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I'm not completely sold on the argument against being able to use FnP. If the effects of ID are truly ignored, then how can it prevent FnP? Hopefully they FAQ this and it just goes away.

coredump wrote:As for DSing....

Declaring what mode you are in does not alleviate the requirement to move 12"/18"

If you enter from board edge and 'declare' you are swooping, you still need to move 12"/18"

If you enter from DS and declare you are swooping, you still need to move 12". Since you can't; you have broken the rules, and cannot do that. Or a flyer can, but then it crashes.

Except, when you come in from deepstrike you count as having moved at cruising speed, so that's a non issue. Also, the doom scythe can deepstrike but it does not have the "hover" mode. Are you saying they made a model that can deepstrike, but would kill itself?


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Wrakkar wrote:Pg 35, Feel No Pain
"Feel No Pain rolls cannot be made against unsaved wounds that inflict instant death."

Pg.16, Instant Death
"If a model suffers an unsaved wound from an attack [Strength= 2xToughness or force weapon], it is reduced to 0 wounds and removed as a casualty.

Pg. 38, Instant Death
"Unsaved wounds inflicted [by this rule] automatically inflict instant death."

Pg 35, Eternal Warrior
"Immune to the effects of instant death."

Therefore, ID is when the model is auto-killed by a wound, as per "reduced to 0 wounds". This is ignored by EW.
FnP can be taken.

I think this is exactly the way it works.

Not it says "the effects of", not "the rule itself".
The ID wound's effect (dropping the model to 0 wounds) is negated. We agree on this, right?
The disagreement is here: Does negating all the effects of ID negate the fact that the wound inflicts ID? I say no, and therefore no FNP saves may be taken.

FNP can not be taken for christ's sake.

REGARDLESS if you're immune to dying instantly, the wound is still double your toughness, therefore, an ID wound.

THE DIFFERENCE is you just don't die instantly to it, you take 1 wound instead, but the properties of the wound are the same, thus negating FNP.



TL;DR stop trying to break the god damned game.

What does "TL;DR" mean?

BronzeJon wrote:FNP can not be taken for christ's sake.

REGARDLESS if you're immune to dying instantly, the wound is still double your toughness, therefore, an ID wound.

THE DIFFERENCE is you just don't die instantly to it, you take 1 wound instead, but the properties of the wound are the same, thus negating FNP.

Um... question? Isn't ignoring FNP an effect of Instant Death? I mean, regardless of whether or not it's in the text of the Instant Death rule, isn't it true that: cause (wound inflicts Instant Death) --> effect (FNP saves cannot be taken)? So if a model ignores the effects of Instant Death, then there's no cause to deny them their FNP save, right?

Wrakkar wrote:Pg 35, Feel No Pain
"Feel No Pain rolls cannot be made against unsaved wounds that inflict instant death."

Pg.16, Instant Death
"If a model suffers an unsaved wound from an attack [Strength= 2xToughness or force weapon], it is reduced to 0 wounds and removed as a casualty.

Pg. 38, Instant Death
"Unsaved wounds inflicted [by this rule] automatically inflict instant death."

Pg 35, Eternal Warrior
"Immune to the effects of instant death."

Therefore, ID is when the model is auto-killed by a wound, as per "reduced to 0 wounds". This is ignored by EW.
FnP can be taken.

This seems to be the correct reading as per the rules, I think.

Um... question? Isn't ignoring FNP an effect of Instant Death? I mean, regardless of whether or not it's in the text of the Instant Death rule, isn't it true that: cause (wound inflicts Instant Death) --> effect (FNP saves cannot be taken)? So if a model ignores the effects of Instant Death, then there's no cause to deny them their FNP save, right?

No. ID merely states that models which suffer an unsaved wound with the ID rule or that have a strenght double the targets toughness inflict ID. Model's wounds are immediately reduced to zero.
FNP states that it may not be used against wounds which inflict instant death.
Eternal warrior negates the effects of ID.
The wound is still an ID wound, but the EW model ignores the effects, and only takes one wound. FNP, however, still may not be taken, as the wound still inflicts ID.

erick99 wrote:1) EW negates the effects of ID. True.
2) The wound is still an 'ID inflicting wound', but the model is spared from the effects by EW. True.
3) FNP is restricted to wounds that do not inflict instant death. True.
4) ID negates FNP because FNP, not ID, says so. True.

