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Joey wrote:

Kain wrote:

Joey wrote:

Kain wrote:

Joey wrote:They're completely out of place. I'd prefer more grimdark Warcraft 3 orcs.

I'd be inclined to point out a million reasons why this is a horrible idea, but part of me tells me that this is sarcastic.

Everything else is grimdark, orks for some reason are not. It's completely out of charector.
Warcraft 3 orks are more like Elder Scrolls orks; noble and violent.

The Orks have been that way for so long that trying to retcon them now would cause pretty much every ork player ever to quit playing until they changed it back. Unlike the necrons, the Ork fanbase has been deeply entrenched into the setting since rogue trader. And the orks are plenty grimdark, does the fact that the joker makes light of murder make him any less scary? The orks may talk funny and have weird tech, but that doesn't stop the fact that they can be absolutely terrifying. And the 40k orks should never, ever, ever be noble. Not in a million years.

I remember when orks were like this:





Maybe it's a generation thing.

At the same time there were miniatures like this http://www.solegends.com/citcat911/c2072orkmadboyz.htm
and this http://www.solegends.com/citcat911/c2073orkwierdboyz-m.htm

Space Orks has always had a comical side ( I especially love the bionic explosive cranium in the Rogue Trader days) Those commandos have Swiss army knives!

I just love the fact that they speak.in the same manner as my friends.

Harriticus wrote:
After having my heart ripped out with what GW did with the Necrons, really I don't want them to make any serious attempts to change the core fluff behind races anymore.

Agreed!

Diezel wrote:

Harriticus wrote:
After having my heart ripped out with what GW did with the Necrons, really I don't want them to make any serious attempts to change the core fluff behind races anymore.

Agreed!

Thirded, the drastic alterations to the Necrons was heavy handed retconning at it's worst.

I liked the changes in the Cons myself. I do not think they would ever do such with Orks, I myself would not mind them pulling some of the silly out a bit however,

Hunterindarkness wrote:I liked the changes in the Cons myself. I do not think they would ever do such with Orks, I myself would not mind them pulling some of the silly out a bit however,

The retconning was unnecessary. Rather than simply painting a broad brushstroke and erasing all the prior fluff established, they could have instead have the rebellion against the C'tan happen in the modern 40k timeline, so everybody's happy. They could even sell more models and books with the Necron civil war, C'tan loyalists against Szarekh's followers. But of course, as you've said before GW is notoriously crappy at things like this.

Something people seem to be missing here is that grimdark, itself, is humorous. To say that funny has no place in grimdark betrays a misunderstanding of grimdark.

Orks definitely have a place in a world of absurdist black humor.

Kain wrote:

Hunterindarkness wrote:I liked the changes in the Cons myself. I do not think they would ever do such with Orks, I myself would not mind them pulling some of the silly out a bit however,

The retconning was unnecessary. Rather than simply painting a broad brushstroke and erasing all the prior fluff established, they could have instead have the rebellion against the C'tan happen in the modern 40k timeline, so everybody's happy. They could even sell more models and books with the Necron civil war, C'tan loyalists against Szarekh's followers. But of course, as you've said before GW is notoriously crappy at things like this.

The problem is they made it shown that the Necrons were essentially slaves at the point, and the only time they were given personalities were when it hit it up to the Retcon.

As it was, the C'tan before had a hand in EVERYTHING. To the point that it was one of the worst fluff cases of mary sue till Draigo ascended and everyone focused on the new matt ward stuff.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Kain wrote:

Hunterindarkness wrote:I liked the changes in the Cons myself. I do not think they would ever do such with Orks, I myself would not mind them pulling some of the silly out a bit however,

The retconning was unnecessary. Rather than simply painting a broad brushstroke and erasing all the prior fluff established, they could have instead have the rebellion against the C'tan happen in the modern 40k timeline, so everybody's happy. They could even sell more models and books with the Necron civil war, C'tan loyalists against Szarekh's followers. But of course, as you've said before GW is notoriously crappy at things like this.

The problem is they made it shown that the Necrons were essentially slaves at the point, and the only time they were given personalities were when it hit it up to the Retcon.

As it was, the C'tan before had a hand in EVERYTHING. To the point that it was one of the worst fluff cases of mary sue till Draigo ascended and everyone focused on the new matt ward stuff.

