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They count in combat as the character causing the wounds is not in base contact with the unit, only another character, therefor they do not overflow.

This is my interpretation of it, I'm not going to start this argument on this forum as well as all of the others.

Portugal Jones wrote:Right, I don't think anyone is this thread has ever contested that.

I misunderstood your question. Nothing prevents a second sarge challenging in the next turn.

Vindicare-Obsession wrote:They count in combat as the character causing the wounds is not in base contact with the unit, only another character, therefor they do not overflow.

This is my interpretation of it, I'm not going to start this argument on this forum as well as all of the others.

Don't quite follow, but I think that's because I didn't make myself clear. What I'm asking is: do wounds in a challenge that exceed the total number of wounds on the loser's profle count towards the combat resolution score, or are only the wounds on the loser's profile counted?

ah, only the wounds on the profile if I'm not mistaken. I dont belive there is an overkill factor like there is in fantasy

Do squad upgrades such as sergeants, exarchs, nobs, etc. even count as characters? Or are they merely squad "upgrades"?


Edit

Ah nvmd. I just saw the reference tables at the end of the book.

Vindicare-Obsession wrote:ah, only the wounds on the profile if I'm not mistaken. I dont belive there is an overkill factor like there is in fantasy

Ah, well, that's bad news then. My Bloodthirster will have to focus on smashing up tanks.

htj wrote:

Vindicare-Obsession wrote:ah, only the wounds on the profile if I'm not mistaken. I dont belive there is an overkill factor like there is in fantasy

Ah, well, that's bad news then. My Bloodthirster will have to focus on smashing up tanks.

Seems mightily unbalanced to me.

IMO, I would propose that if a char is in a squad and the MC inflicts more wounds than the single challenger has and the challenger dies, those wounds are carried over to the squad and the rest of the squad should roll to save. I imagine that would be pretty balanced and prevent a sacrificial play becoming common. It should be a last ditch attempt of sorts to help complete a mission objective by distracting a char/MC, not a way of rendering powerful enemy units inert for the entirety of the game.

The rule as it stands seems to be designed to prevent powerful chars running rampant through the more vulnerable parts of your army unchecked, but the unintended consequence is that these chars can be locked up in every turn by expendable units for a comparatively lower cost.

It's less of an "Oh lets screw solo IC's" and more of a slight oversight. For those of you who don't know WHFB has a rule called overkill where if you win a challenge any excess wounds caused are applied to combat rez but not to the unit. I feel like if you belive this is unbalanced you may propose something like that to your opponent before a game or as a "store rule" until it gets FAQ'd (As it inevitably will)

Vindicare-Obsession wrote:It's less of an "Oh lets screw solo IC's" and more of a slight oversight. For those of you who don't know WHFB has a rule called overkill where if you win a challenge any excess wounds caused are applied to combat rez but not to the unit. I feel like if you belive this is unbalanced you may propose something like that to your opponent before a game or as a "store rule" until it gets FAQ'd (As it inevitably will)

I think you're right about it being an oversight. Certainly I'm going to discuss house-ruling this to be in line with the Fantasy method with my gaming group.

Its the way we play it at my FLGS. It seems the best way to keep the spirit of the challenge (Kinda disheartning to see your champion torn to bits and then eaten by a greater demon you know )

Da Mediokre Painta wrote:The rule as it stands seems to be designed to prevent powerful chars running rampant through the more vulnerable parts of your army unchecked, but the unintended consequence is that these chars can be locked up in every turn by expendable units for a comparatively lower cost.

No.

These characters can be locked up every turn if you solo charge an IG blob squad with them. That is all. You are going to be VERY hard pressed to find a similar situation where other units have an abundance of cheap characters they can throw away. It's also a situation that's unbelievably easy to counter or avoid. Don't charge a unit with 5-10 characters in it with 1 MC.

IG are not the only ones who field a ton of characters in units. Necrons, Wolves, Blood Angels, and the like do that as well.

None of which can throw 'trash' characters into challenges like the aforementioned blob squads, and the same situation still stands. If you see your opponent running around with a squad of barebones crypteks and lords... don't solo charge them with your MC. It's not rocket science.

Portugal Jones wrote:None of which can throw 'trash' characters into challenges like the aforementioned blob squads, and the same situation still stands. If you see your opponent running around with a squad of barebones crypteks and lords... don't solo charge them with your MC. It's not rocket science.

Yeah, cause you can absolutely always stay out of combat with any unit you pick. You'll never get charged unless you want to be.

Especially in an edition where everyone is essentially the same speed.

