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See the example in the BRB with the 5 Eldar charging 5 marines.

If you can see that, barring very few incredibly low 2d6 rolls, at least 1 of your models will have to enter/move through Difficult terrain as part of the charge; you are charging through difficult terrain.

Remeber, you are free to pre-measure in 6th edition; this is worked into the rules.

In your photo it is excessively clear that any roll of about 5" or more is going to force the Orks to move through terrain, therefore they will have to roll 3d6 and drop the highest(Charge through the terrain). Even if this roll is snake-eyes the rules have covered that eventuality and your charge has failed.

Also, why didn't the marines Overwatch those orks?

They forgot/were reloading/got distracted by the hawt Dark Eldar over the ridge

yakface wrote:

MJThurston wrote:The rules say you must move max distance to touch unengaged models. This does not mean you have to automatically go into terrain. This means that you touch as many bases with the models that you can touch. The other guys must move into b2b with your own guys and fill up all the space without going into terrain.

I could have a guy 13 inches from you but the closest is 6 inches away. Does that one guy force you to make a 3d6 check? Does a guy 12 inches away force this also? No....

If the closest guy to you is in cover then you have to roll 3d6. If the closest guy is not in cover than you are not forced to roll 3d6.

You keep saying this, but the rules very clearly disagree with you! So saying it over and over doesn't make it true. Please read the example diagram0 in the bottom left side of page 22 in the rulebook. It clearly shows Eldar Guardians that HAVE to roll for Difficult Terrain because they CAN potentially reach Space Marines on the other side of a crater, even though those 2 Guardians could easily move 'around' the crater and still wind up within 2" of other Guardians who would get into base contact without going through terrain.

So again, if models MIGHT be able to reach enemy models by going through terrain, then the unit MUST take a dangerous terrain test even if doing so may result in the charge failing.

In the in th photo in the rulebook with the eldar where it is obvious that you will have to move through terrain, then yes, the 3d6 is rolled. In the OP photo it is not obvious that a charge through cover would be require in all situations So in that case where you have moved half a unit ans suddenly found out of these 2 model will have to move through terrain,what do you do, reset everything and roll 3d6, or just go with the 2d6 charge range and pile in the back? This the OP question and so far the rule book does not provide for a clear answer in this case scenario. While you re correct in obvious situations you have not addressed this issue.

barnowl wrote:
In the in th photo in the rulebook with the eldar where it is obvious that you will have to move through terrain, then yes, the 3d6 is rolled. In the OP photo it is not obvious that a charge through cover would be require in all situations So in that case where you have moved half a unit ans suddenly found out of these 2 model will have to move through terrain,what do you do, reset everything and roll 3d6, or just go with the 2d6 charge range and pile in the back? This the OP question and so far the rule book does not provide for a clear answer in this case scenario. While you re correct in obvious situations you have not addressed this issue.

Yes, the rulebook example DOES precisely cover this situation. The two Guardians in the example could easily go around the crater and end up being within 2" of other Guardians that get into base contact without going into terrain.

The problem is, this doesn't follow the rules! Again, read the charging rules:

"If possible, a charging model must move into base contact with an enemy model within reach that is not already in base contact with another charging model."

The rules completely require you to move models into base contact with enemy models that haven't already been contacted. This forces models to move into cover whether you like it or not.

There is no wiggle room no matter how much you may not like it, you MUST try to get into base with as many models as possible which means you MUST move through terrain which means you MUST take the difficult terrain test.

yakface wrote:

barnowl wrote:
In the in th photo in the rulebook with the eldar where it is obvious that you will have to move through terrain, then yes, the 3d6 is rolled. In the OP photo it is not obvious that a charge through cover would be require in all situations So in that case where you have moved half a unit ans suddenly found out of these 2 model will have to move through terrain,what do you do, reset everything and roll 3d6, or just go with the 2d6 charge range and pile in the back? This the OP question and so far the rule book does not provide for a clear answer in this case scenario. While you re correct in obvious situations you have not addressed this issue.

