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Happyjew wrote:

undertow wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

undertow wrote:Where is it stated that JotWW doesn't affect Jump Infantry?

... In the ability. Page 37 of Codex: Space Wolves lists the unit types it affects. Jump Infantry isn't listed.

Then why would anyone think that Flying Monstrous Creatures are affected? It's a new type of unit, and it's not explicitly listed. It seems to me that the whole 'can you hit it with snap fire' debate is irrelevant. The ability doesn't list Flying MCs as a being affected, and there is no FAQ adding Flying MCs to the ability.

QED

There are 2 possibilities:
A) JOTWW cannot be Snap-fired and thus cannot hit FMC
B) JOTWW can affect FMC because, they are not listed as being immune on the codex, and the FAQ/Errata/Amendments did not change this.

It looks like the SW codex is only listing unit types that ARE affected. I don't see Jump Infantry listed anywhere in the power description or FAQ. The same is true for Jump Monstrous Creatures and Flying Monstrous Creatures. I still say that due to this, these unit types are simply immune to this power.

On the case of Vibro-Cannons, if you don't pick the flyer as a target, but it's merely a target hit by the line, would it hit? Since it's not a Template or Blast weapon or snap shotted then.

After all, you can just pick any other target, roll to hit and then draw the line in ANY direction.

Shandara wrote:On the case of Vibro-Cannons, if you don't pick the flyer as a target, but it's merely a target hit by the line, would it hit? Since it's not a Template or Blast weapon or snap shotted then.

After all, you can just pick any other target, roll to hit and then draw the line in ANY direction.

You actually don't pick any targets, at all. This weapon breaks all the rules; just roll to hit based off of BS and you can hit anything at all, even if they aren't legal targets; enemies in CC, your own units, your own units in CC, units you can't even see.. as long as it fits under the 36'' long line.

Interested to see if this weapon changes in a new book.

Steel Angel wrote:if it does not use a BS to hit or it has special rules it can not snap fire. so no auto hits.

incorrect snapfire says you cannot shoot at a flier unless it is a snapfire. if you are hitting with a non shooting attack that is also not a assault or psychic shootign attack or template it can hit a flier

granted there are only a handful of these abilities and mostly in older codexes so they may be faq'd but RAW some non shooting abilities can auto hit or in some cases hit on whatever designated number as with bomb squigs a 2+ hits RAW

Can a Death Ray hit a flyer?

Argument against:
All shooting against flyers are resolved as Snapfire.
Any shooting attack that does not use a BS cannot be used as a Snapfire shot.

Argument for:
The Doom Scythe can choose to fire against the target in Skyfire mode, bypassing Snapfire.
The Doom Scythe Death Ray does not target a unit on the board, it just draws a line.



It would appear that the Death Ray can hit flyers as well then?

Falconlance wrote:

Shandara wrote:On the case of Vibro-Cannons, if you don't pick the flyer as a target, but it's merely a target hit by the line, would it hit? Since it's not a Template or Blast weapon or snap shotted then.

After all, you can just pick any other target, roll to hit and then draw the line in ANY direction.

You actually don't pick any targets, at all. This weapon breaks all the rules; just roll to hit based off of BS and you can hit anything at all, even if they aren't legal targets; enemies in CC, your own units, your own units in CC, units you can't even see.. as long as it fits under the 36'' long line.

Interested to see if this weapon changes in a new book.

I guess you could park it out of LoS or in a bunker then and just cause a glancing hit each turn, which for a single heavy support choice isn't that great.

Happyjew wrote:Actually, that is an interesting question (Vibro Cannon) All you do is roll to hit (no target or nothing) and if successful, all units under a 36" straight line suffers hits at a strength and AP.

If you roll to hit, then you can Snap Fire the weapon. This means you only hit on a 6.

And, because the Vibro Cannon isn't a template, blast, or large blast weapon, it CAN hit a swooping/zooming flyer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AgeOfEgos wrote:It would appear that the Death Ray can hit flyers as well then?

Only if it is using Skyfire that shooting phase.

And if it does, any ground units under the line cannot be hit, since the Death Ray would be Snap Firing at them.

Shandara wrote:

Falconlance wrote:

Shandara wrote:On the case of Vibro-Cannons, if you don't pick the flyer as a target, but it's merely a target hit by the line, would it hit? Since it's not a Template or Blast weapon or snap shotted then.

After all, you can just pick any other target, roll to hit and then draw the line in ANY direction.

You actually don't pick any targets, at all. This weapon breaks all the rules; just roll to hit based off of BS and you can hit anything at all, even if they aren't legal targets; enemies in CC, your own units, your own units in CC, units you can't even see.. as long as it fits under the 36'' long line.

Interested to see if this weapon changes in a new book.

I guess you could park it out of LoS or in a bunker then and just cause a glancing hit each turn, which for a single heavy support choice isn't that great.

Well considering its like 45 points and you hit everything under the 3foot line, you could park it in a corner and strip hullpoints from multiple vehicles and inflict pinning wounds on multiple units all in one shot.