I would like to point out that, while the bloodthirster is tied up in combat, the entirety of that blob of guardsmen is now also, preventing them from going to objectives, shooting, etc. So there is some mitigation, too. The sarge is unlikely to wound, much less kill, the bloodthirster. Therefore the bloodthirster and the entire squad are basically tarpitting each other until either horrible rolls kills the bloodthirster, the guard fail their -1 leadership tests, or the game ends. Finally, if the thirster has them tarpitted, then they cannot overwatch if, say, a unit of bloodletters or daemonettes charges in.

Voodoo_Chile wrote:An argument has been made that there is nothing in the Challenge rules which stops wounds inflicted on a character from overflowing to the squad.

I'm still on the fence but here's the link
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/459779.page

Overflow discussion continues in that area with a lot more detailed replies, its gonna be contentious!

This could be fixed (for Greater Demons anyway) IF when the chaos codex comes out, they define Greater Deamons as Monstrous Creatures and not as characters.

You guys are assuming that the rules for allocating wounds no longer applies. The challenge does not make a separate combat, bloodthirster will still damage the rest of the unit.

No. By the rules as written, the Blood Thirster and the character it is fighting in the challenge can only allocate wounds to one another.

I know it's lame. But that's what the rules say until GW fixes them.

My group of friends are house ruling it.

If a monstrous creature denies the challenge...it doesn't give a s***. As a monstrous freakin' creature, it can choose to ignore Mr. Honorable and just sweep a massive claw in his direction. While plowing forward into a bunch of squishies. I'm sure most monstrous creatures wouldn't even hear Mr. Honorable at all.

It's as simple as that.

Vindicare-Obsession wrote:yup yup yup. On the note of "I dont see why challenge wounds cant overflow into a unit" this is because a challgee is considered to be in bc with the challenger only. Since characters must be in bc to allocate wounds to a unit he cannot allocate wounds to them.

A captain is a character that can be challenged, but he's just part of the squad. You don't have to "allocate" wounds to the other marines, you attack the captain and inflict x wounds on the marine squad, allocated to the captain first because he's the only one in base. Then proceed with wound allocation as normal?

Also, what about Ork Nob blobs? They are all Characters now too. Necron Royal Court, Eldar Warlocks, Grey Knight Paladins..and there are more.

Say a Nob squad of 10 assaults a Bloodthirster, will that hold the Bloodthirster for 10 turns???

You guys have not take into account "Moral Support" a 50 man blob of gaurdsmen would generate 9-10 re-rolls for the srg if the thirster was alone.

WhoopieMonster wrote:You guys have not take into account "Moral Support" a 50 man blob of gaurdsmen would generate 9-10 re-rolls for the srg if the thirster was alone.

The Bloodthirster goes first.

And he's a monstrous creature, meaning no saves allowed. (or is that he has a power weapon, idk, never play against MCs...)

Grugknuckle wrote:No. By the rules as written, the Blood Thirster and the character it is fighting in the challenge can only allocate wounds to one another.

There's no rule that says such a thing.

Grugknuckle wrote:No. By the rules as written, the Blood Thirster and the character it is fighting in the challenge can only allocate wounds to one another.

I know it's lame. But that's what the rules say until GW fixes them.

Please show the rule that says that....

It says no one else can allocate wounds to the challenger/gee... it does not say what you are claiming.

A challenge can be issued every turn correct? So the IG will essentially lose 2 models per game turn.

Also I would think that while the MC is sitting there chewing through heroes a smaller squad of bloodletters could charge in and eat through some of the bystanders that are stuck watching their leaders get eaten. They won't risk getting mowed down either since the IG are already engaged and unable to shoot.

GreyChaos wrote:A challenge can be issued every turn correct? So the IG will essentially lose 2 models per game turn.

Also I would think that while the MC is sitting there chewing through heroes a smaller squad of bloodletters could charge in and eat through some of the bystanders that are stuck watching their leaders get eaten. They won't risk getting mowed down either since the IG are already engaged and unable to shoot.

Page 64 of the BRB, right under "issuing a challenge" and in bold

Only one challenge can be issued per close combat - the side whose turn it is has the opportunity to issue the challenge first.

So this whole thread is moot. Kommisar challenges Blood Thirster, BloodThirster shreds Kommisar. Next round, Blood Thirster eats many guardsmen.

Unless the Sgt challenges, then the BT kills a bunch of guardsmen, which have a ld9 rerollable test. Then another challenge, etc.

The positioning of the BT is the key, as if he can charge into the squad in a way that means that the Characters cannot get into combat, then he avoids the issue.

Grugknuckle wrote:
Only one challenge can be issued per close combat - the side whose turn it is has the opportunity to issue the challenge first.

Right. So the other side gets to issue challenges after. This thread isn't "moot" at all.