The Necron Lords and Pariahs were canonically shown to have free will of their own in works like the word bearer's novels, dawn of war, xenology and so on. So the rebellion could still have happened. And the Eldar have had a hand in everything since before the Necrons, you don't see many people crying B.S on them. Oh and every single, solitary bad thing about the current state of the Imperium is Lorgar's fault, unintentionally so yes, but still, his fault and *solely* his fault, which is a tad ridiculous for an entire empire of millions of worlds, but one man still screwed everything up.

Kain wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Kain wrote:

Hunterindarkness wrote:I liked the changes in the Cons myself. I do not think they would ever do such with Orks, I myself would not mind them pulling some of the silly out a bit however,

The retconning was unnecessary. Rather than simply painting a broad brushstroke and erasing all the prior fluff established, they could have instead have the rebellion against the C'tan happen in the modern 40k timeline, so everybody's happy. They could even sell more models and books with the Necron civil war, C'tan loyalists against Szarekh's followers. But of course, as you've said before GW is notoriously crappy at things like this.

The problem is they made it shown that the Necrons were essentially slaves at the point, and the only time they were given personalities were when it hit it up to the Retcon.

As it was, the C'tan before had a hand in EVERYTHING. To the point that it was one of the worst fluff cases of mary sue till Draigo ascended and everyone focused on the new matt ward stuff.

The Necron Lords and Pariahs were canonically shown to have free will of their own in works like the word bearer's novels, dawn of war, xenology and so on. So the rebellion could still have happened. And the Eldar have had a hand in everything since before the Necrons, you don't see many people crying B.S on them.

Yes but the Eldar are dying out and half the time they fail their works and their stuff failed anyways even when they planned it through at times. The c'tan was behind everything, from blanks, to Abbadons attacks (And his daemonblade!) not to mention they were a rising power without end compared to everyone else. They were essentially tyranids + Tzeentch combined together into blandness

Dawn of war's portrayal was Un-canonical at the time as was often complained about (The necron lord in Dark crusade was the best, as he acted without speaking, the pariah, and the..mess that was soulstorm is to be forgotten)

And the word bearer novels..Never honestly read those.

Kain wrote:

Hunterindarkness wrote:I liked the changes in the Cons myself. I do not think they would ever do such with Orks, I myself would not mind them pulling some of the silly out a bit however,

The retconning was unnecessary. Rather than simply painting a broad brushstroke and erasing all the prior fluff established, they could have instead have the rebellion against the C'tan happen in the modern 40k timeline, so everybody's happy. They could even sell more models and books with the Necron civil war, C'tan loyalists against Szarekh's followers. But of course, as you've said before GW is notoriously crappy at things like this.

I am gonna flat disagree. A current war would have been both silly, easily put down and killed everything else. They painted themselves into a spot with the old Necron fluff and it had to change. But yeah while I like 40k, I think GW is an embarrassment and 40k lives despite their best efforts to kill it.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Kain wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Kain wrote:

Hunterindarkness wrote:I liked the changes in the Cons myself. I do not think they would ever do such with Orks, I myself would not mind them pulling some of the silly out a bit however,

The retconning was unnecessary. Rather than simply painting a broad brushstroke and erasing all the prior fluff established, they could have instead have the rebellion against the C'tan happen in the modern 40k timeline, so everybody's happy. They could even sell more models and books with the Necron civil war, C'tan loyalists against Szarekh's followers. But of course, as you've said before GW is notoriously crappy at things like this.

The problem is they made it shown that the Necrons were essentially slaves at the point, and the only time they were given personalities were when it hit it up to the Retcon.

As it was, the C'tan before had a hand in EVERYTHING. To the point that it was one of the worst fluff cases of mary sue till Draigo ascended and everyone focused on the new matt ward stuff.

The Necron Lords and Pariahs were canonically shown to have free will of their own in works like the word bearer's novels, dawn of war, xenology and so on. So the rebellion could still have happened. And the Eldar have had a hand in everything since before the Necrons, you don't see many people crying B.S on them.