Therefore, we can reasonably conclude that 5) As the effects of ID are negated by EW, and negating FNP is not an effect of ID, (but rather of FNP itself,) then ID negates FNP on all models, even Eternal Warriors.

As such, as 1, 3, and 4 are known to be true, 5 is also true, but only if 2 is true as well. If 2 can be disproved, than 5 will be disproved as well.

This is my justification. As I said, disprove point 2, and point 5 is disproved as well. If 2 cannot be disproved, then point 5 remains true.

The effect of ID is being reduced to 0 wounds. A restriction on FNP is not being able to use it against ID causing wounds.

This was cleared up in the last edition so I would roll with that train of thought. A model with Et Warrior still could not take FNP b/c he recives ID but is immune to instantly dying. Anything else that triggers off of ID still triggers (Or dosent in this case)

I would have to agree, If you are immune to the effects to ID. Then you will be allowed to get a Fnp.

But being immune to the effects of ID does not mean the wound is not ID inflicting. Rather, the model does not lose all remaining wounds, even when suffering an unsaved wound which inflicts ID.

Here's an example of what I mean:
A melta gun is fired at a Stormraven from half range. The Stormraven has a special rule that prevents a second D6 being rolled to determine armor penetration. Hence, the Stormraven is "immune to the effects of melta" weapons. This does not change the fact that the shot has the melta rule-rather, the melta gun still inflicts a hit which would normally allow a second D6 to be rolled. The Stormraven's rule prevents the second D6 from being rolled, but does not change the fact that it was a melta hit.

As such, while Eternal Warriors are immune to the effects of instant death, the wound will still retain the ID infliction. Thus, FNP may not be taken.
Again, disprove point 2, and you will, imo, prove FNP may be taken.

I'm going to restate this as well

This argument came up in last edition of the rulebook. As it was ruled in last edition, a model with EW still lost FNP from an instant death weapon. You would be safest to follow that ruling into 6th.

erick99 wrote:But being immune to the effects of ID does not mean the wound is not ID inflicting. Rather, the model does not lose all remaining wounds, even when suffering an unsaved wound which inflicts ID.

Here's an example of what I mean:
A melta gun is fired at a Stormraven from half range. The Stormraven has a special rule that prevents a second D6 being rolled to determine armor penetration. Hence, the Stormraven is "immune to the effects of melta" weapons. This does not change the fact that the shot has the melta rule-rather, the melta gun still inflicts a hit which would normally allow a second D6 to be rolled. The Stormraven's rule prevents the second D6 from being rolled, but does not change the fact that it was a melta hit.

As such, while Eternal Warriors are immune to the effects of instant death, the wound will still retain the ID infliction. Thus, FNP may not be taken.
Again, disprove point 2, and you will, imo, prove FNP may be taken.

But it doesnt say it is immune to the effects of melta, just no more than 1d6 can be used for AP.



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Vindicare-Obsession wrote:I'm going to restate this as well

This argument came up in last edition of the rulebook. As it was ruled in last edition, a model with EW still lost FNP from an instant death weapon. You would be safest to follow that ruling into 6th.

Well if it says something about it last ed. Then I'm guessing it would still be carried over, But I guess all we can do is wait on the 6ed faq.

DaKKaLAnce wrote:
But it doesnt say it is immune to the effects of melta, just no more than 1d6 can be used for AP.
.........
Well if it says something about it last ed. Then I'm guessing it would still be carried over, But I guess all we can do is wait on the 6ed faq.

No, it is not a perfect analogy. And no more than 1D6 for AP is ignoring the effects of the melta rule.
..........
I would say until 6th edition FAQs come out, follow the ruling from 5th (which, officially, is no longer official), as it was an official GW ruling on the same issue.

Thats how I play it. I know it seems unfair to daemons (already having scat for saves) but it ensures more balanced units in other codecies (GK for instance)