Can't exactly math hammer that, but that sounds pretty neat.

wording for hard to hit " zooming flyers are incredibly difficult to target for troops without suitibly calibrated weapons and scopes. Shots resolved at a zooming flyer can only be resolved as snap shots (unless the model or weapon has the skyfire special rule as described on page 42). Template, Blast and Large Blast weapons cannot hit flyers in zoom mode. "

skyfire as reported on page 42 "A model with this special rule, or that is firing a weapon with this special rule fires using its normal ballistic skill when shooting at flyers, flying monstrous creatures and skimmers. Unless it also has the Interceptor special rule it can only fire snap shots against other targets."

so any attack regarded as a shooting attack or shot will need to snap fire to hit a flying target. if it does not resolve as a shot or an assault then it could auto hit or on a special designated to hit such as a bomb squig

on the case of an eldar case d cannons and shadow weaver are blast templates so by definition cannot hit a flyer

the vibo cannon- roll to hit. if any of the vibro cannons hit draw a single 36" line from one vibo cannon in any direction any unit under the line suffers d6 hits at str4 add one str for each vido cannon in the battery . this would be like a template but instead a line as opposed to a line however the vibo cannon is a defined unit as artillary which per pg 46 or 6e which says "gun models cannot be fired if they are moved at all in the turn's movement phase- they cannotmake snap shots" as it is defined specifically as a shto per brb and cannot be snap shot it cannot hit a flyer

kjolnir wrote:

Happyjew wrote:Actually, that is an interesting question (Vibro Cannon) All you do is roll to hit (no target or nothing) and if successful, all units under a 36" straight line suffers hits at a strength and AP.

If you roll to hit, then you can Snap Fire the weapon. This means you only hit on a 6.

And, because the Vibro Cannon isn't a template, blast, or large blast weapon, it CAN hit a swooping/zooming flyer.

Except the Vibro Cannon is Artillery which means it cannot be Snap Fired. If I end up drawing the line over a Flyer and my opponent says nothing, it is hit. If he says something like "You can't hit because it has to be Snap Fired and Artillery cannot be Snap Fired" i'll let them have it. Vibro Cannons are not my weapon of choice for taking out Flyers. Scatter Lasers otoh....

OK, What about Blood Lance? No roll to hit is required, and everything in the path of the line is hit. I think it is a Witchfire weapon, and can be snap fired.

Happyjew wrote:

kjolnir wrote:

Happyjew wrote:Actually, that is an interesting question (Vibro Cannon) All you do is roll to hit (no target or nothing) and if successful, all units under a 36" straight line suffers hits at a strength and AP.

If you roll to hit, then you can Snap Fire the weapon. This means you only hit on a 6.

And, because the Vibro Cannon isn't a template, blast, or large blast weapon, it CAN hit a swooping/zooming flyer.

Except the Vibro Cannon is Artillery which means it cannot be Snap Fired. If I end up drawing the line over a Flyer and my opponent says nothing, it is hit. If he says something like "You can't hit because it has to be Snap Fired and Artillery cannot be Snap Fired" i'll let them have it. Vibro Cannons are not my weapon of choice for taking out Flyers. Scatter Lasers otoh....

Geez...so many cross-checks to make.

So...list of things that cannot hit swooping/zooming flyers ever:

1) Artillery
2) Psychic Shooting Attacks that do not require a to-hit roll
3) Template, Blast, and Large Blast weapons
4) Any other weapons that auto-hit that do not also have the Skyfire special rule.

Anything else I'm leaving out?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jbunny wrote:OK, What about Blood Lance? No roll to hit is required, and everything in the path of the line is hit. I think it is a Witchfire weapon, and can be snap fired.

If it doesn't require a to-hit roll, it can't be Snap Fired, unless specifically noted otherwise.

This includes Psychic Shooting Attacks like Blood Lance.

Which part of the rules is this covered? It seems like you have to look at 4 different sections of the book just to see if you can shoot one weapon. Not liking this book so far.

jbunny wrote:Which part of the rules is this covered? It seems like you have to look at 4 different sections of the book just to see if you can shoot one weapon. Not liking this book so far.

Which part?

Under the Snap Shot rules, it says shooting attacks that do not make to-hit rolls cannot be used to Snap Fire. Snap Shot is the only non-Skyfire way to shoot at a Swooping/Zooming Flyer.

Under the Hard to Hit rule, Template, Blast, and Large Blast weapons are specifically excluded.

Under the Skyfire rule, it says all shots made at Swooping/Zooming flyers are made at full BS, I.E. not a Snap Shot. Therefore shooting attacks frtom other than Template, Blast and Large Blast weapons that otherwise auto-hit CAN hit.

Not sure about Artillery, probably in the description for it in the BRB that it cannot Snap Fire.

Happyjew wrote:

kjolnir wrote:

Happyjew wrote:Actually, that is an interesting question (Vibro Cannon) All you do is roll to hit (no target or nothing) and if successful, all units under a 36" straight line suffers hits at a strength and AP.

