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GreyHamster wrote:In the context of the GK codex, the Nemesis Dreadknight and Purgation squad aren't particularly good. Mainly because fourTL S8 shots is so much better than them it's pretty much no-contest for the slot. That's another thing that creates bad units, occupying the same force org slot as a unit that fills the same general role but does so better.

Strictly speaking, there is no such thing as a completely useless unit, but there are units that actively make your army worse. They do that by denaturing the core goal or strengths of your codex (e.g. banshees, overcosted melee unit in a shooting codex, Farsight restricting all the good units in the codex to 0-1) or consuming points you could've spent on something that does the same job but better (why get scout bikers when you can buy bikers with the same movement, access to melta, and skill 4).

You're crazy. Dreadknights are definitly a competitive unit. Not all GK lists spam Psyflemen, not to mention that you can take Venerables which are Elite not Heavy Support if you really need Psyflenought support.

Especially with the new rules, DKs are crazy awsome. Challanges let them stay safe from hidden PFs, power weapons took a hit so their 2+ save is much better, and their weapon upgrades make thm very killy. With sword a DK is Str10 with rerolls on all his Melee attacks. The sword says "the bearer gets rerolls..." unlike all other Nemisis weapons which have language that demands you actually use the weapon in combat to get the benifit. The sword just needs to be on your person to give the benifit.

DarknessEternal wrote:He didn't ask for a list of useless units. He asked why there are useless units.

There are two answers:
1. Edition changes to rules negate what was previously useful.
2. Bad design.

Yeah, I'd expound. The rules edition changes is obvious (no longer being able to assault out of reserves thanks to the new rules edition made several units rather pointless).

The bad design one is strange. The feeling I get is that there is a secret formula to determine how much things cost that's usually pretty good (no matter how much whiners whine), but sometimes comes up with questionable units. Take the guard eradicator. Its points cost makes sense, a certain amount of points for the russ chassis, a certain amount of points for its S and Ap, etc., but it's like they didn't take a step back and ask themselves "yes, but who would ever actually field one of these?" Its job is just so much better done by other things in the codex, generally for better, and generally for cheaper.

I'd also add a couple more.

3. The unit has too niche of a role. There are plenty of things that do what they do just a little bit better than other things in their codex, but at a great cost compared to killing other stuff. Usually specialized units are better, but it's possible to become overspecialized - a unit being left with no set of circumstances on the table where it will actually be useful in most games. For example, a basilisk will probably always have something at least vaguely worth shooting at, no matter who you're up against. It is very possible, however, to make a medusa an expensive paperweight by doing nothing more than showing up with a horde army.

4. The unit has too low of killing power for its cost. Of course, you have to be really careful with this one, as 40k does not judge units solely by what they are able to kill. Ogryn still have a place in a guard army, for example. That said, there are some units which are just too support and just not quite good enough on their own to be worthwhile. Also, there are some units that really are more judged by what they kill (like things in the HS slot), and if they're not quite killy enough over the course of a game, this can also be a reason to shelve them. Generally, but not always, this is a result of #1 above.

Ailaros wrote:
The bad design one is strange. The feeling I get is that there is a secret formula to determine how much things cost that's usually pretty good (no matter how much whiners whine), but sometimes comes up with questionable units. Take the guard eradicator. Its points cost makes sense, a certain amount of points for the russ chassis, a certain amount of points for its S and Ap, etc., but it's like they didn't take a step back and ask themselves "yes, but who would ever actually field one of these?" Its job is just so much better done by other things in the codex, generally for better, and generally for cheaper.

Back in 3rd there was a open formula for making custom vehicles with whatever armor and weapons you wanted. It got pretty out of hand with SM taking fast skimming transports with paper armor so people stopped giving consent. You could make horrible vehicles though, if you wanted you could have an AV14 all around with BS5 shooting nothing more than a storm bolter. In fact you didnt even need to give it any weapons.

The erradicator is from FW and they tend to make the model first and then come up with the rules later which is why some of their stuff is so horrible.

