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CorvidMP wrote:

biccat wrote:
Your army will still (likely) be valid for the next 5-10 years, it just may not be as competitive as you would like.

Tell this to my mechanized tau (haven't functioned properly for an entire edition), and my bud's blood ravens who used to take advantage of the old true grit special rule that let them rock a bolter and chainsword (now half the entire lovingly converted army is illegal), or my other buds inquisitorial storm trooper army (don't even exist anymore).

I'll update my tau a bit with the new dex whenever the hell that comes out, I still love em they were my first army. But the fact that they and my Black Templars haven't even been updates in six years, an entire damn edition, is really unacceptable, and I've moved onto to games where I can count on my investment in a force receiving continuing support.

Could I continue to play my old armies with the old editions rules they were actually designed to function under? Sure I could, but it'll be damn hard to a get a game like that in my FLGS.

See, this is what drives me absolutely nuts about GW.

I think this was the biggest shock I experienced when I started this hobby (and I did with GW products). I couldn't understand how people would put up with spending money on these expensive models only to be told by the company "Sorry we dont support that model/army list anymore".

When I would listen to guys who were playing a while, many of them had no sympathy for people who spent cash and made lists based around something that sometimes took advantage of a specific rule, like that old Iron Warriors rule that gave you an extra heavy. I really feel sorry for people who bought into those campaign armies and built the special chaos armies like LotD and a few others. Its really sad the way GW thinks its ok to have people throw money away, and people just accept it for the most part.

Whats most ironic is I started playing Warhammer Fantasy by accidentally wandering into a comic book store, watching some guys playing, wandering over to the fig rack and buying a bunch of chaos dwarfs cause that was the model line I liked the most. When I went back to get more for the army, the owner told be I better not start CD cause GW was gonna stop supporting them, so I switched to Orcs and Goblins (which I had a few units of). This was like the late 90s.

Im so glad I finally got off the GW bandwagon and switched to Flames of War. Im sure they'll have problems but so far an army list from a book of theirs is still an acceptable list. Even when a newer book comes out for a period/location you can still play lists from an older book. Yeah I know some people are gonna argue about the point costs of models in the diff lists but my point is, the models werent abandoned by the company.

Phydox~ I hear you I do. I know plenty of guys with Chaos Dwarves in the NE. Luckily there was a few members of a club out of NYC who on their dime put together a wonderful Chaos Dwarf independent GT list (shout out to Coleman, Birdoff, and Mongers! thank you again! )

Regardless, the GW power stretch is a reason I advise all new gamers to consider a GW "stable" army, IE 40K ~ MEQ, Orks, Guard. WFB~ Mortals, Empire, Dark Elves. IE those armies that have always been able to stay in the mix as they are stable of the ranges.. and with 40K and MEQ army can be customized easily to re-present many many armies. This option does not exist in WMHD.

People can scream about GW prices, but they are a company who is based on gamers disposible income. Gamers can vote with their wallets and play other games. Like you reference Flames of War is a wonderful system. Warmachine / Hordes is fantastic. Mantic Games makes wondeful minatures.

Lastly never forget: There are specialist games. Often the rules are free online. You can use your existing models for Mordheim, Necromunda is usable with some stand in's. The rules are most free, wondeful games which if you have a army, you can play without dropping cash.

Marzillius wrote:Seriously, think for a minute. This mentality is all over the internet: You may only play one game.

World of Warcraft or EVE Online.
League of Legends or DOTA 2.
Battlefield or Call of Duty.

And, Warhammer or Warmachine/Flames of War/Whatever.

It's pretty damn stupid, isn't it? You are allowed to play more than one game at a time. You can play Warhammer and Warmahordes at the same time, it's not exactly illegal. Prices too high? Tone down 40k and invest more into Warmachine until the prices goes down (they will eventually, GW can't raise them forever, evetually they will feel the pressure of customer dissatisfaction). Don't turn this into a price discussion btw, there are other threads for that.

Anyway, you don't need to stop playing one game in order to play another game.

Actually, You change every edition.

As to the rest of your... rant, your wrong.

Its as easy as you find out about the great change from third to fourth edition, your whole gaming club calls it quits, and you play what everyone else is playing.

Your third edition army is now defunct, anyway, so it sits in the bottom of the closet, and is pretty, but a preverbial paperwieght.