If you roll to hit, then you can Snap Fire the weapon. This means you only hit on a 6.

And, because the Vibro Cannon isn't a template, blast, or large blast weapon, it CAN hit a swooping/zooming flyer.

Except the Vibro Cannon is Artillery which means it cannot be Snap Fired. If I end up drawing the line over a Flyer and my opponent says nothing, it is hit. If he says something like "You can't hit because it has to be Snap Fired and Artillery cannot be Snap Fired" i'll let them have it. Vibro Cannons are not my weapon of choice for taking out Flyers. Scatter Lasers otoh....

Except you are not shooting at the flyer, you merely roll to hit to activate the effect. The effect then hits everything beneath the line. You never actually roll to-hit versus the flyer at all, it is never targetted by any to-hit roll at all.

The vibro-cannon really sits outside the normal shooting procedure.

Shandara wrote:

Happyjew wrote:

kjolnir wrote:

Happyjew wrote:Actually, that is an interesting question (Vibro Cannon) All you do is roll to hit (no target or nothing) and if successful, all units under a 36" straight line suffers hits at a strength and AP.

If you roll to hit, then you can Snap Fire the weapon. This means you only hit on a 6.

And, because the Vibro Cannon isn't a template, blast, or large blast weapon, it CAN hit a swooping/zooming flyer.

Except the Vibro Cannon is Artillery which means it cannot be Snap Fired. If I end up drawing the line over a Flyer and my opponent says nothing, it is hit. If he says something like "You can't hit because it has to be Snap Fired and Artillery cannot be Snap Fired" i'll let them have it. Vibro Cannons are not my weapon of choice for taking out Flyers. Scatter Lasers otoh....

Except you are not shooting at the flyer, you merely roll to hit to activate the effect. The effect then hits everything beneath the line. You never actually roll to-hit versus the flyer at all, it is never targetted by any to-hit roll at all.

The vibro-cannon really sits outside the normal shooting procedure.

If you're not Snap Firing, you're not hitting the Flyer. Artillery can't Snap Fire, therefore it cannot hit the Flyer.

Besides the fact that the Artillery description says it can't Snap Fire, the fact (if true) that you aren't rolling to-hit versus the Flyer also means you're not Snap Firing. Which means you can't hit the Flyer.

The relevant rule for flyers:

Hard to Hit
<snip>
Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots
</snip
Template, Blast and Large Blast weapons cannot hit Flyers in Zoom mode

First of all, the Vibro-cannon do not shoot at the Flyer, they never target it. The vibro-cannon rule literally says you don't have to pick a target, you just roll to see if you pass the BS test.
Secondly, to shoot at a target, you must select it as a target (check range/LoS and such) (see pg. 12), the vibro-cannon merely draws an imaginary line 36" long ignoring terrain and LoS.
Thirdly, any unit touched by the line takes either some hits (non-vehicle) or an automatic glancing hit (vehicles).

To me, this bypasses the notion that it is a shot fired AT the flyer, which can only be resolved as a snap shot.

>

A line, by definition, is a 2 dimensional object. In this case it is 36" long.

Since Flyers are suspended above the table by their bases, it is impossable to hit other stuff along with the Flyer(except another Flyer)

So you have to choose between the Flyer and other stuff on the table.

Shandara wrote:

To me, this bypasses the notion that it is a shot fired AT the flyer, which can only be resolved as a snap shot.

>

That's unfortunate.

Unless it's Snap Firing or has the Skyfire Rule, it can't hit the Flyer. Ever. Since Artillery can't Snap Fire...well...there ya go. It's no different than a Template weapon hitting an infantry unit right next to a Flyer. Even if you clip the Flyer's base, you're still not hitting it, even though you auto-hit everything under the Template.

The only difference is that one is specifically mentioned by name in the rules, and one is not. Still, there are sufficient rules in place that should tell you the Vibro-Cannon isn't going to ever hit a Swooping/Zooming flyer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:A line, by definition, is a 2 dimensional object. In this case it is 36" long.

It's also 1mm wide in 6th.

A line, in Euclidean geometry, is actually a one dimensional object. Which for this discussion is a mostly irrelevant. I'm just being a picker of nits.

Shandara wrote:The relevant rule for flyers:

Hard to Hit
<snip>
Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots
</snip
Template, Blast and Large Blast weapons cannot hit Flyers in Zoom mode

First of all, the Vibro-cannon do not shoot at the Flyer, they never target it. The vibro-cannon rule literally says you don't have to pick a target, you just roll to see if you pass the BS test.
Secondly, to shoot at a target, you must select it as a target (check range/LoS and such) (see pg. 12), the vibro-cannon merely draws an imaginary line 36" long ignoring terrain and LoS.
Thirdly, any unit touched by the line takes either some hits (non-vehicle) or an automatic glancing hit (vehicles).

To me, this bypasses the notion that it is a shot fired AT the flyer, which can only be resolved as a snap shot.

>

Shots can only be resolved as snap fire.

Your vibro cannon is shooting. Your shot can not be resolved against a flyer, even if you hit it.