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Jayden63 wrote:

Kain wrote:

phoenixrisin wrote:

Kain wrote:As I said, the Terran marine would fire only for all of his bullets to bounce off the Space marine's armour, and then the space marine would calmly grab the Terran by the head and smash his knee into the visor, break it, then grab the marine's head and rip it out along with the rest of his spine. Or if he's more practical he'll just put a well aimed bolter shell in that huge and vulnerable visor.

it says the spikes penetrate 2 inches of steel. and they also have stim. this argument is silly though, cuz SC marines are basically blizzards take on space marines.

Good thing Ceramite is specifically said to be six times stronger than warhammer steel, which clearly isn't our kind of steel because there's no way it would be half as durable as it is if it were.

Well regretfully when SM fluff was first coming out everything sci-fi needed to be bigger and better. Hell, most of the early stuff reads like a 12 yr old fan fic. All it needs is a few added wooshes.

The ceramite statistics were also written before Carbon Fibers and Nanotubes were a thing. And if Ceramite were only six times stronger than our high strength steel alloys, it would look weenie compared to Carbon Fiber which is ten times stronger, and Carbon Nanotubes which are a hundred times stronger.

liquidjoshi wrote:I think power armour is a bit better than 2" of steel.

most tanks don't have that much armor...


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liquidjoshi wrote:

juraigamer wrote:

phoenixrisin wrote:

it says the spikes penetrate 2 inches of steel. and they also have stim. this argument is silly though, cuz SC marines are basically blizzards take on space marines.

Blizzard also says those marines can gun down battlecrusiers with their guns. GW can say all the want about SM, show me where a bolter can down a large void worthy ship and I might agree space marines would win, but as it stands only grey knights would.

You ever play Dawn of War? Marines can take down Titans with Bolters. Titans are only in certain mods, by the way.

bolters can't hurt titans in the table top game.


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Kain wrote:That is of course, assuming that warhammer steel is one hundred precent equivalent to modern high strength, low alloy steel. It's likely not, otherwise bolters could quite likely threaten leman russ tanks.

well if the back armor is a ten than they can.


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Kain wrote:The space marine is likely quicker on the draw with their literally superhuman reflexes and a bolter is a much bigger and more deadly projectile. And that huge plexiglass visor sure looks like an inviting target. One that a bolter shell could slam right through, go into the head of the target, and explode it like the cranium of that one Nigerian Crimelord in District 9.

stim...

Bolters can annoy leman russ tanks, not seriously threaten them. Space Marine doctrine when faced with heavy tanks, but are themselves lacking in anti-armour support, is to get on the tank and use krak grenades, not plink uselessly at the rear armour with the bolter. And a sherman freaking tank has 3' inches of steel armour.

Kain wrote:

Jayden63 wrote:

Kain wrote:

phoenixrisin wrote:

Kain wrote:As I said, the Terran marine would fire only for all of his bullets to bounce off the Space marine's armour, and then the space marine would calmly grab the Terran by the head and smash his knee into the visor, break it, then grab the marine's head and rip it out along with the rest of his spine. Or if he's more practical he'll just put a well aimed bolter shell in that huge and vulnerable visor.

it says the spikes penetrate 2 inches of steel. and they also have stim. this argument is silly though, cuz SC marines are basically blizzards take on space marines.

Good thing Ceramite is specifically said to be six times stronger than warhammer steel, which clearly isn't our kind of steel because there's no way it would be half as durable as it is if it were.

Well regretfully when SM fluff was first coming out everything sci-fi needed to be bigger and better. Hell, most of the early stuff reads like a 12 yr old fan fic. All it needs is a few added wooshes.

The ceramite statistics were also written before Carbon Fibers and Nanotubes were a thing. And if Ceramite were only six times stronger than our high strength steel alloys, it would look weenie compared to Carbon Fiber which is ten times stronger, and Carbon Nanotubes which are a hundred times stronger.

carbon fibre is not "10x stronger than steel" it's "ten times stronger pound for pound. basically, you can achieve the same strength at a 1/10 of the weight. it's not like a inch thick piece of carbon fibre is as strong as a 10" thick piece of steel. plus it's way more brittle and it's hardened with a resin so it would be way more vulnerable to melta.


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Kain wrote:Bolters can annoy leman russ tanks, not seriously threaten them. Space Marine doctrine when faced with heavy tanks, but are themselves lacking in anti-armour support, is to get on the tank and use krak grenades, not plink uselessly at the rear armour with the bolter. And a sherman freaking tank has 3' inches of steel armour.

a sherman is a medium tank, mo re akin to a predator so bolters can't hurt those and neither can SC marines.

a sherman is also an ancient tank... a m1a2 has almost 4 inches

I highly doubt that a space marine has more than an inch of ceramite, therefore 8m SPIKES are going through it.

