hobby far too seriously.

I agree, though I made a house rule that they have adopted:

"25% of your force may be from another single codex given these restrictions:"

Basically IG can work with SM, SoB, GK, etc, SM with IG, other Marines, SoB, GK, etc, same with xenos, they were cool with that. They are even cool with Fandexes, just for some reason were not cool with me using BA stuff outside of it's respective codex.

LunaHound wrote:I would be 100% fine with it or eles it'll just be another good reason to NOT paint your armies

Absolutely agree.

Kaldor wrote:

Abyssel wrote: Once again, paint is paint

Paint is not just paint. At what point do we stop playing a miniatures wargame and start playing with cardboard chits with 'plasma gunner' and 'landraider' written on it? Where exactly is the line?

The line is drawn when they stop having Models. if you want to paint your army as X, because you love the way X looks, but you want to play them as Y because you like the way Y plays. go for it. if you want to draw up a thousand pieces of cardboard and write "plasma gunner" or "slugga boy" on it, you'd better be planning on purchasing those models in the foreseeable future.

Big Mek Dattrukk wrote:The line is drawn when they stop having Models. if you want to paint your army as X, because you love the way X looks, but you want to play them as Y because you like the way Y plays. go for it. if you want to draw up a thousand pieces of cardboard and write "plasma gunner" or "slugga boy" on it, you'd better be planning on purchasing those models in the foreseeable future.

Why draw the line there? Why should I have to buy the models? Is that any less 'elitist' than saying you should buy the right models?

Kaldor wrote:

Abyssel wrote: Once again, paint is paint

Paint is not just paint. At what point do we stop playing a miniatures wargame and start playing with cardboard chits with 'plasma gunner' and 'landraider' written on it? Where exactly is the line?

For me, as soon as we decide we don't care what rules should be associated with our models, and we use whatever rules we want, we have crossed that line and we may as well be playing with bits of cardboard.

So you are saying you would refuse to play Blood Angels that had a blue, or black, or green, silver, or grey color scheme?

Would you refuse to play with marines from Codex Space Marines that were Black, or Silver or Red?

Because the Balck Consuls are in black armor, the Silver Skulls are in silver armor, and the Genesis Chapter are in red armor, and their Primarch is Guilliman, all three chapters are based off the same Primarch as the Ultramarines, so they would all use Codex Space Marines.

Color scheme does not matter, paint your models whatever color you want, they are your models after all.
As long as WYSIWYG then no opponent that wants a fun game should complain at all.

DeathReaper wrote:So you are saying you would refuse to play Blood Angels that had a blue, or black, or green, silver, or grey color scheme?

Are you saying that a blue colour scheme is the same as using ultramarine models?

As long as WYSIWYG then no opponent that wants a fun game should complain at all.

If I'm seeing Ultramarines chapter symbols, and I'm getting Space Wolf rules, then I'm not getting what I'm seeing, am I?

Kaldor wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:So you are saying you would refuse to play Blood Angels that had a blue, or black, or green, silver, or grey color scheme?

Are you saying that a blue colour scheme is the same as using ultramarine models?

You didn't answer his question. Would you refuse to play an army that used an alternate colour-scheme to the ones presented by GW?
Can I paint my Dark Angels grey? What about my Blood Angels? My Space Wolves? Black Templars?

As long as WYSIWYG then no opponent that wants a fun game should complain at all.

If I'm seeing Ultramarines chapter symbols, and I'm getting Space Wolf rules, then I'm not getting what I'm seeing, am I?

That is not what the WYSIWYG rules in 40k talks about. It talks about models and their game-play upgrades.

Kaldor wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:So you are saying you would refuse to play Blood Angels that had a blue, or black, or green, silver, or grey color scheme?

Are you saying that a blue colour scheme is the same as using ultramarine models?

A marine with a bolter painted blue, and that same model painted red are just a marine model with a red or blue paint job.

No one said anything about chapter symbols. Even then, take the "Omega Angels" they have a blue paint job, but are a blood angels successor chapter. They even wear an Omega symbol, upside down, on their armor as they find it is a lucky symbol and they do not wear it the regular way, since they do not want the luck to run out.