Not really stupid, when you have enough choices that you can just up and call it a day when GW gets too greedy for thier own good.

And that "great change to warmachine?" You go on ahead, but don't start crying over prices.


Its not about the prices, its a general two finger salute that you get with every "New" edition.


Azz, Gaz, or Grazz, Nobody rides for free baby!!!

Tell me how far $53.00 including tax goes in building a 1750 or 2000 point army for 40k goes off the shelf in just the boxes you bought. It'll get you a 22-33% of a normal tournament sized list for Hordes.

I'm not crying, but I will quietly giggle with a slight chuckle now and then.

Marzillius wrote:Seriously, think for a minute. This mentality is all over the internet: You may only play one game,,,,
And, Warhammer or Warmachine/Flames of War/Whatever.

It's pretty damn stupid, isn't it? You are allowed to play more than one game at a time....
...Anyway, you don't need to stop playing one game in order to play another game.

I agree it's a stupid sentiment. I do think though that many folks who say "quitting Warhammer", might actually mean "not buying more Warhammer, and instead buying another game". I essentially "quit" 40k a while back and play quite a few other wargames, but I still have my 40k stuff.

As for less than sensible statements, though, this is definitely one.

Marzillius wrote:
Prices too high? Tone down 40k and invest more into Warmachine until the prices goes down (they will eventually, GW can't raise them forever, evetually they will feel the pressure of customer dissatisfaction).

If 40k is too expensive, why would you then turn to Warmachine. Priced any Warmachine models lately?
There are many other more affordable games.

Eilif wrote:

Marzillius wrote:
Prices too high? Tone down 40k and invest more into Warmachine until the prices goes down (they will eventually, GW can't raise them forever, evetually they will feel the pressure of customer dissatisfaction).

If 40k is too expensive, why would you then turn to Warmachine. Priced any Warmachine models lately?
There are many other more affordable games.

Have you?

Tell me how far $53.00 including tax goes in building a 1750 or 2000 point army for 40k goes off the shelf in just the boxes you bought. It'll get you a 22-33% of a normal tournament sized list for Hordes.

Eilif wrote:If 40k is too expensive, why would you then turn to Warmachine. Priced any Warmachine models lately?
There are many other more affordable games.

From what I understand, this is countered because most Warmachine games are much lower model count.

12thRonin wrote:

Eilif wrote:
If 40k is too expensive, why would you then turn to Warmachine? Priced any Warmachine models lately?

Have you?

Yep, they're barking expensive! As much or more than GW stuff.

Balance wrote:
From what I understand, this is countered because most Warmachine games are much lower model count.

I'm sure that's probably true. I haven't explored the rules and army requirements for Warmachine. I've just looked at the prices of some models that I thought were cool and might like to have for my Song of Blades and Heroes warbands and found them to be -IMO- ridiculously expensive. Maybe paying that kind of $ per model but needing fewer models seems like a good deal to folks used to paying GW prices for GW sized armies, but they are both premium-priced games and there are are many more affordable options.

Put simpler, it's like pointing someone who thinks a Mercedes is to expensive to a Lexus instead of a Toyota.

Eilif wrote:

12thRonin wrote:

Eilif wrote:
If 40k is too expensive, why would you then turn to Warmachine? Priced any Warmachine models lately?

Have you?

Yep, they're barking expensive! As much or more than GW stuff.

Balance wrote:
From what I understand, this is countered because most Warmachine games are much lower model count.

I'm sure that's probably true. I haven't explored the rules and army requirements for Warmachine. I've just looked at the prices of some models that I thought were cool and might like to have for my Song of Blades and Heroes warbands and found them to be -IMO- ridiculously expensive. Maybe paying that kind of $ per model but needing fewer models seems like a good deal to folks used to paying GW prices for GW sized armies, but they are both premium-priced games and there are are many more affordable options.

Put simpler, it's like pointing someone who thinks a Mercedes is to expensive to a Lexus instead of a Toyota.

They're also in most cases metal and bigger than Warhammer equivalents for troops.

Eilif wrote:Put simpler, it's like pointing someone who thinks a Mercedes is to expensive to a Lexus instead of a Toyota.

Crap analogy.

Warmachine price per army is around much lower than 40K, and indeed often lower than many other wargames.

