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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Eye of Terror

Okay let us all be nice like at a tea party with cakes and icing. Powerfist is now listed as having I1, which means any model with initiative higher hits first. No one here can provide any proof that there is an attack in close combat that comes after I1. I am being practical and a good sport whereas others here are attempting to bend the rules in their favor and cast ill light upon Slaanesh.

Also no one here has presented the rules in such as a light as to verify that the doom siren rule has priority over the powerfist rule... when you can do that I will shut up.

Okay!


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Philadelphia

How about the THammer '...any model wounded by it and not killed may not attack until the end of the next assault phase."  = I0??

From everyone's arguments above, I would think that the Siren + Pfist attacking first sounds right by the RAW.  I think there is still a lot of carry over from the 3rd ed TAR about what constitutes 'attacking first' (I10, or before I10) or 'attacks last' (I1 or I0). 

 


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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Eye of Terror

Yes the thunder hammer is one example, and the only one I could think of... and this is due to a special rule. So if a model had a Doom Siren and was struck by a thunder hammer, would he hit first the next turn?

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Dakka Veteran




Lexington, KY

"Don't wave RAW around like it is nobody's business... it doesn't intimidate me."

Read the sticky posts at the top of the forum.

"You have failed to present an actual case where something would hit after I1. I have not seen anything anywhere that has I0."

This is completely and utterly irrelevant. You have yet to show how it matters *at all*.

"That this whole discussion is based on taking aspiring champions with doomfists is enough for me to know that this is coming from a rule lawyering powergaming *&^%."

Argumentum ad hominem. *yawn*.

I play Word Bearers these days, anyway.

"Powerfist is now listed as having I1, which means any model with initiative higher hits first. No one here can provide any proof that there is an attack in close combat that comes after I1."

Irrelevant.

"Also no one here has presented the rules in such as a light as to verify that the doom siren rule has priority over the powerfist rule... when you can do that I will shut up."

Simple. The most current printing of the Chaos codex says Doom Sirens allow the user to strike first regardless of cover or weapon used. This is a more specific case than the power fist rules listed in the main rulebook and therefore the rule takes priority.


Stop trolling us so Lowinor and I can go back to beating each other's faces in. -pretre 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Lexington, KY

"Yes the thunder hammer is one example, and the only one I could think of... and this is due to a special rule. So if a model had a Doom Siren and was struck by a thunder hammer, would he hit first the next turn?"

Without getting into it, I don't think Thunder Hammers work how they're generally played... The rules are permissive as a base, and include no ability for one to voluntarily swing at an initiative different than your own. Thunder Hammers do not contain any rules which allow attacks to be *delayed*, only that you can't attack until I1 attacks are used. It would seem that a literal RAW interpretation of the Thunder Hammer stun would be that the model struck and wounded would only get to use I1 attacks in the next round and miss out on any others.

Stop trolling us so Lowinor and I can go back to beating each other's faces in. -pretre 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




Simple. The most current printing of the Chaos codex says Doom Sirens allow the user to strike first regardless of cover or weapon used. This is a more specific case than the power fist rules listed in the main rulebook and therefore the rule takes priority.


Don't the power fist rules say 'ignore wargear'? That seems equally as specific as a Doom Siren saying to ignore weapons.

The case for being at I1, yet striking first, seems, on the surface, to not break either the Doom Siren or the Power Fist rule. However, I'm not sure it wouldn't be breaking the rule that says that things that get to strike at higher initiatives go before things at lower initiatives. It's certainly not a watertight case.
   
Made in us
Master of the Hunt





Angmar

Posted By BloodyT on 03/09/2006 1:28 PM
... and this is due to a special rule.


Which is the entire point. I'm not saying that there are I0 or I11 models out there, I am simply saying that Initiative is the standard sequence and that there are special rules that allow models to strike before or after that sequence. Nowhere does it say that I1 "always strikes last".

So if a model had a Doom Siren and was struck by a thunder hammer, would he hit first the next turn?


Thats a good question. The C:SM T-Hammer says, "may not attack again unitl Initiative 1 blows are struck in the next assault phase", yet Doom Sirens allow you to "always strike first regardless of cover or weapons" (I think thats how its phrased, no chaos book on me at the moment, please correct me if I'm wrong! ). If I have that second quote right, then the T-Hammer is negated and you still strike first.