Kaldor wrote:If I'm seeing Ultramarines chapter symbols, and I'm getting Space Wolf rules, then I'm not getting what I'm seeing, am I?

WYSIWYG refers to upgrades not chapter symbols. Please re-read the brb P. 47 for WYSIWYG

I will ask again:
Are you saying that you would refuse to play Blood Angels that had a blue, or black, or green, silver, or grey color scheme?

Would you refuse to play with marines from Codex Space Marines that were Black, or Silver or Red?

Steelmage99 wrote:You didn't answer his question.

Well spotted.

That is not what the WYSIWYG rules in 40k talks about. It talks about models and their game-play upgrades.

Specific models have specific rules. C:SM tactical squads have combat tactics, Grey Hunters have acute senses, Blood Angels have the red thirst. If I'm seeing Blood Angles iconography and I'm getting models with acute sense, then I'm not getting what I'm seeing, am I?

Kaldor wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:You didn't answer his question.

Well spotted.

So that is you conceding your point and realizing that it was invalid?

That is not what the WYSIWYG rules in 40k talks about. It talks about models and their game-play upgrades.

Specific models have specific rules. C:SM tactical squads have combat tactics, Grey Hunters have acute senses, Blood Angels have the red thirst. If I'm seeing Blood Angles iconography and I'm getting models with acute sense, then I'm not getting what I'm seeing, am I?

Again you bring up things that the WYSIWYG rules doesn't address.
You cannot just expand the scope of a rule to your liking, present it as an argument and expect not to be called on it.

DeathReaper wrote:[A marine with a bolter painted blue, and that same model painted red are just a marine model with a red or blue paint job.

Which is just the same as bare plastic, right?

Kaldor wrote:Specific models have specific rules. C:SM tactical squads have combat tactics, Grey Hunters have acute senses, Blood Angels have the red thirst. If I'm seeing Blood Angles iconography and I'm getting models with acute sense, then I'm not getting what I'm seeing, am I?

Actually you are, because the winged blood drop belongs to a secret successor chapter of Space wolves called "Winged Wolves" they wear red armor to blend into their volcanic home world where they maintain a secret fortress, and are only called upon in times of dire need.

and again, re-read WYSIWYG on P.47

Kaldor wrote:Which is just the same as bare plastic, right?

No, a painted marine is not the same as bare plastic, one has paint one does not.

Did you really need that one answered for you?

Steelmage99 wrote:So that is you conceding your point and realizing that it was invalid?

Hardly. The question contained a fallacy that, by answering, I would be validating.

Again you bring up things that the WYSIWYG rules doesn't address.
You cannot just expand the scope of a rule to your liking, present it as an argument and expect not to be called on it.

Don't be daft. WYSISWY is only a convention, not a rule, and only refers to characters in the box-out on page 47.

DeathReaper wrote:Actually you are, because the winged blood drop belongs to a secret successor chapter of Space wolves called "Winged Wolves" they wear red armor to blend into their volcanic home world where they maintain a secret fortress, and are only called upon in times of dire need.

And the second you start doing stuff like this, you've crossed the line from 'miniatures wargame' to 'cardboard playing chits'. Like I said above, you can run a list however you want but swapping codexes whenever you want is really poor form. Lets be very clear on that. As soon as you start doing that you may as well be using orks as eldar, grots as terminators, or paint-pots as genestealers.

Do you see the difference?

DeathReaper wrote:No, a painted marine is not the same as bare plastic, one has paint one does not.

Oh, for goodness sake. Really? Thats pretty juvenile.

Kaldor wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:So that is you conceding your point and realizing that it was invalid?

Hardly. The question contained a fallacy that, by answering, I would be validating.

Which fallacy would that be?

Steelmage99 wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:So that is you conceding your point and realizing that it was invalid?

Hardly. The question contained a fallacy that, by answering, I would be validating.

Which fallacy would that be?

It's getting off topic, but...

The question implied that the only difference between Marine armies was the paint-colour. By answering I would be agreeing to that implication, no matter how much I protested the fact. I don't agree to it.