Kilkrazy wrote:I have models and armies for a bunch of different games, plus, as biccat said I have enough unbuilt and unpainted stuff to keep me going for years.

I've been buying and hoarding stuff for decades. None of it has really gone out of date or become unusable.

Rules change but the basics of armies don't.

It is mainly in GW games where you might find a very expensive model invalidated by a new codex like happened to Carnifexes.

Yup Yup, I dig through my pile of lead every now and again and think of all the great conversions and wonderful paint jobs they will have. Then sadly I put them away and log into DDO. I also do the same with Gundam Models, my force on force USMC and Fedyadeen armies, my vietcong forces, scratch built titan...the list is endless. LE SIGH

You can tottally play multiply games it is a bit expensive but its doable

Kaldor wrote:

Eilif wrote:Put simpler, it's like pointing someone who thinks a Mercedes is to expensive to a Lexus instead of a Toyota.

Crap analogy.

Warmachine price per army is around much lower than 40K, and indeed often lower than many other wargames.

I happen to think it's an excellent analogy.

Compare the price of a reasonably optimized Warmachine army to the cost of a...

-15mm force for Hordes of the Things
-28mm or 15mm force for Tomorrow's War
-Warband for Song of Blades and Heroes
-Gang for Necromunda or Mordheim
-A batch of heroes and villans for Herosystem (both sides!)
-Pair of 28mm squads for Ambush Alley (both sides!)
-Lance of Mechs for Battletech

... all of which can be completed for 75$ bucks or less (in many cases for much less) and you'll see that Warmachine and GW are both luxury-level games. If you want to play them, more power to you. They are good games with excellent figures and they have the benefit of a huge player base.

However when I can put together an excellent Song of Blades and Heroes warband for less than 50 bucks using great figs from companies like Reaper and others (not to mention warbands from used figs that cost less than 20) trying to make Warmachine the "budget" option is just plain silly.

Eilif wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

Eilif wrote:Put simpler, it's like pointing someone who thinks a Mercedes is to expensive to a Lexus instead of a Toyota.

Crap analogy.

Warmachine price per army is around much lower than 40K, and indeed often lower than many other wargames.

I happen to think it's an excellent analogy.

Compare the price of a reasonably optimized Warmachine army to the cost of a...

-15mm force for Hordes of the Things
-28mm or 15mm force for Tomorrow's War
-Warband for Song of Blades and Heroes
-Gang for Necromunda or Mordheim
-A batch of heroes and villans for Herosystem (both sides!)
-Pair of 28mm squads for Ambush Alley (both sides!)
-Lance of Mechs for Battletech

... all of which can be completed for 75$ bucks or less (in many cases for much less) and you'll see that Warmachine and GW are both luxury-level games. If you want to play them, more power to you. They are good games with excellent figures and they have the benefit of a huge player base.

However when I can put together an excellent Song of Blades and Heroes warband for less than 50 bucks using great figs from companies like Reaper and others (not to mention warbands from used figs that cost less than 20) trying to make Warmachine the "budget" option is just plain silly.

Or not, considering that all those other options will more often then not just sit on a shelf looking pretty due to a lack of opponents...

Don't get me wrong, I own sizeable forces for most of the systems you mentioned (TW, Necromunda, Mordheim, both 20mm and 28mm FoF and Battletech and countless other systems), they are great games all of them, but building a force on a budget is kind of useless if you then don't have anyone to play it against .

Eilif wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

Eilif wrote:Put simpler, it's like pointing someone who thinks a Mercedes is to expensive to a Lexus instead of a Toyota.

Crap analogy.

Warmachine price per army is around much lower than 40K, and indeed often lower than many other wargames.

I happen to think it's an excellent analogy.

Compare the price of a reasonably optimized Warmachine army to the cost of a...

-15mm force for Hordes of the Things
-28mm or 15mm force for Tomorrow's War
-Warband for Song of Blades and Heroes
-Gang for Necromunda or Mordheim
-A batch of heroes and villans for Herosystem (both sides!)
-Pair of 28mm squads for Ambush Alley (both sides!)
-Lance of Mechs for Battletech

... all of which can be completed for 75$ bucks or less (in many cases for much less) and you'll see that Warmachine and GW are both luxury-level games. If you want to play them, more power to you. They are good games with excellent figures and they have the benefit of a huge player base.