Yes but the Eldar are dying out and half the time they fail their works and their stuff failed anyways even when they planned it through at times. The c'tan was behind everything, from blanks, to Abbadons attacks (And his daemonblade!) not to mention they were a rising power without end compared to everyone else. They were essentially tyranids + Tzeentch combined together into blandness

Dawn of war's portrayal was Un-canonical at the time as was often complained about (The necron lord in Dark crusade was the best, as he acted without speaking, the pariah, and the..mess that was soulstorm is to be forgotten)

And the word bearer novels..Never honestly read those.

Thomas MacAbee seems to have been rather well liked from what I gather. People disliking him is news to me. And the Eldar caused Armageddon (two concurrent wars for it), they're makings sure the Octarius war remains in eternal deadlock by crippling either side when it gains an advantage, they caused Aurelia to become a complete and utter clusterfeth of such proportions that ten years later even the Imperium said "screw it, nuke 'em all."

The word bearer's novels and xenology are very good books and I recommend them highly. Reynold's work goes down rather faster than Abnett's or Stewart/Mitchell's. As for a current war killing everyone, most of the necrons would still be sleeping, so the war would be low scale and would remain low scale until the day Shub-niggurath awakens from her black lair and swallows the sun because it would take that long for GW to move the plot forward.

Kain wrote:

Joey wrote:It's worth noting that a lot of players are immediately put off by the silliness of the orks. I would literally never even consider playing an ork army. The notion of an entire battleforce acting like 12 year old boys is just irritating.

And some people refuse to even consider marines (chaos and loyalist) of any sort because they find them as a whole to be irritatingly boring, bland, and overexposed. Every army has it's haters.

I agree that every army has its haters, but Orks aren't too silly.

Orks have humor because that's how their society works. They require battle to survive. They are the most resilient race in game (Yes, More than Necrons!). They have a universally effective kultur, political system, and mindset.

Marines? Boring.

Ailaros wrote:Something people seem to be missing here is that grimdark, itself, is humorous. To say that funny has no place in grimdark betrays a misunderstanding of grimdark.

Orks definitely have a place in a world of absurdist black humor.

The problem is there are people who take grimdark 100% seriously. I've heard of people who won't play an army just because a guy had a funny conversion in it, or even refusing people who joke about things going on in the game (hah, my tank immobilised itself on a rock, that must have been the dude that failed the driving test) I know I've seen people on here who will get angry at the mere mention of orks shenanigans, and that they exist in the stores as well. Some have justified reasons, some just need grimdark 24/7 or else they shrivel up and die I don't meet many of the latter type though so it's not a big deal for me, but I'm sure there are some stores that have more and make it an issue

Also, I dont intend for this to become a bashing thread against people who want serious orks. I just wanted to hear why they want them more serious. For example, joey stated that he hates them because they dont "fit" the universe. He does have a legit reason, even if I think its a bit extreme to refuse to play them ever, but hey, its his choice. I think they're an important comic relief to help break up the monotony, but once again, that's my choice.

Like I said earlier, i love the more random aspects of the orks, and when I get around to building up my ork army, it will reflect that.

The Orks are fine the way they are, it's all about perspective. They have a goofy madboyz, but they have the dead 'ard storm boyz, so they have both aspects of the argument.
Orks love fighting, and see it as their purpose in life, so of course they would be happy, they have no reason to be sad, unless there is just one Ork all by his lonesome...

I really like the duality of the Orcs they are silly and fun from an Orc perspective but from any other perspective they are vicious psychopaths. The comedy value of Orcs makes me tempted to collect them.

Want serious orks? Play some Goff orks, they are like the black orcs of fantasy. All serious and angry.

You know my previous comment about Shub Niggurath and the sun? Scratch that, Shub Niggurath would devour the sun way, way before GW moves the plot to any meaningful degree.

I agree with and believe that the wackiness of the Orks is a necessity for the wh40k universe and so are the not so grimdark Tau. It gives the universe a much needed light spot.
Without them we all might as well just paint everything emo. Personally if I couldn't read something bright about the wh40k
Universe at times then I would probably abandon the game all together. I need a little hope in my hobbies.

Joey wrote:It's worth noting that a lot of players are immediately put off by the silliness of the orks. I would literally never even consider playing an ork army. The notion of an entire battleforce acting like 12 year old boys is just irritating.

Where as I consider refusing to play an army for silly fluff to be acting like a 12 year old.