On the opposite end of the Init spectrum, the Doom Siren also allows you to strike before models in cover, since cover supplies I10, not "Strikes First".


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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Eye of Terror

Yeah exactly Relic_OMC... I do not know why these guys are getting so worked up about it. Blue Loki tried to pass this off on the 40k-Chaos forum was similiarly refuted.

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Dakka Veteran




Lexington, KY

"I do not know why these guys are getting so worked up about it."

The proponents are getting "worked up"? You're the one who has resorted to ad hominems on multiple occaisons.

Stop trolling us so Lowinor and I can go back to beating each other's faces in. -pretre 
   
Made in us
Widowmaker






Syracuse, NY

Posted By Relic_OMO on 03/09/2006 1:46 PM
The case for being at I1, yet striking first, seems, on the surface, to not break either the Doom Siren or the Power Fist rule. However, I'm not sure it wouldn't be breaking the rule that says that things that get to strike at higher initiatives go before things at lower initiatives. It's certainly not a watertight case.



Abuh?  Are you saying that since striking first overrides the rule of initiative order, that it cannot be done?  Gee someone better tell the banshees of the world. 

Bloody, you seem pissed because it is indeed powerful and not what fits your 'intent' schema.  If we're going to spank back and forth about intent, how about you tell us what the doomsiren rule actually means when it says 'strike first regardless of cover or weapon'.

 


   
Made in us
Master of the Hunt





Angmar

Posted By Relic_OMO on 03/09/2006 1:46 PM
Don't the power fist rules say 'ignore wargear'? That seems equally as specific as a Doom Siren saying to ignore weapons.

 It's certainly not a watertight case.



Absolutely! The case is nowhere near watertight, rather neither side can agree if the apparent leak is a leak. Hence, my encouragement to all of you to NOT TRY IT!

As for the "ignore wargear" clause, what are the limits of it? How must wargear effect the Fist before the Fist ignores it?

The Fist adjusts the initiative at which the model strikes. The Siren ignores the initiative at which the model strikes. The two are very close to interferring with each other, but neither actually interacts with the other. The Doom Fist is still striking at I1, it just happens to be doing it before I10 gets to strike. Similarly, a Non-fist-toting model with the siren is still striking at I4, but it does so before I10.

The bottom line is, the Fist does two things. One, it doubles the users strength. Two, it forces the user to strike at I1. The Fist should only be able to ignore wargear which interferes with these two effects. The Fist does not directly force you to strike last. Striking last is a by-product of the effects that it does create.

So, the Fist adjusts strength and initiative, and the Siren does not adjust strength or initiative. If the Fist ignores the effects of the Siren, why would it not also ignore all other pieces of wargear which do not effect initiative or strength?

See the conundrum? If the Fist ignores one piece of wargear which does not effect the same stats that it does, then it must ignore ALL pieces of wargear that do not effect the same stats that it does, which would include ALL wargear.

EDIT:

Posted By BloodyT
Yeah exactly Relic_OMC... I do not know why these guys are getting so worked up about it. Blue Loki tried to pass this off on the 40k-Chaos forum was similiarly refuted.

You are correct. I was refuted by the members refusal to admit that the "unofficial" FAQ was indeed "unofficial" and the fact that several of the members did not know of or refused to play by the 3rd printing of the codex. I also wanted to simply find out how people ACTUALLY play it, which is why I posted it there and not here, and I'm fine with that outcome as there is no way that I would trythe Doom Fist without an updated FAQ. What you do not seem to realize is that this forum is not about how people actually play it, rather its about disecting the rules to find out what they actually say. Which you would know had you read the sticky.


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It is by the seed of Arabica that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains, the stains become a warning.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion."
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Eye of Terror

"The bottom line is, the Fist does two things. One, it doubles the users strength. Two, it forces the user to strike at I1. The Fist should only be able to ignore wargear which interferes with these two effects. The Fist does not directly force you to strike last. Striking last is a by-product of the effects that it does create."

It also ignore armor saves.

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Master of the Hunt





Angmar

Oops, forgot a line.

"It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
It is by the seed of Arabica that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains, the stains become a warning.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion."
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




iowa

do codex rules override basic rule books still ?
and doom siren is not a piece of wargear, its a daemonic gift of slaanesh.