However when I can put together an excellent Song of Blades and Heroes warband for less than 50 bucks using great figs from companies like Reaper and others (not to mention warbands from used figs that cost less than 20) trying to make Warmachine the "budget" option is just plain silly.

Just get a battlegroup boxset of 3-4 models for about $50 and you've got enough to start playing.

The new plastic warjacks can be fitted with magnets so you can swap out the weapons for a different model each game.

PhantomViper wrote:

Eilif wrote:
-15mm force for Hordes of the Things
-28mm or 15mm force for Tomorrow's War
-Warband for Song of Blades and Heroes
-Gang for Necromunda or Mordheim
-A batch of heroes and villans for Herosystem (both sides!)
-Pair of 28mm squads for Ambush Alley (both sides!)
-Lance of Mechs for Battletech

... all of which can be completed for 75$ bucks or less (in many cases for much less)

Or not, considering that all those other options will more often then not just sit on a shelf looking pretty due to a lack of opponents...

Don't get me wrong, I own sizeable forces for most of the systems you mentioned (TW, Necromunda, Mordheim, both 20mm and 28mm FoF and Battletech and countless other systems), they are great games all of them, but building a force on a budget is kind of useless if you then don't have anyone to play it against .

I did note that warmachine and GW have built in player bases, but it's by no means impossible to find opponents for the other games. It just takes an additional effort to find those players and organize a group or search out existing groups (they are out there) via meetup, craigslist, etc. I did this, and I've been playing Song of Blades, WarEngine, Wastelands (and other post-apoc rulesets) Future War Commander, Tomorrow's War, Mech Attack and other games, with the same group for the past couple years all while spending equal or less $ in total than if I had been buying and growing armies for WM or GW. We take a bit of pride in our budget approach to wargaming and how our approach allows us to play many different scales and genres with rules and figures of our choice. Check out the club blog in my sig for examples of what I'm talking about.

In conclusion, I'm a bit of an apostle for indie gaming, but I'm really not trying to bash GW or WM players. Simply put, my point is two-fold:
-First, there are real positives to budget and "indie" gaming and having to make more effort to find opponents and/or build a gaming group shouldn't completely disqualify them as alternatives to the big 3 (GW, PP, BF).
-Second, with a cost in the area of 150-200 bucks for a competitive army, PP is not a true "budget option" when compared to the lower cost alternatives that can range from $50-75 or less.

Speaking of budget alternatives and good games:

An alternative historical minis game that I play (and that I encourage others to play) is the Ancient Historical Field of Glory - the rules are awesome, very tight for tournament play, and the rules are written so any minis (from 28mm - 10mm) can be used.

The company that publishes the game does not itself make minis, and so it is able to focus on the rules and make them very tight and sensible.

I completed a 15mm Spartan army 100% of the way for $86 - this is an 800 point army, the tournament standard.

I am currently considering building either 28mm Romans or 28mm Hoplites (or possibly Macedonians).

EDIT:

Another awesome thing about Field of Glory (although this isn't necessarily done often at tournaments) is that you can play any army against any army up till 1400. I.E. in friendly games my Spartans have fought Polish Knights, Swiss Pikemen, Russians, and Crusaders. It's pretty fun.

But..... by the time the prices decrease with gamesworkshop... my army will be outdated and they will have new models...

stormwell wrote:

Just get a battlegroup boxset of 3-4 models for about $50 and you've got enough to start playing.

The new plastic warjacks can be fitted with magnets so you can swap out the weapons for a different model each game.

(underlined for empahsis)

That's the rub isn't it. "Start playing". All the big games have somewhat reasonable starter kits, but how many folks play with just the starter kit? Going from starter to the size of the games that most folks like to play -even moreso if you want to get competitive- has a much higher pricetag.

For most of the games that I play, you can build a complete army/platoon/warband for close to the starting cost of the big 3.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spyder68 wrote:But..... by the time the prices decrease with gamesworkshop...

I wouldn't hold my breath for this my friend.

Unit1126PLL wrote:Speaking of budget alternatives and good games:

An alternative historical minis game that I play (and that I encourage others to play) is the Ancient Historical Field of Glory - the rules are awesome, very tight for tournament play, and the rules are written so any minis (from 28mm - 10mm) can be used...

...I completed a 15mm Spartan army 100% of the way for $86 - this is an 800 point army, the tournament standard...