Yes, the rulebook example DOES precisely cover this situation. The two Guardians in the example could easily go around the crater and end up being within 2" of other Guardians that get into base contact without going into terrain.

The problem is, this doesn't follow the rules! Again, read the charging rules:

"If possible, a charging model must move into base contact with an enemy model within reach that is not already in base contact with another charging model."

The rules completely require you to move models into base contact with enemy models that haven't already been contacted. This forces models to move into cover whether you like it or not.

There is no wiggle room no matter how much you may not like it, you MUST try to get into base with as many models as possible which means you MUST move through terrain which means you MUST take the difficult terrain test.

Yak I understand what your trying to say and am not arguing that. I think you are missing our question, what happens if for what ever reason,bad model movement, mistake in premeasure, rolling to much charge distance, does not matter why exactly, what do you do if it becomes apparent only after you have started moving models that one would have to move through terrain.

barnowl wrote:
Yak I understand what your trying to say and am not arguing that. I think you are missing our question, what happens if for what ever reason,bad model movement, mistake in premeasure, rolling to much charge distance, does not matter why exactly, what do you do if it becomes apparent only after you have started moving models that one would have to move through terrain.

This is the exact same problem that existed in the previous edition, but given that pre-measuring is allowed now it is even less of a problem.

All you have to do is imagine that your unit rolls its maximum movement and then start working through the charge in your mind. If it looks even remotely likely that one or models may have to move through cover in order to meet the charge requirements if they rolled a max-move then you have to take the test.

Or in other words, when in doubt, you have to take the test.

yakface wrote:[
This is the exact same problem that existed in the previous edition, but given that pre-measuring is allowed now it is even less of a problem.

All you have to do is imagine that your unit rolls its maximum movement and then start working through the charge in your mind. If it looks even remotely likely that one or models may have to move through cover in order to meet the charge requirements if they rolled a max-move then you have to take the test.

Or in other words, when in doubt, you have to take the test.

I can see what you about pre-measuring. I am still getting used to that idea and what the ramifications of all these random move distances are going to do.

How is this for a base -line rule of thumb:

If your second row of troopers are at least 6" away from your opponent's second row of troopers(as the crow flies); and you can see that at least 1 model(any row) will have to move through Difficult terrain to contact the opposing second row; then you are charging through difficult terrain, and must take that test for your unit

Kommissar Kel wrote:How is this for a base -line rule of thumb:

If your second row of troopers are at least 6" away from your opponent's second row of troopers(as the crow flies); and you can see that at least 1 model(any row) will have to move through Difficult terrain to contact the opposing second row; then you are charging through difficult terrain, and must take that test for your unit

You must use the maximum charge range possible for the unit, because if you were to roll that amount you can end being forced to move into terrain, which would cause the unit to move through cover.

So basically you have to look at the worst possible scenario (max charge range) and if that will force any models into terrain, then you have to take the test.

yakface wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:How is this for a base -line rule of thumb:

If your second row of troopers are at least 6" away from your opponent's second row of troopers(as the crow flies); and you can see that at least 1 model(any row) will have to move through Difficult terrain to contact the opposing second row; then you are charging through difficult terrain, and must take that test for your unit

You must use the maximum charge range possible for the unit, because if you were to roll that amount you can end being forced to move into terrain, which would cause the unit to move through cover.

So basically you have to look at the worst possible scenario (max charge range) and if that will force any models into terrain, then you have to take the test.

I am not sure I agree with that.
In an event where your furthest back model is 12" from the only model in the enemy unit you can make base-to-base with; but you will have to move through terrain to get there...

You have a less than 0.5%(0.463%) chance(that is a 1-in-216 to achieve) to roll the triple 6's required for that 1 model to need to move through terrain.