I don't see that implication at all. But each to their own.

We'll just agree to disagree on that point.

Kaldor wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:Actually you are, because the winged blood drop belongs to a secret successor chapter of Space wolves called "Winged Wolves" they wear red armor to blend into their volcanic home world where they maintain a secret fortress, and are only called upon in times of dire need.

And the second you start doing stuff like this, you've crossed the line from 'miniatures wargame' to 'cardboard playing chits'. Like I said above, you can run a list however you want but swapping codexes whenever you want is really poor form. Lets be very clear on that. As soon as you start doing that you may as well be using orks as eldar, grots as terminators, or paint-pots as genestealers.

Do you see the difference?

I do see the difference, Clearly a Eldar and an Ork look very different, anyone should be able to tell them apart.

Not playing someone because they use a certain paint scheme on their models, no matter what codex they are using, is silly.

The rules do not govern how you paint your models and you are free to paint them, and apply any stickers to them that you like.

The pieces on the table are simply a representation of the rules.

I have a question I would like answered if you would please.

I have a Librarian in Terminator armor and Storm Shield I use in my games. He is painted to match the rest of my army, but the model is the same model seen below (Minus the banner because I did not like the look of it). The question is: Would you refuse to play against me because I use this as my Blood Angles Librarian?



P.S. the only difference between Marine armies is the paint-color (For standard units that are in every book, like TH/SS terminators are the same in all marine armies that have TH/SS terminators, or Assault marines are the same in all books etc.)

I completely agree with Kaldor.

I was originally going to quote a ton of posts, but I'll refrain.

I have no problem with a force of marines in a blue colour scheme using the BA codex. They could be BA successors, after all.

But I have a problem with:
1. A force of Ultramarines (or any other non-BA-successor) using the BA codex.*
2. A DIY chapter which the player claims to be non-BA-successors using the BA codex.
3. The same in relation to all other codices, ie non-DA-successor using CA etc.


Why is that? Because, as Kaldor did point out somewhere, background is an important part of the game. Rules are written to represent the background. Ultramarines do not have the red thirst, nor acute senses. Dark Angels do not have wolf tail talismans or sagas. If you use SW rules for DA, the game feels wrong to me, and I wouldn't enjoy it, therefore I would prefer to play someone who is using the right codex.

So a blue BA successor is fine - it is imaginable within the rules of the shared universe's background that the BA have a blue successor chapter, no problems there. But Ultramarines most definitely are not a BA successor. And that's the end of it for me.

I often read "It doesn't matter how they are painted." Well, not the colour scheme as such, but it does matter what chapter they are supposed to represent. Sure, there could be a wolf lord who decides his great company now wear red, but they would certainly not wear the blood angel icon and have their wolf guard wear golden nipple armour and so on (and no, it is not imaginable within the rules of the shared universe's background that the SW have a successor, either).

There is no difference between using orks as necrons and using UMs as BA. Now if you use models from the BA range and convert and paint them in a way that they look like UMs (or Black Consuls, or Hawk Lords, or whatever other codex chapter), then including them in a UM force is no problem. If you could convert necron models to look like something from the ork codex, I'm not going to see a problem either - and I am actually sure there are some people who already managed that, if not, we definitely need more looted ghost arks.



* (And that isn't even about the markings alone. It is about what the player wants his models to be. Someone telling me "I play my Ultramarines using BA rules 'cause I like those better", I instantly detest him and won't play him. If he says "This is my new BA successor chapter, I'm using some old models from my UMs, but I'm going to repaint them soon" I'll ask him for a game and I'll enjoy it.)




Automatically Appended Next Post:

DeathReaper wrote:
P.S. the only difference between Marine armies is the paint-color (For standard units that are in every book, like TH/SS terminators are the same in all marine armies that have TH/SS terminators, or Assault marines are the same in all books etc.)

Okay, now there's one quote that I can easily make my point with.