An excellent suggestion. I'm not into historicals, but there's a club near me that's doing something similar (http://plasticlegionsblog.freeforums.org/). I think they're doing plastic 28mm and using the Hail Ceasar rules, but IIRC, they're also able to put together large standard armies for under 100 bucks.

More streamlined rulesets and waves of new plastic miniatures (Perry, Warlord, Wargames Factory, Victirx, etc) have made historical gaming in 28mm a very reasonable proposition, even when dealing with quite large numbers of miniatures.

Speaking of budgets if you change to smaller scales 15mm's you will get plenty of minis for plenty of systems dirty cheap and the 15mm mini quality these days is notting to snif about.

Honestly i've been too busy irl to invest more into Warmahordes. I didn't quit Warhammer as I still have my 2000 point Beastmen army. But i've halted any GW spending. Just can't do it it unnerves me that the prices have to go up annually. They are merely shooting themselves in the foot and it's sad as I legitimately like Fantasy and 40k. 40k's player base though...Well.

Eilif wrote:
I did note that warmachine and GW have built in player bases, but it's by no means impossible to find opponents for the other games. It just takes an additional effort to find those players and organize a group or search out existing groups (they are out there) via meetup, craigslist, etc. I did this, and I've been playing Song of Blades, WarEngine, Wastelands (and other post-apoc rulesets) Future War Commander, Tomorrow's War, Mech Attack and other games, with the same group for the past couple years all while spending equal or less $ in total than if I had been buying and growing armies for WM or GW. We take a bit of pride in our budget approach to wargaming and how our approach allows us to play many different scales and genres with rules and figures of our choice. Check out the club blog in my sig for examples of what I'm talking about.

In conclusion, I'm a bit of an apostle for indie gaming, but I'm really not trying to bash GW or WM players. Simply put, my point is two-fold:
-First, there are real positives to budget and "indie" gaming and having to make more effort to find opponents and/or build a gaming group shouldn't completely disqualify them as alternatives to the big 3 (GW, PP, BF).
-Second, with a cost in the area of 150-200 bucks for a competitive army, PP is not a true "budget option" when compared to the lower cost alternatives that can range from $50-75 or less.

Trust me, in some countries / cities, its impossible.

You live in Chicago, that single city has more people in it than almost my entire country! You managed to find a small group to play those games in your city, over here it would be impossible to find anyone to play a game outside GW / PP / FoW if I didn't live in the capital...

That being said, I am complaining a bit too much, WHFB's demise has not only brought a surge in WMH, but it has also caused a small group of people to start playing Dystopian Wars, Infinity and even FoF! If 40K 6th edition is as crappy as WHFB 8th edition was, we might even get people playing Malifaux and Dropzone Commander!

Well, my "quitting" Warhammer is definitely not a "I can only play one game a time" thing. In fact, I actively play two games right now: Warmachine, and (when I can find opponents) Dystopian Wars. There are several other games I'm looking into playing, as well.

I simply view time spent playing Warhammer as time I probably could've spent playing other games I am more interested in, or indeed, pursuing other interests. Ergo, I have quit Warhammer.

RatBot wrote:Well, my "quitting" Warhammer is definitely not a "I can only play one game a time" thing. In fact, I actively play two games right now: Warmachine, and (when I can find opponents) Dystopian Wars. There are several other games I'm looking into playing, as well.

I simply view time spent playing Warhammer as time I probably could've spent playing other games I am more interested in, or indeed, pursuing other interests. Ergo, I have quit Warhammer.

Pretty much this, quitting warhammer has opened me up to so many new wargames it's just silly. When I get my WM/H armies painted and situated I'm giving serious thought to throwing down for a big Kings of War orc army deal and/or a small squad of infinity just to add even more variety to my gaming life.

The OP did not mention it, but the oldest example I can think of is the console war.
It seems that for some people, if you own one gaming system, you HAVE to despise the others and people who happen to own them. You spit on them, insult them and their family on twenty generations past and future, and leave them to their misery while feeling yourself infinitely superior because those people obviously have a negative IQ for making a choice so inferior to yours.

Maybe at this point you're starting to guess what I'm going to say : such behaviours are supported by a whole lot of underlying psychological biases.

Belonging to a group is an instinctive drive. Picking a "team" in a situation with two different sides (which are not always inherently opposite, as the OP aims to remind us) is a natural reaction, but not necessarily, or even seldom, a well thought-out one. Even if one was to actually ponder the debate afterward, well...