This is why I went with a Base-line Rule of thumb.
If your situation fits where rolling average(or just above Average) on 2d6/3d6-keep the lowest will not move you through terrain; then you really have no worries; roll your assault range normally and if that roll would force a model through terrain(you should be able to work this out before moving the initial model), then re-roll as a Difficult-charge(Since the rule do not cover that eventuality)

Yakface, the diagram in the book is faulty, because in the situation that's illustrated it is possible to achieve full base-to-base maximization without going through difficult terrain.

This is a 1:1 reproduction of the diagram in question, with charge distances extrapolated by comparison to the 20mm bases appearing in the picture.

Black Guardian automatically moves first, being the closest model. Purple moves next, staying only just in coherency with black. Yellow moves next, staying only just in coherency with purple. Blue moves next, coherent with yellow. Red moves last, and is coherent with two fellows.

Altruizine wrote:Yakface, the diagram in the book is faulty, because in the situation that's illustrated it is possible to achieve full base-to-base maximization without going through difficult terrain.

This is a 1:1 reproduction of the diagram in question, with charge distances extrapolated by comparison to the 20mm bases appearing in the picture.

Black Guardian automatically moves first, being the closest model. Purple moves next, staying only just in coherency with black. Yellow moves next, staying only just in coherency with purple. Blue moves next, coherent with yellow. Red moves last, and is coherent with two fellows.

So what if a diagram is technically inaccurate, it is designed to illustrate a point and the point it illustrates is that models do have to assault through cover as dictated by the rules.

I get that this concept might be hard for some to grasp but this is exactly he same as 5th edition, the only change now being that all charge moves are random.

Again, the rules are crystal, crystal clear: charging models MUST attempt to get into base contact with enemy models that have not already been contacted. There is no wiggle room, there is no choice. They MUST go through terrain if it will get them into base contact with such an enemy model, so therefore you must go ahead and take the difficult terrain test if such a thing would be possible with the unit's maximum range move.




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Kommissar Kel wrote:
I am not sure I agree with that.
In an event where your furthest back model is 12" from the only model in the enemy unit you can make base-to-base with; but you will have to move through terrain to get there...

You have a less than 0.5%(0.463%) chance(that is a 1-in-216 to achieve) to roll the triple 6's required for that 1 model to need to move through terrain.

This is why I went with a Base-line Rule of thumb.
If your situation fits where rolling average(or just above Average) on 2d6/3d6-keep the lowest will not move you through terrain; then you really have no worries; roll your assault range normally and if that roll would force a model through terrain(you should be able to work this out before moving the initial model), then re-roll as a Difficult-charge(Since the rule do not cover that eventuality)

It doesn't matter how unlikely the situation is, the point is that it CAN happen and therefore you MUST make the difficult terrain roll.

The rules do not support an "If it can happen".

The rules clearly state an: "If it does happen"

Kommissar Kel wrote:The rules do not support an "If it can happen".

The rules clearly state an: "If it does happen"

This is precisely the same conundrum as 5th edition and the only solution is to take the test ahead of time. Otherwise you start your charge move and then you discover that you have to move a model through terrain at which point...what do you do? If you roll difficult terrain and it causes a failed charge now you're supposed to move your models back to their starting positions?

It doesn't work any other way.

yakface wrote:
Again, the rules are crystal, crystal clear: charging models MUST attempt to get into base contact with enemy models that have not already been contacted. There is no wiggle room, there is no choice. They MUST go through terrain if it will get them into base contact with such an enemy model, so therefore you must go ahead and take the difficult terrain test if such a thing would be possible with the unit's maximum range move.

Yes but they have a better chance of following that rule if they follow Altruizines charge plan .

Thanatos_elNyx wrote:
Yes but they have a better chance of following that rule if they follow Altruizines charge plan .

Huh?

The diagram is there to show a unit charging through terrain. So we know that the unit *is* charging through terrain whether it appears like they shouldn't or not.