No, it is not. If it were, there would only be a single MEQ codex. The differences between marine armies include, but are not limited to:
- background
- paint scheme recommendations (the colour schemes of actual chapters are background material, not rules on how to paint your models)
- playstyle
- look&feel (a term used by designers to describe differences in style which are hard to actually put into words - necrons have a different l&f than orks, but UMs also have a different l&f than BA)
- model range


Btw, the model you use as BA librarian has Inquisition and Grey Knight markings modelled on. If you convert it, for example by scraping those markings off, then you can use it as your BA librarian. If you do not convert it, then it is, at most, a proxy.

Kaldor wrote:

Abyssel wrote: Once again, paint is paint

Paint is not just paint. At what point do we stop playing a miniatures wargame and start playing with cardboard chits with 'plasma gunner' and 'landraider' written on it? Where exactly is the line?

For me, as soon as we decide we don't care what rules should be associated with our models, and we use whatever rules we want, we have crossed that line and we may as well be playing with bits of cardboard.

At least painting them is painting them, would you prefer that we simply use unpainted models to prevent issues?

It should be fine as long as you tell your opponent right off the bat in a game. I run my Grey Knights painted as Exorcists because I love there fluff and colors better and C:GK is the closest to the Exorcist's fluff abilities.

I would not care at all as long as it's very clear what everything is.. and everything is essentially the same size it should be. I think almost everyone can understand it's an expensive hobby and you might just want to try something different.

The Mad Tanker wrote:It should be fine as long as you tell your opponent right off the bat in a game. I run my Grey Knights painted as Exorcists because I love there fluff and colors better and C:GK is the closest to the Exorcist's fluff abilities.

Now that is a good reason to use the GK codex for non-GK. Because it allows the rules to represent the background. Using rules like red thirst to represent Ultramarines is gak.

I'd make a bet that Stormravens are going to be in the next vanilla SM codex anyway (which will probably be the first in 6th ed.)

Untill then I personally would have no problem with you fielding Ultras as counts as Blood Angles. Ultras as couts as guard or tyrands, that would get confusing. BAs, go for it.

In a friendly game this shouldn't matter at all.

Skylifter wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:
P.S. the only difference between Marine armies is the paint-color (For standard units that are in every book, like TH/SS terminators are the same in all marine armies that have TH/SS terminators, or Assault marines are the same in all books etc.)

Okay, now there's one quote that I can easily make my point with.

No, it is not. If it were, there would only be a single MEQ codex. The differences between marine armies include, but are not limited to:
- background
- paint scheme recommendations (the colour schemes of actual chapters are background material, not rules on how to paint your models)
- playstyle
- look&feel (a term used by designers to describe differences in style which are hard to actually put into words - necrons have a different l&f than orks, but UMs also have a different l&f than BA)
- model range

Btw, the model you use as BA librarian has Inquisition and Grey Knight markings modelled on. If you convert it, for example by scraping those markings off, then you can use it as your BA librarian. If you do not convert it, then it is, at most, a proxy.

The only converting I did was I removed the Stormbolter. it still has the books and sword icons on it.

- background (Does not matter in the 40k BRB) so there is no difference there.
- paint scheme recommendations (the colour schemes of actual chapters are background material, not rules on how to paint your models) (See Background above)
- playstyle (The BRB says nothing about this either)
- look&feel (The BRB says nothing about this either)
- model range (The BRB says nothing about this either)

As you can see, the only difference between a Space wolf Grey Hunter, and a Tactical marine is the paint job.

There is nothing against using the model in the Pic for any chapter of marine, regardless of the symbols he has on him.

When I use him, I say that he is on loan from the grey knights assisting my Blood Angels with a special mission. the roleplay does not matter to me, but some opponents get all worked up when they see that model, I tell them about the GK helping out the BA, and they calm down.(Not that I encounter many of those people).

It is not a proxy, it is a Psyker with a Storm Shield, and a Force Weapon.

Most players will be fine with this. If some aren't, they won't play against you. Some people won't play specific armies anyway. They don't see them as fun, they don't like the rules, they don't like the fluff, etc. This is no different. Don't let other people's quibbles ruin your fun.

DeathReaper wrote:
The only converting I did was I removed the Stormbolter. it still has the books and sword icons on it.