When I'm in power, here's how I'm gonna put the country back on its feet. I'm going to put sterilizing agents in the following products: Sunny Delight, Mountain Dew, and Thick-Crust Pizza. Only the 'tardiest of the 'tards like the thick crust. 
   
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San Jose, CA

and doom siren is not a piece of wargear, its a daemonic gift of slaanesh.

Demonic Gifts count against a model's wargear allotment.

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Regular Dakkanaut




iowa

Posted By Janthkin on 03/09/2006 3:38 PM
and doom siren is not a piece of wargear, its a daemonic gift of slaanesh.

Demonic Gifts count against a model's wargear allotment.


well if were just going to throw out random facts. heres mine "Guns don't kill people. Chuck Norris kills People."

anyway, i agree with you. but the siren is not a piece of wargear, its a gift.


When I'm in power, here's how I'm gonna put the country back on its feet. I'm going to put sterilizing agents in the following products: Sunny Delight, Mountain Dew, and Thick-Crust Pizza. Only the 'tardiest of the 'tards like the thick crust. 
   
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Regular Dakkanaut




Eye of Terror

Doom Siren is wargear. Noise Marines can take them as an upgrade to certain weapons.

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Lexington, KY

Posted By Janthkin on 03/09/2006 3:38 PM
and doom siren is not a piece of wargear, its a daemonic gift of slaanesh.

Demonic Gifts count against a model's wargear allotment.

Undistributed middle fallacy.

Daemonic Gifts are their own category in the Chaos Armory and have a rule (via the FAQ) that they count against the wargear allotment.  This does not make them wargear from a purely RAW perspective.

Stop trolling us so Lowinor and I can go back to beating each other's faces in. -pretre 
   
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Lexington, KY

Posted By BloodyT on 03/09/2006 4:29 PM
Doom Siren is wargear. Noise Marines can take them as an upgrade to certain weapons.

Please provide support for that assertion.

Stop trolling us so Lowinor and I can go back to beating each other's faces in. -pretre 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Eye of Terror

Look it up in the codex yourself. Good Lord!!! I am not a walking codex you sloggoth.

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Dakka Veteran




Lexington, KY

Posted By BloodyT on 03/09/2006 5:38 PM
Look it up in the codex yourself. Good Lord!!! I am not a walking codex you sloggoth.

Again with the ad hominems.  My codex says nothing of them being wargear.  They are listed under the category of "Gifts of Slaanesh" which falls under "Gifts of the Gods" which are noted as counting as "Daemonic Gifts".

Hence, the Doom Siren is a Daemonic Gift, it is not wargear.

As requested before, please provide proof of your assertion that Doom Sirens are wargear.

Stop trolling us so Lowinor and I can go back to beating each other's faces in. -pretre 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






San Jose, CA

Posted By Lowinor on 03/09/2006 5:30 PM
Posted By Janthkin on 03/09/2006 3:38 PM
and doom siren is not a piece of wargear, its a daemonic gift of slaanesh.

Demonic Gifts count against a model's wargear allotment.

Undistributed middle fallacy.

Daemonic Gifts are their own category in the Chaos Armory and have a rule (via the FAQ) that they count against the wargear allotment.  This does not make them wargear from a purely RAW perspective.


And I didn't say they were. It was merely a factual statement, if a bit of a non sequiter.

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Lexington, KY

Posted By Janthkin on 03/09/2006 6:12 PM
Posted By Lowinor on 03/09/2006 5:30 PM
posted="" by="" janthkin="" on="" 03/09/2006="" 3:38="" pm="">
And I didn't say they were. It was merely a factual statement, if a bit of a non sequiter.

My apologies, I took your post as a counter-argument to them not being wargear.

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Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




Again with the ad hominems. My codex says nothing of them being wargear. They are listed under the category of "Gifts of Slaanesh" which falls under "Gifts of the Gods" which are noted as counting as "Daemonic Gifts".

Hence, the Doom Siren is a Daemonic Gift, it is not wargear.

As requested before, please provide proof of your assertion that Doom Sirens are wargear.


They don't really have to be wargear. The fist rules do say to strike at I1 regardless of wargear, special rules, grenades, cover, etc. Whatever you count a Siren as, it certainly falls under special rules and 'etc', so the fist rules do say that the Siren doesn't affect the fist. The real question is whether or not they directly contradict. I don't think you can count one as more specific as the other - each one says to ignore whatever the other might do.