The point of the diagram is to show that the unit has to move through terrain because the models across the crater HAVE to attempt to engage the marines on the other side. That is what the diagram is displaying.

yakface wrote:

Thanatos_elNyx wrote:
Yes but they have a better chance of following that rule if they follow Altruizines charge plan .

Huh?

The diagram is there to show a unit charging through terrain. So we know that the unit *is* charging through terrain whether it appears like they shouldn't or not.

The point of the diagram is to show that the unit has to move through terrain because the models across the crater HAVE to attempt to engage the marines on the other side. That is what the diagram is displaying.

My problem with this is that it isn't supported by the RAW (the literal rules as written, in text form, not including the diagram [which I still find confusing and fundamentally under-explained).

So what happens if you can potentially get into maximized b2b without crossing difficult terrain, by rolling a certain distance on the regular charge test? Let's say a unit of 5 models wants to charge another unit of 20 models. If they can roll a 10" charge they won't need to cross DT to maximize base-to-base, but a 6" charge through DT will also accomplish maximized base-to-base. Are you asserting that you need to take the test anyway, if the minimum distance for b2b takes you through DT? Where in the rules does that appear, other than in the completely unexplained and unjustified diagram? None of the actual words in the sentences that form the paragraphs that constitute the rules indicate that.

Here's another diagram, which I made for Warseer when I posted a thread on this topic last week.

What happens here? Is a DT test necessary, in your opinion? Note that it's possible to hand-wave this example away by proposing that the units are so close that even a roll of snake eyes would bring them into contact, but that's missing the point. Just imagine the image is blown up, and the distance between the units increased (and the target unit has more models in it, if that's necessary to accommodate the enlarged footprint they may have).

Altruizine wrote:
My problem with this is that it isn't supported by the RAW (the literal rules as written, in text form, not including the diagram [which I still find confusing and fundamentally under-explained).

So what happens if you can potentially get into maximized b2b without crossing difficult terrain, by rolling a certain distance on the regular charge test? Are you asserting that you need to take the test anyway, if the minimum distance for b2b takes you through DT?

Here's another diagram, which I made for Warseer when I posted a thread on this topic last week.

What happens here? Is a DT test necessary, in your opinion? Btw, it's possible to hand-wave this example away by noting that the units are so close that even a roll of snake eyes would bring them into contact, but that's missing the point. Just imagine the image is blown up, and the distance between the units increased (and the target unit has more models in it, if that's necessary to accommodate the situation).

Again, any result you roll that may end up causing your models to have to move through terrain in order to satisfy the charging rules means you need to take a difficult terrain test.

So yes, IMHO that would require a difficult terrain test because you don't know what you're going to roll for your move and some rolls will end up with your models having to move through terrain in that situation.

Make a mental note of how far each model has moved, and if it turns out you do need to difficult terrain you can roll the extra dice and move models back if it turns out that the charge has failed.
It's actually easier than in 5th, though it's still a dick rule.


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Altruizine wrote:
Here's another diagram, which I made for Warseer when I posted a thread on this topic last week.

What happens here? Is a DT test necessary, in your opinion? Note that it's possible to hand-wave this example away by proposing that the units are so close that even a roll of snake eyes would bring them into contact, but that's missing the point. Just imagine the image is blown up, and the distance between the units increased (and the target unit has more models in it, if that's necessary to accommodate the enlarged footprint they may have).

In that case, roll for your charge range - as long as the model that *could* assault through DT can reach a model (assuming the model he's trying to assault isn't engaged by the first moving model) then you're fine.
If that distance is NOT enough, then roll the extra dice.
Oh and if THAT model is the nearest model, then you'll you have to DT since the first model has to move the shortest possible route.

Ok I apologize. I made the mistake of taking 5th ed and warping it into 6th.

Page 21, clearly states "Moving charging models must not hold back or avoid terrain."

The old rule from my understanding was just the first guy couldn't avoid terrain.

So yes, you would have to roll 3d6 for any charge that would take you into terrain.