I like the zany, wacky, orks. But I don't like it when the player running them can't focus or play the game because they're so busy being in character. And I also agree that in BL stuff, I prefer the darker orks.

If orks turned into angry, beast-like mindless killers that just raved through systems in unstoppable anger, and all they did was grunt and kill, kill and grunt, and then grunt and kill some more, i would stop playing them. Or i would stick entirely to playing games with friends, and play with the older codex and treat it like it never happened. I love my zany orks, that was the entire reason i picked them as my first army. Even if they did a fluff swap, but left, say, the freebooters as the crazy orks of old to appease the old players like they did with necrons, i would be really really REALLY mad.

You find me a person who dislikes wacky Orks and I'll bet you've also found me a person who has never read Deff Skwadron.

That graphic Novel totally sums up why Orks are awesome the way there are, and 40K would be worse for it, if they where not.

Orks have evolved to their current status over 25 years of the 40k game's history.

Are they silly? Humorous? To the reader, yes, to anyone encountering them face to face, no. They murder entire worlds in fury-fueled holy wars, they enslave and brutalize what they can find use for, ripping apart anything else. They are childish, yes, like a 7 year old pulling the wings off a fly or turning a spyglass on an ant's nest. They are relentless killing machines, turning mountains of scrap into horrific engines of war. They can meet a hive fleet head on and drag it to a stalemate, the violence making them grow larger and more capable of killing.

It's a race of 'near-Hulks', purely built for combat and lacking the weaknesses that have hampered the eldar, humans or even (now) necrons... If any race will stamp out the tyranids or break the back of chaos, it's the orks.

Don't like their humour, don't like the gestalt field think that justifies piece of scrap working like new and I don't like their grammar rules, its annoying as hell.

I'd prefer them to be much less silly. But not totally.

Deff Skwadron? Dems da best flya boyz

I believe DoW2 nailed it on how to portray the Orks, they are taken as a legitimate and serious threat, they are a tad more beast-like, but they will pull off the occasional Orky humor when the situation fits it.

I like the way Orks are.

There is no slaughter without a laughter. You can't get anymore grimdark than slaughtering entire civilizations for your own amusement.

Personally, the the silly thing were to drop, I'd drop 40k. The current ork codexes silliness was the single thing to convince me to start the game at all.

Strangely enough I started off fairly hard core and serious and picked GK as my first army then moved onto IG as I enjoyed more of a militaristic feel.

As time wore on and I'm tired of painting tanks/straight lines/boxes/power armor in general....

I started Daemons! The fun and wacky, daemons didn't do well but they were definatly way more fun and expressive in their poses/expressions/wargear/coloring. I still enjoy the total random freedom I can get as a modeler. It really gets my juices going as it were. Frankly, they can still be competitive actually suprised me as I've done quite well with them in matches. I had expected to lose just about every time to be honest and it didn't bother me one bit.

Now I'm starting orks

Along the same line as being able to model things in a very wacky/zany crazy way and have the fluff being able to back it up (I actually like the geshalt or w/e psy field thing) to explain how the rocket launcher bit I just glued to the front of the big shoota makes total sense.

Orks have alot of character in their models. The kommandos are some of my favorite models. The smoking one with a cigar in his mouth and a gretchen comming out of his backpack is also my wife's most favorite model outside of the chaos lord from fantasy. She's a big wow player so she tends to like her orcs slightly more serious but she tells me that the silly orks behave more like her actual guildmates so it kind of fits in a strange fluff / fantasy vs alternate fantasy vs real world kind of irony.

Orks have their place in 40k. I think they've been the only consistent force throughout its history. I love them, despite not being terribly inclined towards collecting them.

Travellin' through space is boring. Well, boring unless da hulk yer on is full of dem gene-sneakers, or a base fer da chaos lads wiv da spikes, or already has Boyz on it. Or if humie lootas come callin', that's always good fer a bit a sport. Or unless yer have a mutiny or two to pass da time, or unless strange fings start happenin', which dey usually do when yer out in da warp. One time we had some bloody great ugly fing come straight out of Weird Lugwort's 'ed! It butchered half da lads, that was pretty entertainin'. Come ter fink of it, space is a pretty good larf. And that's before yer find yerself a nice world ta crush!