As blue loki pointed out, the fist only says that you must strike at I1. The Siren does not mention initiative, you just get to strike first. The theory he puts forward is:
The Fist adjusts the initiative at which the model strikes. The Siren ignores the initiative at which the model strikes. The two are very close to interferring with each other, but neither actually interacts with the other. The Doom Fist is still striking at I1, it just happens to be doing it before I10 gets to strike. Similarly, a Non-fist-toting model with the siren is still striking at I4, but it does so before I10.


By this theory, the two rules are not in direct conflict, or so they seem. I think there is a conflict, however, in that it violates the rule of initiative order. Now, in most cases where something is told to 'strike first', there is not a conflict. Banshees, for instance. The rule normally states that Banshees must strike at their Initiative. The Banshee Mask states that they go first. So, regardless of a Banshee's initiative, the more specific rule is their mask, which states that they go first. No conflict.

In the case of a fist, it is different. You are told by the Siren that you strike first. You are told by the fist that you must strike at I1. It doesn't say go last, it doesn't say that your Initiative becomes 1, it says you strike at I1. That's it. If it said that the model's Initiative became 1 for the purposes of close combat, there would be no conflict - the Siren would tell you to strike first regardless of Initiative. But that's not what it says - it says that you must strike at I1. So this is why I say the conflict is that you would break the rule of Initiative order - the Siren would require you to make your strike at a time other than Initiative 1, which expressly contradicts what the Fist rule is, which is that you must deliver your strikes at the Initiative 1 point of the phase.

In essence, I am saying that you can't go first at Initiative 1, unless you read it that a Siren Fist strikes at I1, but is resolved before other I1 attacks. The fist doesn't just tell you what to count your Initiative as, it expressly tells you when your strikes must occur, and the Siren expressly tells you something different. This produces a direct contradiction and conflict, which is only really resolvable by a d6 or by GW putting out a clear rule.
   
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Lexington, KY

In the case of a fist, it is different. You are told by the Siren that you strike first. You are told by the fist that you must strike at I1. It doesn't say go last, it doesn't say that your Initiative becomes 1, it says you strike at I1. That's it. If it said that the model's Initiative became 1 for the purposes of close combat, there would be no conflict - the Siren would tell you to strike first regardless of Initiative. But that's not what it says - it says that you must strike at I1.


This goes against the whole point of having special rules int he first place -- they change the basic rules.

So this is why I say the conflict is that you would break the rule of Initiative order - the Siren would require you to make your strike at a time other than Initiative 1, which expressly contradicts what the Fist rule is, which is that you must deliver your strikes at the Initiative 1 point of the phase.


And again, the fist gets overruled because the Doom Siren is a more specific rule.  It says regardless of weapon, and there is exactly one weapon special rule that changes striking order: Power Fist.


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Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




And again, the fist gets overruled because the Doom Siren is a more specific rule. It says regardless of weapon, and there is exactly one weapon special rule that changes striking order: Power Fist.


I do think that neither rule is more specific than the other. The Siren says regardless of weapon, the Fist says regardless of wargear, special rules, or anything else. Neither seems to me to be more specific.

This goes against the whole point of having special rules int he first place -- they change the basic rules.

Not in the case of a Power Fist they don't. You're expressly told that they don't.

   
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Widowmaker






Syracuse, NY

In essence, the powerfist wording says regardless of anything, you strike at initiative 1. Meanwhile the doom siren says regardless of Powerfist rules, you strike first.


   
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Master of the Hunt





Angmar

Right, and the circle of life begins anew...

Hence my first post back on page one:

But, as the rules currently stand, you will not find a conclusion to this debate which everyone can agree on.

Legality aside, I suggest you don't do it until the FAQs, or Codex, have been updated.

That's my last comment on the matter. Feel free to continue if you wish, but don't come crying to me when your face gets stuck in a perpetual state of Indigo.


"It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
It is by the seed of Arabica that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains, the stains become a warning.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion."
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Eye of Terror

"This goes against the whole point of having special rules int he first place -- they change the basic rules."

Can you show me specifically where this is stated in the rules? Pls remember we are like t0tally RAW here.

Thanks!

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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Eye of Terror

"This goes against the whole point of having special rules int he first place -- they change the basic rules."

Can you show me specifically where this is stated in the rules? Pls remember we are like t0tally RAW here.

Thanks!

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