You are again assuming Warhammer steel=Modern steel. This is *very* unlikely as if it were, a krak missile would be able to penetrate a Leman Russ' frontal armour with no problem with it's given thickness. And guess what, a krak missile cannot penetrate a leman russ tank's frontal armour *at all.*

a krak missile can splatter a space marine so i don't really know what a leman russ has to do with it.

^ i rest my case

It's a comparison. If your spikey spikes can punch through Astartes armour like you claim it can, then a Krak missile would ba able to tear apart a Russ's frontal armour like paper. Guess what? It can't.

Your spike guns are not firing Krak missiles, Starcraft marines are probably somewhere between A guardsman and a halo Spartan. Maybe.

And Phoenixrisin, I know perfectly well how Titans work on the tabletop. But the table top is meant to be balanced (to a degree. That debate belongs elsewhere). However, I think it's perfectly legitimate to use DoW as starcraft is a videogame itself.

And ceramite plates do not equal modern armour. ceramite is pretty fething hard to beat even with 40K weapons. Spikers won't be getting through any time soon. It was something like wearing the equivilent of 6" of steel IIRC.

TL;DR version: Your guns are not shooting krak missiles. I know how titans work on the tabletop. Ceramite > steel.

Brother Thomas wrote:Not to mention it doesnt take a long time to get new recruits

You're right on that mark. A tactical squad of marines takes years to train and hone until they can get to the level of brutality and efficiency they fully wield. Terran marines, however, are the regular joes in giant suits of armor, who are trained in weeks, maybe months, just to be fair.
On a 1-on-1, the Tactical Space Marine would more than likely win. I'm not sure what an 8mm spike would do to power armor, .75 caliber bolt shells are designed to explode immediately after penetration. Even if they didn't penetrate the Terran marine's armor, they will still detonate, which is still dangerous, if not lethal. Space Marines are also genetically enhanced to be stronger and faster than a regular human being. Terran Marines might be able to match that speed and power with stimm-packs, but this is only a temporary boost. The various side-effects of combat drugs will soon take their toll, and the Terran Marine will slow down. Meanwhile, the Space Marine will still be using the full effects of his enhanced body with little exhaustion.
I don't think I need to go into the gory details of close-combat.
However, if we were to take a company of Marines against 1,000 Terran Marines, the Terran Marines would win through sheer volume of fire. This could be easily compared with 100 Guardsmen against one Marine. Eventually, one hundred lasguns firing will find weak spots in the Space Marine's armor, and the Marine won't be able to kill all 100 soldiers without taking some heavy damage to his frame.
/

Brother Thomas wrote:Not to mention it doesnt take a long time to get new recruits

That is true, however as a member of the USMC you know the value of training and experience, Terran marines are looking at around 20-30 years at most of combat experience before age takes its toll and starts slowing down the warrior, also according to one of the SC novels they have about 3 months of training, wherein IIRC to become a tactical marine barring any form of rushed advancement it takes around 30 years to even be promoted to tactical status. During this time they are fighting consistently with heavy weapons, stealth, and melee. For example you have military training and i do not, the most I have would be airsoft and some target shooting, in both hand to hand and ranged you would undoubtedly beat me like a redheaded stepchild.

Also remember that many space marine organs act as well as stim packs, be it enhanced strength, enhanced stamina, or just spitting acid into someones face. The Haemastamen makes the blood more efficient. Also there is an organ designed to cause blood to coagulate almost instantly making many normally lethal wounds null.Also consider the need to rest, Terran marines are humans, no matter how many drugs you pump into someone there will be a crash or an overdose at some point, wherein the Space Marines have an organ specifically designed for ignoring sleep.

Space Marine power armor also maintains superior attributes to the SC counterpart. According to FFG Power Armor carries pain suppressant's that allow them to in essence ignore the most grievous of wounds, wherein Terran Stim packs act like cocaine on steroids. Now again according to the Deathwatch rpg Power Armor gives about twice as much protection than that of standard carapace armor, carapace armor time and again throughout 40k fluff stops hard rounds whilst having issues with lasfire, wherein Power Armor completely scoffs at lasfire. So the Gauss round may very well be most easily compared to the lasgun for damage on both materials and the body, but that is sheer conjecture on my part.

TL;DR: Superior Training, Combat experience, physiologies, and technology give the Space Marines a Clear advantage imo

^^ this sums it up, and beside. I dare say the things that 40k Marines deal with on daily basis is a bit more deadly than the things found in SC,

Wardragoon said it the best.

The strength of the Astartes (beyond their armor and rapid-fire mini-rockets) is their implants. Beyond the whole added strength and stamina, they are made to take big hits and keep fighting almost unimpaired. For days. Without any rest.

If a terran marine gets hit by a bolter and it damages his suit at all (or hits him directly) he's essentially already dead. He'd have to make zero mistakes against a marine who's potentially fought for centuries. Meanwhile, the Astartes is being faced with spikes, which, while dangerous, he could work around as his implants heal him right back up.