I would like to offer a differing opinion on Chaos Spawn. Now that No Retreat no longer exists, a couple of them make for a cheap way to interrupt incoming assault troops if you're playing a shooty CSM army.

Take Bezerkers, you'll have a better hitting unit, more attacks in general, an actual decent save, fearless, and hits at the same if it gets the charge, not to mention with the Skull Champion you can have power weapon attacks or Power Fist attacks.

Ailaros wrote:
4. The unit has too low of killing power for its cost. Of course, you have to be really careful with this one, as 40k does not judge units solely by what they are able to kill. Ogryn still have a place in a guard army, for example. That said, there are some units which are just too support and just not quite good enough on their own to be worthwhile. Also, there are some units that really are more judged by what they kill (like things in the HS slot), and if they're not quite killy enough over the course of a game, this can also be a reason to shelve them. Generally, but not always, this is a result of #1 above.

Isn't this just Bad Design?

But you are correct in adding "things that only are useless because something else in their army list is the same but better".

As an example, the answer to the question "when are Banshees better than Harlequins?" is "only when being hit by AP5 or worse weapons that ignore cover saves from within 14 inches". Which is pretty dang limited.

Banshees actually suffer greatly from this. In a vacuum, they're ok. Within their codex, they are garbage, for several reasons.

"Useless" tends to get bandied around more then its really applicable by players that simply don't understand the roll a certain unit can play.

That being said their are still some units that are pretty hard to justify. Pyrovore for instance primarily because the one roll it does semi ok at, digging troops/footbased HS out of cover, Ymyrgals do better, and are in the same FoC.

However I use both Mandrakes and Flayed Ones to great effect, so I tend to snicker a bit to myself when I see all the perceived hate against those. Some people just don't understand the strategic value of Infiltrating/Outflanking units, so you will often see units with such capabilities undervalued. Then you see silly things posted like "Mandrakes can't kill guard"...which just doesn't make since at all but other people see stuff like that and believe it.

Exergy wrote:

kitch102 wrote:Kitch102 jumps to the mandrake defense again!

In a nutshell: use 'em to tie up your opponents most worrisome gun(s) to ensure your boats make it to the opponents board edge. They can basically open up a whole new avenue of approach for you if used correctly.

I've used them against Tau like this to very good effect. Took them against nids too, though honestly forgot they were there and then couldn't catch up with anything

they might be ok against tau as they can actually beat tau in CC, but they cant beat guardsmen.

They don't have to take on troops - they can get stuck in to a tank, forcing it to move (potentially out of cover for dark lances to take down), or even just take some panic shots away from your more valuable, more dangerous troops so they arrive unscathed.

The real strength of the mandrakes is that people don't use them. Whoever's going against the DE is expecting to see rows of venoms, raiders, ravagers, and razorwings arrayed in front of them, but they rarely ever expect a squad (no matter how small) to appear behind them. They turn to shoot, give you the aforementioned avenue of approach, and you roll them up like a carpet from one side of the board to the other, unit by unit, tank by tank.

Vanilla Marines Vanguard Veterans are pretty bad.

sisters repentia. can't get a transport, strike last, bad armor, high cost

SlaveToDorkness wrote:Most of the time people say a unit is "useless" because they haven't found a way to use them.

QFT

There are some useless units, but it is a term sometimes tacked onto units to mean "its a good unit, but this other unit in the same FoC slot is more cost effective/reliable, therefore rendering it obsolete" (not useless)

in my opinion i am hard pressed to find a use for the vangaurd dreadnaught on occasion. if i remember correctly, its 50 points to make the enemy re-roll a die to hit.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
I am hard pressed to find uses for venerable dreadnaughts,as they are just your basic dreadnaught that is slightly more survivable due to a special rule. you could get almost 2 dreadnaughts for the price of one of these things.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
sorry. i was having post issues. please disregard the redundancy of this post.

farrowking37 wrote:in my opinion i am hard pressed to find a use for the vangaurd dreadnaught on occasion. if i remember correctly, its 50 points to make the enemy re-roll a die to hit.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
I am hard pressed to find uses for venerable dreadnaughts,as they are just your basic dreadnaught that is slightly more survivable due to a special rule. you could get almost 2 dreadnaughts for the price of one of these things.

