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Blood Lord Soldado wrote:Flat out is not a declared move. It is a distance covered. (BRB. 70)

Yet you are not allowed to disembark if you are going to move flat-out. Which means, if you attempt to move flat-out from difficult terrain, and fail the dangerous terrain test, you still suffer all the effects of having moved flat-out.

Not according to Red Paint Job. You count as moving 12".

"Ork Vehicles with red paint jobs add +1 to the move in the Movement phase but do not incur penalties for this extra inch."

So you go 13", which qualifies you for flat out bonuses, but only count as going 12 for determining penalties to movement. The only penalty to moving combat speed is not being able to shoot your guns, which is overridden by Arial Assault.

This seems pretty clear.

I think it falls into the category where specific over rules general; as RPJ specifically allows you to break movement rules.

I know I keep mentioning Arial Assault, but that specific special rule allows you to break the rule in the BRB, why is it hard to accept that Red Paint Job also lets you break the rules?

Blood Lord Soldado wrote:Not according to Red Paint Job. You count as moving 12".

"Ork Vehicles with red paint jobs add +1 to the move in the Movement phase but do not incur penalties for this extra inch."

So you go 13", which qualifies you for flat out bonuses, but only count as going 12 for determining penalties to movement. The only penalty to moving combat speed is not being able to shoot your guns, which is overridden by Arial Assault.

This seems pretty clear.

I think it falls into the category where specific over rules general; as RPJ specifically allows you to break movement rules.

I know I keep mentioning Arial Assault, but that specific special rule allows you to break the rule in the BRB, why is it hard to accept that Red Paint Job also lets you break the rules?

We dont have a problem understanding it lets us break rules, the problem is we dont know which rules we're alowed to break

What do tournaments usually rule on this? I know they arent official gw, but seeing a trend in the tourneys would help seeing what the majority interprets it as.

The other thing is that some of the things this upgrade supposedly lets you do seem way too powerful for a mere 5pts upgrade.

Then throw in the fact that GW has apparently never bothered to clear it up, and I have a feeling we'll be arguing over this for a while

How much of the jet needs to be painted red to qualify for an RPJ? What is the generally accepted standard? If you can move 13", shoot and claim the cover save the RPJ will be a mandatory upgrade even for us Bad Moons!

krumpinkiwi wrote:How much of the jet needs to be painted red to qualify for an RPJ? What is the generally accepted standard? If you can move 13", shoot and claim the cover save the RPJ will be a mandatory upgrade even for us Bad Moons!

None.

You can have the RPJ represented any way you like.

If your orks are colorblind, and have a Purple Paint Job, because to them it looks like red and makes them faster.

Or if your orks were taught that Blue was Red then they have a Blue Paint job that they believe is red and makes them faster.

Basically you paint your models how you want them to look.

So you say RAW now lets you move 37" and fire everything?!! Are you freaking serious???? I am sure you all are just a joy to play against.... lucky for me you don't live in my neck of the woods.

General_Chaos wrote:So you say RAW now lets you move 37" and fire everything?!! Are you freaking serious???? I am sure you all are just a joy to play against.... lucky for me you don't live in my neck of the woods.

No that's supersonic, it's basically turboboosting on steroids. you wont be able to shoot if you move that far.

We're talkinga bout moving 12-13" and whether you'd still be able to fire all the weapons and still get a +4 save for moving "flat out"

General_Chaos wrote:So you say RAW now lets you move 37" and fire everything?!! Are you freaking serious???? I am sure you all are just a joy to play against.... lucky for me you don't live in my neck of the woods.

It'd be great if you'd read the thread and respond to an actual point, and not make up one to argue against.

No one has said that moving 37" and firing works. Nice try.

Daemonhammer wrote:The save is granted by the speed group not by actual distance traveled

Which is irrelevant, as a fast vehicle moving 13" is always moving flat-out, no matter its color. You just get to ignore penalties for doing so by counting as cruising speed if it was painted red.

MrMoustaffa - it breaks no rules, as you have permission to ignore the penalty for moving flat out, right there in the RPJ rules.

The RPJ rules also say that if you move 13" you count as moving 12".
So if it counts as 12" then it's not Flat Out.
I'm still reading going Flat Out as the penalty that you get to ignore.
Hitting in close combat requires actual distance moved (the whole cruising at 7", hitting on 6's), but the Flat Out save requires the speed group.

