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You mean this question?

Space Wolves FAQ wrote:
Q. Does Jaws of the World Wolf allow the Rune Priest
to target specific models within squads? (p37)
A. Yes.

-666- wrote:You cant snipe with it.

Yes you can, see the above faq quote. The target ie "the first unit hit by jotww" cannot be in CC but the rest of the models hit can be. Any weapon that allows you to scatter, fire without picking a target etc can hit unit's in CC but they can also hit your own models. JOTWW doesn't affect space wolves though.

-666- wrote:You cant snipe with it.

You cited the FAQ, and you're wrong about that... and you have nothing to back up your "Not legal" statement...

Or am I missing something?

It is a psychic shooting attack - to snipe the FAQ would have to state you could do it.

Which it does, you are allowed to target specific models in the unit.

I disagree with you. If your opponents are silly enough to let you pull that kind of cr@p then I suppose they deserve it.

Shooting cannot target models in assault but no you can target models in assault... right.

Outta here.

There seems to be some confusion here. You are using the word "snipe" to mean "hit models in cc". I use the word "snipe" to mean "target a specific model".

You are right that you cannot target units in cc, but they can still be hit; either by a scattered blast, or a line "template" attack, such as JotWW or the Eldar Vibro Cannon. The difference between, JotWW and the Vibro Cannon, is that JotWW must hit a unit not locked in cc first (as this is the target unit).

-666- wrote:You cant snipe with it.

What do you mean by "snipe"?
Normally, snipe means to take out specific models within squad. This is explicitly allowed to JoTWW.

To reiterate:
First model hit by JotWW is considered target of the power. All normal rules applying to choosing target for shooting apply.
This means:
1) First unit hit by JotWW cannot be in CC.
2) Any other units hit be JotWW can be in CC.

-666- wrote:You cant snipe with it.

Actually you can snipe with it, just not models in close combat unless you are in position that the first model to be affected by the power is not in close combat. As the rule says, any other models are just hit as the line goes through which would incluse models in close combat.

Actually you can snipe with it, just not models in close combat unless you are in position that the first model to be affected by the power is not in close combat. As the rule says, any other models are just hit as the line goes through which would incluse models in close combat.

I'm agreeing with this fully.

I was so addled by how Jaws worked I typed up a blog post about it. With pictures to try to make things clearer. I'm still chopping and changing things about it since I first posted it: I'm wondering if you can fire it at a vehicle squad to hit a character behind it for example. Linky here. To be honest, I'm probably going to wait for 6th to drop before I update it again though hopefully it helps.

@Stormy: of course you can target a vehicle for it to hit someone behind it. Just like you can shoot your plasma cannon at that Land Raider, not that it does anything but hey it might scatter to the guy standing behind it.

Not true, as the "target" for Jaws is the first unit it hits, and it does not hit vehicles.

@Happyjew: I thought you can target a psychic shooting attack at any model that is not in CC unless there is a rule forbidding you to do so. Just like you can target your bolter at the Rhino.

Normally, yes, however, Jaws has a different mechanic, and the FAQ specifies that the target is the first unit that is hit.

I have just re-read the wording of Jaws, it doesn't have a restriction on the unit it targets (you need line of sight, night fighting rule and all that) but not on the unit type. It has the restrictions on which units it affects. Perhaps I am missing something.

Can you not target a unit of which the power doesn't affect?

e.g. you can Fear of Darkness a Fearless unit, not that it does anything.

From the FAQ:

The Rune Priest must have line of sight to the first model that the power affects – in effect he is treated as the target model.

(important part in bold)

Mannahnin wrote:The SW FAQ defines that the first model crossed by the line is Jaws' target.

This is what I was talking about, of course it doesn't help that I think SW are far more broken than GK, but whatever.

And you can snipe with it, as it causes the models of which the line pass over to take the test. You can choose what models you want to try to kill.

@Happyjew: I must be missing something really big. I agree with all the answer so far regarding targeting a model in CC can be done if the first target is a valid target.

Here is my logic: My rune priest put down the line template. My Rune priest is now targeting the Rhino (closest with respect to the template). Anything (non-vehicle, non-jump-infantry) in that template take an initiative test regardless of whether enemy or friendly, in CC or not in CC. Then my squad shoot all the assault weapons at the Rhino and then assault it afterward.

Is this illegal in some way?

A Rhino can shoot a storm bolter at another Rhino even if it doesn't do anything (otherwise, how can you even use searchlight).

leohart wrote:@Happyjew: I must be missing something really big. I agree with all the answer so far regarding targeting a model in CC can be done if the first target is a valid target.

Here is my logic: My rune priest put down the line template. My Rune priest is now targeting the Rhino (closest with respect to the template). Anything (non-vehicle, non-jump-infantry) in that template take an initiative test regardless of whether enemy or friendly, in CC or not in CC. Then my squad shoot all the assault weapons at the Rhino and then assault it afterward.

Is this illegal in some way?

A Rhino can shoot a storm bolter at another Rhino even if it doesn't do anything (otherwise, how can you even use searchlight).

The FAQ shows that the first model affected is the target. The Rhino cannot be affected therefore cannot be the target.

Then how would you use searchlight from a Rhino?

The storm bolter on a Rhino cannot affect another Rhino from the front facing, so it cannot target. Cannot target, cannot searchlight.