For vanilla marines, its a re-roll on damage, armor upgrade, and additional weaponry, I believe.

Dark Angels just grt the re-roll, and its worth it.

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:

farrowking37 wrote:in my opinion i am hard pressed to find a use for the vangaurd dreadnaught on occasion. if i remember correctly, its 50 points to make the enemy re-roll a die to hit.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
I am hard pressed to find uses for venerable dreadnaughts,as they are just your basic dreadnaught that is slightly more survivable due to a special rule. you could get almost 2 dreadnaughts for the price of one of these things.

For vanilla marines, its a re-roll on damage, armor upgrade, and additional weaponry, I believe.

Dark Angels just grt the re-roll, and its worth it.

I think they have a slightly better front armor as well now that i think about it.
but honestly the basic dreadnaught can do pretty much anything the venerable one can do, and if i remember correctly, there are more upgrade options on the basic dreadnaught.

Pyrovore
Lictor
Genestealer (no assault from reserve, ymgarl time)
Tunneling Rippers (promptly eat themselves)

So, one question: can we agree on what we all think is the single most useless unit / model / character, in the entire 40k game?

Chaos Spawn

Grey Templar wrote:Chaos Spawn

Everything has a use-I'll wait while you find one for spawn. I already have. I'd say the Ethereal is still worthless, as everyone keeps choosing to ignore the wording of the rule (unless FAQ changed it): all units that test and pass after he dies gain the bonuses. If you don't test in a vehicle, you don't take chance to run, you don't get bonus. If they fixed this, I'm wrong and the Ethereal just became decent.

Exergy wrote:

Ailaros wrote:
The bad design one is strange. The feeling I get is that there is a secret formula to determine how much things cost that's usually pretty good (no matter how much whiners whine), but sometimes comes up with questionable units. Take the guard eradicator. Its points cost makes sense, a certain amount of points for the russ chassis, a certain amount of points for its S and Ap, etc., but it's like they didn't take a step back and ask themselves "yes, but who would ever actually field one of these?" Its job is just so much better done by other things in the codex, generally for better, and generally for cheaper.

Back in 3rd there was a open formula for making custom vehicles with whatever armor and weapons you wanted. It got pretty out of hand with SM taking fast skimming transports with paper armor so people stopped giving consent. You could make horrible vehicles though, if you wanted you could have an AV14 all around with BS5 shooting nothing more than a storm bolter. In fact you didnt even need to give it any weapons.

The erradicator is from FW and they tend to make the model first and then come up with the rules later which is why some of their stuff is so horrible.

Me and my friend's used to use the vehicle design rules. Until I noticed bolters only cost 2 points to add. So when the 'Predator Bolt Thrower' showed up with 100 bolters on it, suddenly people decided the vehicle design rules weren't such a good idea...

Oddly, two units I would have nominated in previous threads, have suddenly got better. Previously, I nominated three units as not only being useless, but make an army worse. Ethereals, Mogul Kamir, and Bjorn the Fell-Handed. Well, now Rage isn't stupid anymore, so Mogul is ok. Now Bjorn has been FAQed, he's much less of a liability if he dies, typically only giving away 1VP. Ethereals however, are still worse than useless. So they get my vote. Having your army run away turn one because the IG bombarded you with artillery is not fun.

No mention of Furies yet? They offer nothing you can't get from Flesh Hounds for the same points.

Well, Falcons were ruling the sky in the 4th ed. Their value dropped in the 5th and now they are almost completely useless - at least, holofields are a waste of points. They can still be used as gunboats able to shoot 2 heavy weapons after moving 12''. A bit less for an expensive tank that cannot contest objectives anymore.