Being wrong, or merely reconsidering a past decision, is something we don't like very much. Especially if someone else is involved, because then they have won the argument and we've lost ! Intolerable, right ? Errors are things others make ! But even when nobody tries to push us to change our mind...

Thinking in black and white is easy. Good vs Evil ! All or nothing ! Us vs them ! Acknowledging nuances actually requires admitting that the world isn't so simple and clear-cut ; not everyone is comfortable with that idea, or willing to put some effort into understanding things more in depth. It's just easier to dismiss the other side as plain evil or hopelessly stupid.

So here you have it. Looks like there are a few ingrained patterns that prevent us from being reasonable when it comes to such things as... well, think about the most polarising topic you know. I'm sure we're thinking of the same
And entertainment is not spared. Either you are pro Xbox OR you are a PlayStation person. Either you play Warhammer OR you play Malifaux. What's that ? "Both are fine" ? Hold on buddy, you're dangerously close to compromising here. You wouldn't betray your team, now would you ?

I'm not saying we're absolutely unable to think and behave reasonably, far from it. Thankfully. I'm not trying to be preachy, either. Just wanted to bring some food for thought regarding the topic brought up by the OP, and because we do make irrational decisions sometimes, I might as well try to raise awareness about some possibles causes. I like to believe it can make one a better person. It certainly works for me.

wel i like the psychological look at why people are only this game and not that game...and i totally get it but i'm jsut not sure if that works for my area.

there really is only one popular table top game that people play and that is 40k, you will always find a game of 40k. occasionally you may find a fantasy game but thats like 1 out of 3 or 5

as for other systems intierly such as malifaux and infinity...no on eplayes them atr all and there are no games where i live to be played.

i will start a malifaux game but to do that i will have to buy 2-3 teams and setup a board and get the rules books and do everything so that when i want a game i can either invite someone over to play with me or i play myself...as there si no where i can go to find a game.

i think that plays into the all or nothing you tend to see sometimes, pepole simply don't play one or the other because there is no other to play you stuck in a single systm because of the comunity around you and to start a new system ... well it will take alot of time money and imput from you alone.

anyway i think malifaux is worth getting into so i will get a couple of gangs and the rules and stuff get a table sorted and learn how to play then i will try to get some friend sto play with me, but i know they will not want to buy any models so to get them to play, i will hvave to lay the ground work...adn thats something you need time and money and sheer will to do. and one reason why i would tend to drop 1 game system in favour of another...hopefully it won't come to that.

biccat wrote:

CorvidMP wrote:Tell this to my mechanized tau (haven't functioned properly for an entire edition)

You can't play mechanized tau in 5th edition?

Don't forget. If it's not a top teir army, the internet says 'it doesn't work like it should'.

biccat wrote:

CorvidMP wrote:my bud's blood ravens who used to take advantage of the old true grit special rule that let them rock a bolter and chainsword (now half the entire lovingly converted army is illegal)

It's not illegal to have a bolter and chainsword modeled on a unit. All models have a close combat weapon, they just aren't usually modeled with it.

More than one game?!?! Heresy!

Rogues Gambit wrote:
anyway i think malifaux is worth getting into so i will get a couple of gangs and the rules and stuff get a table sorted and learn how to play then i will try to get some friend sto play with me, but i know they will not want to buy any models so to get them to play, i will hvave to lay the ground work....

This is a point worth making. Very often, in order to get folks playing other games, you will have to supply both sides of a battle and then recruit players.

When I first started playing Song of Blades and Heroes I had no fantasy figures and I played with other club member's figures, then I rebased some D&D prepaints, and finally I painted a warband of my own. On the flip side when the club plays Warengine (sci-fi game) Mech Attack or Future War commander (10mm sci-fi games) I'm often supplying at least one other member or guest player with miniatures.

This is something that historical players have done for a long time. There may be a couple of eras (WW2, Napoleonics, etc) that all group members own a force for, but if you want to play a few games in the Boer War, or the Falklands, you will probably have to supply figs for both sides.

Just started dabbling in Warmachine... Sitting pretty on 69 points and multiple warcasters and I've dumped maybe 350 into it, including books. All at MSRP. No discounts.


Feels weird.