Incorrect

Jaws has a *requirement* that the first model AFFECTED is the target. A rhino cannot be affected so CANNOT be the target

In GENERAL shooting has no restrictions on what you can target, regardless of your ability to hurt the target.

The target is the first model affected, not the first model hit. If it can't be affected, it can't be the target.

Edit: Too slow, Ninja'd

leohart wrote:Then how would you use searchlight from a Rhino?

The storm bolter on a Rhino cannot affect another Rhino from the front facing, so it cannot target. Cannot target, cannot searchlight.

As was said, Jaws has a specific statement about how to determine a target.
A Rhino shooting just declares a target.

See the difference?

Getting back to the original question of the thread:

Can JotWW's 'line' be drawn over models locked in combat if the first model crossed by the line is not locked in combat?

The answer is absolutely not.

The rules explicitly prohibit shooting into close combat, not just targeting units in close combat (pg 40). This is why, for example, you are not allowed to place a flamer template over models in close combat even if the target enemy unit itself is not locked in combat.

So therefore when choosing where to draw the line for JotWW it is not allowed to cross over any models locked in combat.

yakface wrote:
Getting back to the original question of the thread:
Can JotWW's 'line' be drawn over models locked in combat if the first model crossed by the line is not locked in combat?
The answer is absolutely not.

I disagree.

yakface wrote:
The rules explicitly prohibit shooting into close combat, not just targeting units in close combat (pg 40). This is why, for example, you are not allowed to place a flamer template over models in close combat even if the target enemy unit itself is not locked in combat.
So therefore when choosing where to draw the line for JotWW it is not allowed to cross over any models locked in combat.

Actually, rules don't prohibit shooting into close combat. They prohibit you from 1) targeting units in close combat and 2) placing template so that it covers models in close combat.
Major distinction.
Rules also prohibit targeting friendly units and placing templates so that they hit friendly models. But I haven't seen anyone argue that you couldn't place JotWW 'line' so that it hit friendlies.

But this doesn't matter, because JotWW is not a template. Restrictions for it are quite clear in FAQ and they only apply to the target model.
"The Rune Priest must have line of sight to the first model that the power affects – in effect he is treated as the target model; the power just happens to hit everybody else on its way through!"

So can JotWW's 'line' be drawn over models locked in combat if the first model crossed by the line is not locked in combat? Answer is yes.

Guys, check out p.40 - Shooting Into and Out of Close Combat. It is a blanket statement about shooting into assault. No mention of targeting.

Yakface is right.

yakface wrote:
So therefore when choosing where to draw the line for JotWW it is not allowed to cross over any models locked in combat.

Citation needed.

I've read page 40 and it seems clear that you can't directly shoot cc. It reads very like fluff so going back to the section in the shooting phase, we are back to no targetting cc.

Now here is a question:

I have a flamer in my GH squad, there are two ranks of IG from 2 different squads within 2 inches of one another and only 4" from the flamer. The second squad are in cc. The GH shoot at the first squad and the flamer is placed, the template covers some of the 2nd squad and the unit they are in cc with. The wounds are rolled on all the units hit and wounds are resolved.
Is this allowed?

If the above is allowed why is jotww not cool doing the same.

You may never, ever place a blast or template so that it covers any part of a model locked in close combat. Both template and blast rules explicitly mention this. If you can not place a template without hitting a unit in CC, that model may not fire its template weapon.

AFAIK there are 4 "weapons" that use the line "template"

1) Eldar Vibro Cannon: FAQ'd to allow hitting models in cc.
2) Blood Lance (PSA): Specifically says it ignores models in cc.
3) JotWW (PSA): Does not specify one way or the other.
4) Necron Death Ray: Again does not specify one way or the other.

So my question, is can the Death Ray line be placed to hit models locked in cc as well?

While the rule is pretty fluffy, it basically says that deliberately shooting into close combat is not permitted, no exceptions. You can accidentally shoot your models though. (BRB pg. 40).

The targeting rules prevent you from targeting any model in close combat (BRB pg. 16).

In addition:

Q. Does Veil of Tears work against weapons that do not
pick a specific target. For example, if a vibro cannon is
fired so that its line goes through a unit of Harlequins,
do you hit them even if they are out of your spotting
distance? (p48)
A. Yes, the Harlequins are not targeted specifically, so
the Veil of Tears has no effect.
-> Vibro cannons do not pick a target

Q. Does Jaws of the World Wolf allow the Rune Priest
to target specific models within squads? (p37)
A. Yes.
-> JotWW needs to pick a target

Sooo:
1) Yep. It also doesn't seem to target anything at all. Kills friend and foe alike.
2) Really the best defined one of them all, nothing to argue(anymore). Note that it doesn't kill allies either.
3) Considering that JotWW will also kill friendly models if hit, I'd say out of consistency, you can kill models in close combat, too. Targeting limitations disallow the first model being in combat (or friendly) though.
4) Just like the vibro cannon, you do not pick any targets, but points on the board, as well as hitting friend or foe. I see no reason to not simply apply all vibro cannon rules to the death ray, as they are both vehicle-base weapons with the only difference being the direction of the ray.

So the only one really up in the air are secondary hits by JotWW, as if GW like having loop holes for that particular PSA.