You ignore the penalties, not the bonuses. As I pointed out.

A BONUS of moving 13" is you get a cover save

A PENALTY of moving 13" is you dont get to shoot

RPJ ignores the latter, not the former.

juraigamer wrote:Unless FAQ'ed, yes you can.

No you can't red paint job says you move 13 but count as moving 12.

grendel083 wrote:The RPJ rules also say that if you move 13" you count as moving 12".
So if it counts as 12" then it's not Flat Out.
I'm still reading going Flat Out as the penalty that you get to ignore.
Hitting in close combat requires actual distance moved (the whole cruising at 7", hitting on 6's), but the Flat Out save requires the speed group.

Agree with this. "Counts as" needs to apply to all effects. If you move 13 and that counts as 12 for shooting, it also counts as 12 removing you from the flat out benefit.

So the only benefit is 1 extra inch?

Crablezworth wrote:So the only benefit is 1 extra inch?

For 5pts? Sounds about right.

Food for thought........

How relevant is the word "could" in the rules for RPJ?

cgage00 wrote:

juraigamer wrote:Unless FAQ'ed, yes you can.

No you can't red paint job says you move 13 but count as moving 12.

Doesn't that refer to the "penalties" of the extra distance?

The codex specifies, directly before that sentence, that RPJ does not allow you to incur penalties for this inch. If that is true than, if you move 13 You AREN'T allowed to be considered NOT moving flat out but are forced to ignore any "penalties" of moving flat out. No where does it say you can ignore anything except the "penalties".

So according to the BRB, flat out means that the vehicle is treated in all respects exactly the same as a non fast vehicle moving at cruising speeds, but, to my understanding, with the "penalty" of not being able to fire its guns. Also skimmers which move flat out the previous turn count as obscured.

The rules for Aerial Assault allow model moving at cruising speeds to fire all of its weapons.

If you add that all together you get, from the BRB, the model moves more than 12" but is not allowed for fire its weapons, where RPJ in both the ork codex and white dwarf forces you to ignore this "penalty" if you only moved 13", and count in all regards as moving cruising speed, where Aerial Assault allows you to fire all weapons at such speed.

So you can move 13" fire all weapons and receive a 4+ cover save, I think?
It kind of boils down to what are the "penalties" of flat out.
Can anyone else confirm this?

grendel083 wrote:The RPJ rules also say that if you move 13" you count as moving 12".
So if it counts as 12" then it's not Flat Out.
I'm still reading going Flat Out as the penalty that you get to ignore.
Hitting in close combat requires actual distance moved (the whole cruising at 7", hitting on 6's), but the Flat Out save requires the speed group.

cgage00 wrote:

juraigamer wrote:Unless FAQ'ed, yes you can.

No you can't red paint job says you move 13 but count as moving 12.

That's not what the rules say. You can count as 12". You don't have to, neither are you allowed to count as moving 12" for something that's not a penalty. Moving flat out is not a penalty.

cgage00 wrote:

juraigamer wrote:Unless FAQ'ed, yes you can.

Yes you can red paint job says you move 13 but count as moving 12 for the purposes of any penalties.

Fixed that for you.

Please actually read the RPJ rule, or the other argumetns in this thread, before making declarative statements that are wrong. You ONLY ignore the penalties of moving that extra inch, and 4+ cover save is not a penalty.

For the 10th time this thread.

I think it boils down to the last 6 words of the rules for RPJ in the white dwarf, "and still count as moving 12"." For game purposes you count as moving 12 inches, even though you moved 13. Since you counted as moving 12 inches you are moving at cruising speed. You are not counted as moving flat-out.

Hopefully this is the post that will end this whole arguement, but knowing human nature.

The meat of the RPJ rule is this "Ork vehicles with red paint job add +1 to their move in the Movement phase but do not incur penalties for this extra inch. For example, a vehicle could move 13" and count as moving 12".

The people who're saying it doesn't get the save are quoting the "For example" bit. It's meant as an example for the actual rule above which almost nobody can doubt allows the save.
It's just been badly worded, it's not the rule it's an example.