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:

farrowking37 wrote:in my opinion i am hard pressed to find a use for the vangaurd dreadnaught on occasion. if i remember correctly, its 50 points to make the enemy re-roll a die to hit.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
I am hard pressed to find uses for venerable dreadnaughts,as they are just your basic dreadnaught that is slightly more survivable due to a special rule. you could get almost 2 dreadnaughts for the price of one of these things.

For vanilla marines, its a re-roll on damage, armor upgrade, and additional weaponry, I believe.

Dark Angels just grt the re-roll, and its worth it.

For codex marines the armor and upgrades are the same. You are paying 60 points for the re-roll and WS/BS 5. As most of the weapon options are twin linked, I think it's a bit of a waste, but not useless.

Ironclads are the ones with more armor (and far from useless)

Venerable Dreadnought's reroll ability(its the damage chart) its slightly less useful because of Hull Points, but it is very useful nontheless.

Statistically, its almost identicle to a 4+ cover save against permanant damage(hull points aside)

Its worth the 60 points, but your army might use those points better elsewhere. It really depends on what you want to run.

Possibly ork kommando's as they cannot assault turn 1 so IG, tau, SM etc. will shoot them to bits

Tod wrote:Possibly ork kommando's as they cannot assault turn 1 so IG, tau, SM etc. will shoot them to bits

I wept in a most unmanly fashion upon reading that particular rule change. I love my Kommandos. Even without Snikrot they were all sorts of fun. Now, we'll have to infiltrate and be really, really sneaky...........

Mr. Konrad wrote:

Tod wrote:Possibly ork kommando's as they cannot assault turn 1 so IG, tau, SM etc. will shoot them to bits

I wept in a most unmanly fashion upon reading that particular rule change. I love my Kommandos. Even without Snikrot they were all sorts of fun. Now, we'll have to infiltrate and be really, really sneaky...........

Really really really sneaky

Why does that make outflank useless? Every other deployment option is guaranteed to be shot at before you are allowed to assault, and it's been like that forever. Most allow you to be shot at from turn 1 on, at least with outflanking if you position well your weather one turn of fire and are assaulting the turn after you arrive.

Sorry, just a current pet peeve of mine. I just don't understand why people seem to think that this is a massive deal for say Kommandos (and the like), when a mob of boys is likely to get shot 2 or 3 times before it reaches assault.

Carnifex (don't judge until your are at the playing side of it) amd Pyrovores are so overpiced they are useless.

Tyranid Warriors (every S8 - 10 template in the game makes them a point leak in an already expensive codex)

Lictors.

Spore mines (if they cannot be ignored a rhino just park next to them)

Old One Eye.

Ripper/Flying Ripper Swarm
Imperial Guard missionaries and techpriests (with expensive servitors)
Tyranid Spore Mines are far worst than Pyrovores
Old One Eye (for the price at least)

Say something useful for any of these, I dare you!

Niiai wrote:Carnifex (don't judge until your are at the playing side of it) amd Pyrovores are so overpiced they are useless.

Tyranid Warriors (every S8 - 10 template in the game makes them a point leak in an already expensive codex)

Lictors.

Spore mines (if they cannot be ignored a rhino just park next to them)

Old One Eye.

I agree OOE, spore mines, and warriors are pretty limited. I disagree with Carnies and Lictors though. I the dakkafex stars is one of the bugs most intriguing HS's now, as they are solid anti-air and are just begging for buffage thrown there way (Endurance? Yes Please). 3 Lictors are a pretty decent unit, they were decent in 5th and only got better with their ability to reliably kill vehicles now.

ShadarLogoth wrote:Why does that make outflank useless? Every other deployment option is guaranteed to be shot at before you are allowed to assault, and it's been like that forever. Most allow you to be shot at from turn 1 on, at least with outflanking if you position well your weather one turn of fire and are assaulting the turn after you arrive.

Sorry, just a current pet peeve of mine. I just don't understand why people seem to think that this is a massive deal for say Kommandos (and the like), when a mob of boys is likely to get shot 2 or 3 times before it reaches assault.

Because they are twice as expensive as Boyz with a now overpriced character for the privilege of getting to be the biggest threat and wiped in one turn.