- background (Does not matter in the 40k BRB) so there is no difference there.

Well, it does matter to me. Else I could be playing with chits of paper, as Kaldor rightly said, and I could also stop calling them space marines and just call them unit type a, unit type b, etc. If I didn't like the background so much, if I was just in it for playing a challenging game, I'd play something else with less complicated and partly contradictory rules.

DeathReaper wrote:
When I use him, I say that he is on loan from the grey knights assisting my Blood Angels with a special mission. the roleplay does not matter to me, but some opponents get all worked up when they see that model, I tell them about the GK helping out the BA, and they calm down.(Not that I encounter many of those people).

It is not a proxy, it is a Psyker with a Storm Shield, and a Force Weapon.

To me, it is a proxy, and your explanation doesn't explain why it is painted red then. I am one of those people who 'get all worked up', as you so derogatorily put it. You should accept that some people enjoy the game for its roleplaying aspect much more than for its tactical aspect. If you do not care for the background, that does not make your view any more right, just different.

To me and most people I know, 40K is nothing without the background. Therefore, I will not play someone who disregards the background - I simply wouldn't enjoy it.

"get all worked up" was not meant as derogatory.

Also, he is painted black and orange which matches the colors of my other blood angels. (Blood Reapers Chapter)

He had his armor repainted because they were going to a world that needed cleansing, and the occupants of said world have a tight time fighting against a unified force.

I am not against the role play, I don't disregard the background, but I do still play the game by the rules, and the rules conflict with the background on many occasions.

A space marine in power armor with a bolter is a space marine in PA with a bolter. I could field an army with every single member is from a different chapter with different paint schemes for each model, and run them as any codex I want.

Some people just want to game and couldn't care less about the background fluff. It makes a cool story, but has no bearing on gameplay. Things like paint schemes don't fall under rules, so stop pretending like they do.

Somebody asking to play space marines with appropriate wargear as space marines from any codex shouldn't be penalized because you want them to buy a completely new army or their paint scheme doesn't match your approval.

This is an expensive hobby, some people can only afford one set of miniatures. If you want him to have a paint scheme to match the book he is using, buy him the models or get over it.

-cgmckenzie

I agree, though I made a house rule that they have adopted:

"25% of your force may be from another single codex given these restrictions:"

Actually, funny enough, that's close to the same as in 2nd edition. It used to be that you could take Allies in your main force, but only up to 50% of the total points of the whole force. And back then they came from the "Support" section, which was essentially what Heavy Support is now.

For instance, Codex: Ultramarines (Which was just all vanilla chapters, really) allowed, other Space marine codexes, Imperial Guard, Imperial Agents (Inquisition and assassins), Squats, and Eldar (but you couldn't take an Avatar).

Also, because there are so many Chapters out there (1,000), it's perfectly acceptable to field a successor of the Salamanders that uses bright pink heraldry and uses the Sally rules. Or bright yellow Space Wolves. Nothing in the rules says that if you aren't using a First Founding chapter, you can't use their codex.

This should be the rule in friendly games, rather than the exception. But maybe that's just 5th edition, because things have definitely narrowed since the earlier games.

To me, it is a proxy, and your explanation doesn't explain why it is painted red then. I am one of those people who 'get all worked up', as you so derogatorily put it. You should accept that some people enjoy the game for its roleplaying aspect much more than for its tactical aspect. If you do not care for the background, that does not make your view any more right, just different.

To me and most people I know, 40K is nothing without the background. Therefore, I will not play someone who disregards the background - I simply wouldn't enjoy it.

So am I to assume that I can't therefor buy Pedro Cantor and paint him in Ultramarine or Dark Angels colors to use as a generic Captain with powerfist and stormbolter? Wow, I must officially be an "oldie" now, because things have definitely changed about 100% since I first got into the game.
.

I don't really care what paint scheme the army is using as long as the weapons and gear is what you see is what you get. I've done different marines chapter armies over the years and it gets expensive. As long as the model has the weapons and gear its supposed to I don't care if your using Blood Angel rules with ultra marines colors. Mixing codex rules however is not legal.