The "but do no yot incur penalties for this extra inch" portion is the part that quite plainly shows that you don't get the bad side effects but get the good ones. Hence the do not...
Now lets look at why they might intend this, imagine a Ork trukker army 6+ trucks. That's 30P on RPJ to gain this 4+ SV, less than the KFF and controls more area. The KFF costs 50P 20P more than the RPJ but the KFF is still useful still because you're not always going to want to move 13" and it protects the boyz from fire, which is what it was used for again in the earlier additions.

All I'm trying to say is it makes more sense that it's ruled this way. 5P for and extra inch is just a waste, that's a Big shoota. Now suddenly if it's giving a 4+SV it's the must buy.

Now just for fun I will examine the example. "For example, a vehicle could move 13" and still count as moving 12"
Now this is intresting, in collaboration with the meat of the rules this makes perfect sense that they're talking about the SV.
If this was just the rule then it's obviously the other side.

To summarise the below bit is a example not a rule and I think that you gain the SV.

whembly wrote:So, I picked up the new WD today to review the new flyers models rules.

One quick question...

Say I have a DakkaJet with Red Paint Job (RPJ)....

Could I move 13", then fire everything AND recieve a 4+ skimmer coversave? Isn't that ?

Given some of the utter stupidity that exists in the GK, SW and Necron codexes I see no issue with this...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

krumpinkiwi wrote:How much of the jet needs to be painted red to qualify for an RPJ? What is the generally accepted standard? If you can move 13", shoot and claim the cover save the RPJ will be a mandatory upgrade even for us Bad Moons!

None.

In a game meta in which people regularly paint up marines in various random ways and yet count them as GK or BA or whatever flavor of cheese they want to play that given day Why would this upgrade need to be presented exactly as listed in fluff/description?

The increased speed could just as easily be represented by adding extra "boostas/jets" or "fuel squigs" on the model, modelling a fancy "fighta ace" pilot whose skill allows him to squeeze every last ounce of speed out of his plane, etc., etc. As long as you make it clear to your opponent and allow him to see you have noted and payed for it in your list then actually painting it red is a non-issue as far as I'm concerned...

I Varon - trukks do not get a cover save for moving flat out, as they are not skimmers. Reread the cover save rules for vehicles moving fast.....

I thought they did when they went flat out. Either way the main part of the point is still valid

No, only skimmers. 100% certain on this. It's why the argument about RPJ and speed has not come up before, as orks didnt get fast skimmers until now

Ailideon wrote:I think it boils down to the last 6 words of the rules for RPJ in the white dwarf, "and still count as moving 12"." For game purposes you count as moving 12 inches, even though you moved 13. Since you counted as moving 12 inches you are moving at cruising speed. You are not counted as moving flat-out.

Conveniently quoting less than half the rule, while leaving out "could" and "for example" does not make for a strong argument. Furthermore, if you have to leave out three thirds of a rule to make it fit your argument, you have done nothing but proven yourself wrong.

Jidmah wrote:

Ailideon wrote:I think it boils down to the last 6 words of the rules for RPJ in the white dwarf, "and still count as moving 12"." For game purposes you count as moving 12 inches, even though you moved 13. Since you counted as moving 12 inches you are moving at cruising speed. You are not counted as moving flat-out.

Conveniently quoting less than half the rule, while leaving out "could" and "for example" does not make for a strong argument. Furthermore, if you have to leave out three thirds of a rule to make it fit your argument, you have done nothing but proven yourself wrong.

I would think that we should end it just here.

The verdict being the save is given, but then again it would be intresting to see how TO rule this.

I think it boils down to the perception of how declared speeds affect the movement.

Does the player move the vehicle, then state how far it went, thus allocating a declared speed? "It moved 8", so it went at cruising speed".

Or does the player declare movement speed, and move the vehicle within the limits of the declared speed?

If the former, I would lean towards the vehicle being able to shoot, and still getting the save.

It would mean though that one could move a vehicle 0.1", declare that it moved flat out (in a circle), and it would benefit for being able to fire all it's weapons AND getting a 4+ cover save.

Kharrak wrote:Does the player move the vehicle, then state how far it went, thus allocating a declared speed? "It moved 8", so it went at cruising speed".

This is exactly what the rules say, no further discussion needed. I have quoted them in this very thread.