So the question is this...

How do you determine if you need to go into cover for a roll? The second closest guy is within 12 inches of someone in terrain? Because you have to touch max enemy models?

I'm asking this because of the following example. My closest guy is at 10 inches from the first guy he can touch but 11 inches from the guy in cover. The second closest guy is with in 12 inches of the closest enemy model but 13 inches from the guy in cover. Do I have to make a 3d6 roll? I can't touch the guy in cover with anyone but the closest model.

You determine, before you move, if a 12" move would require you to go through terrain in order to maximise your b2b models.

Thats it. however you want to determine it, do it. In 99% of times, like in 5th, this was easy to eyeball before hand.

You roll the 2d6. Keep in mind only your first two models would be able to attack in combat on a successful charge.

It's rules like these that makes tournaments hard as you have pay close attention to make sure your opponent isnt cheating.

All engaged models, not just those in b2b

Episode One in the series "Let's Make Sure Maelstrom808 Is Doing Charges Correctly." So let me see if I have this right.

Unit A charges Unit B (we'll ignore overwatch, assume they all miss)

If Unit A does not get at least 4", the charge will fail. If Unit A moves more than 6" it will be forced to charge through DT to satisfy the rules governing a charge.

Roll the charge distance:

- Charge distance roll 3". Charge fails, nothing is moved from Unit A.

- Charge distance rolls 5". No need to roll for DT, make assault moves as normal.

- Charge distance rolls 7". Roll for DT. DT rolls 3". Charge fails, nothing is moved from Unit A

- Charge distance rolls 7". Roll for DT. DT rolls 7". Make assault moves, reduce ini to one for moving through DT.

- Charge distance rolls 7". Roll for DT. DT rolls 5". Make assault moves, reduce ini to one, even though the unit did not actually move through DT?

I would say no on the last one, unless a model moved through difficult terrain.

Happyjew wrote:I would say no on the last one, unless a model moved through difficult terrain.

I think that's the way it "should" be. However taking the DT test is triggered by a model moving through DT. Can you really say that a model moved through DT, but at the same time didn't move through DT?


Schrodinger's Charge? Quantum Charging?

Testify wrote:Make a mental note of how far each model has moved, and if it turns out you do need to difficult terrain you can roll the extra dice and move models back if it turns out that the charge has failed.

Just to repeat that. If you follow this approach, you cannot go wrong.

Testify wrote:

Testify wrote:Make a mental note of how far each model has moved, and if it turns out you do need to difficult terrain you can roll the extra dice and move models back if it turns out that the charge has failed.

Just to repeat that. If you follow this approach, you cannot go wrong.

It still doesn't fix the above situation.

- Roll charge distance

- Start moving models

- One model moves into DT

- Roll DT test (it ends up being short enough that the model would have never of made it into DT, but far enough that you would still get to charge)

- Move back any models that you already have moved which would have moved more than allowed by the DT roll.

- Finish moving models, using the DT roll for their charge distance.

- Unit's attacks are resolved at what ini? It moved through DT, but at the same time did not move through DT.

Maelstrom808 wrote:

Testify wrote:

Testify wrote:Make a mental note of how far each model has moved, and if it turns out you do need to difficult terrain you can roll the extra dice and move models back if it turns out that the charge has failed.

Just to repeat that. If you follow this approach, you cannot go wrong.

It still doesn't fix the above situation.

- Roll charge distance

- Start moving models

- One model moves into DT

- Roll DT test (it ends up being short enough that the model would have never of made it into DT, but far enough that you would still get to charge)

- Move back any models that you already have moved which would have moved more than allowed by the DT roll.

- Finish moving models, using the DT roll for their charge distance.

- Unit's attacks are resolved at what ini? It moved through DT, but at the same time did not move through DT.

If it made a DT test, it strikes at I1.

Testify, the only time you attack at Init 1 in regards to DT, is when you actually move through it.