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DeathReaper wrote:"upgrades the fortification can have"

The gun is an upgrade to the Fortification.

This tells us the gun goes with the fortification.

But this upgrade is a separate model, not a part of the parent model that's being paid for.

My initial thoughts were that any gun emplacements should be attached/part of the fortifications you buy it for, but I guess its similar to having a unit with a dedicated transport. You can deploy them together, but you don't have to.

DeathReaper wrote:"upgrades the fortification can have"

The gun is an upgrade to the Fortification.

This tells us the gun goes with the fortification.

BRB Page 114, Fortifications, 3rd Paragraph:

"Composition. This tells you what terrain Pieces the fortification consists of. Most are simply a Large building or weapon, but others consist of several terrain Pieces."

BRB Page 105, Terrain, Battlefield Debris: "Gun Emplacement"

BRB Page 116, Fortifications, Imperial Bastion, Options, 2nd and 3rd choice under "add one of the following": "Gun Emplacement with Icarus Lascannon" and "Gun Emplacement with Quad Gun"

You can keep repeating that Options are added to the fortification, I will keep repeating that fortifications can be more than 1 piece of terrain.

If the guns and comm relay are upgrades to the model don't they have to be modeled ON the bastion? I.e. glued to or being actually part of?

Kommissar Kel wrote: I will keep repeating that fortifications can be more than 1 piece of terrain.

So they can never be set up within 3 inches of each other?

So you can never place the gun on top of the building since they are two fortifications.

That is clearly absurd.

DeathReaper wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote: I will keep repeating that fortifications can be more than 1 piece of terrain.

So they can never be set up within 3 inches of each other?

So you can never place the gun on top of the building since they are two fortifications.

That is clearly absurd.

See my first post.

Kommissar Kel wrote:So we have that the whole of a fortification counts as 1 terrain piece for Density; and that only separate "Pieces" for density abide by the "Must be 3" apart" rule(again page 120, bullet #3; which tells us a single terrain "Piece" could be up to 3 smaller pieces, and that each counted "Piece" are what abides the 3" limit).

Yeah; wherever you want to put the Gun Emplacement is valid, so long as it is at least 3" away from any other terrain piece aside from the parent fortification that purchased it.

Same piece, then it must be 1 piece, how are you deploying 1 piece in separate places?

I do not know any opponent that would let me do this, as having the gun far from the bastion is not an Gun Emplacement for that fortification.

yakface wrote:There is also no permission to place it anywhere else.

DeathReaper wrote:Same piece, then it must be 1 piece, how are you deploying 1 piece in separate places?

I do not know any opponent that would let me do this, as having the gun far from the bastion is not an Gun Emplacement for that fortification.

yakface wrote:There is also no permission to place it anywhere else.

Ok lets take this back to the first step. We need to define the terms.

1) A Fortification is defined as single choice from the Fortification section of the BRB (this includes options).
2) Fortifications are terrain. The type of terrain they are are defined in the entry listing.
3) A single Fortification choice can consist of many seperate pieces of terrain (For example a FoR is 4 pieces of terrain). They still count as a single Fortification.
4) Composition defines how peices of terrain must be deploied.
5) Weapons state what Emplaced Weapons the Fortification starts with and thier location.
6) Options state what modifications and additional peices of terrain can be bought to go with your basic Fortification choice. This defines points, type and location.

From this we can state:
A) That I can move all the HB on my Bastion to one side if I want.
B) That a can make my FoR with the 2 bunkers in the middle with a long walkway leading to the tower.
C) That I can not move my TL ILC on my FoR from one of the bunkers to the tower.
D) That when I deploy my Fortification I place it all at once even if it consists of several peices of terrain.

Can we at least agree on these points, bucause if we can't then we will just keep spinning our wheels.

Gloomfang wrote:From this we can state:
A) That I can move all the HB on my Bastion to one side if I want.
Can we at least agree on these points, bucause if we can't then we will just keep spinning our wheels.

No, as the Heavy bolters on the bastion are one on each facing.

P.97 wrote: The bastion also has several emplaced weapons:

a heavy bolter on each facing and an Icarus lascannon on the roof.

The Icarus lascannon goes on the roof.

DeathReaper wrote:

Gloomfang wrote:From this we can state:
A) That I can move all the HB on my Bastion to one side if I want.
Can we at least agree on these points, bucause if we can't then we will just keep spinning our wheels.

No, as the Heavy bolters on the bastion are one on each facing.

P.97 wrote: The bastion also has several emplaced weapons:

a heavy bolter on each facing and an Icarus lascannon on the roof.

The Icarus lascannon goes on the roof.

Can I get the rules quote on the HB? Under Bastion it lists "Weapons: 4 Heavy bolters (usually placed 1 per facing)" That gives me permission to place more than one per facing as long as I do not exceded 4 total. The model has nothing to do with the rules.


There is a requirement for TL ILC to be on a bunker and not the annex. I belive the tower is the annex, but I can not lay my hands on my rulebook becasue I am at work on it.

Do the rest of the points look ok though other than these two points?

Now we approach the land of modeling for advantage...

Gloomfang wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

Gloomfang wrote:From this we can state:
A) That I can move all the HB on my Bastion to one side if I want.
Can we at least agree on these points, bucause if we can't then we will just keep spinning our wheels.

No, as the Heavy bolters on the bastion are one on each facing.

P.97 wrote: The bastion also has several emplaced weapons:

a heavy bolter on each facing and an Icarus lascannon on the roof.

The Icarus lascannon goes on the roof.

Can I get the rules quote on the HB? Under Bastion it lists "Weapons: 4 Heavy bolters (usually placed 1 per facing)" That gives me permission to place more than one per facing as long as I do not exceded 4 total. The model has nothing to do with the rules.

There is a requirement for TL ILC to be on a bunker and not the annex. I belive the tower is the annex, but I can not lay my hands on my rulebook becasue I am at work on it.

Do the rest of the points look ok though other than these two points?

P. 97... It is in my quote

P.97 wrote: The bastion also has several emplaced weapons:

a heavy bolter on each facing and an Icarus lascannon on the roof.

DeathReaper wrote:P. 97... It is in my quote

P.97 wrote: The bastion also has several emplaced weapons:

a heavy bolter on each facing and an Icarus lascannon on the roof.

Your quoting Fortress of Redemption not the Bastion. Unless you are saying the Bastion has an ILC on it.

The paragraph is describing an example picture on the right:

This Imperial Bastion (right) is clearly as tough as buildings
come, so it's best played using an Armour Value of 14
(unless it is dilapidated, in which case it'd have Armour
Value 12).There are several Fire Points in the walls, and an
impressive set of battlements. There is one Access Point:
the door. The bastion also has several emplaced weapons:
a heavy bolter on each facing and an Icarus lascannon on
the roof.

Yet we can only buy the ILC as a gun emplacement, as per that other thread in YMDC.

Gloomfang wrote:Your quoting Fortress of Redemption not the Bastion. Unless you are saying the Bastion has an ILC on it.

No I am not, re-read the entry carefully.

Page 97 wrote:This Imperial Bastion (right) is clearly as tough as buildings come, so it's best played using an Arrnour Value of 14 (unless it is dilapidated, in which case it'd have Armour Value 12). There are several Fire Points in the walls, and an impressive set o battlements. There is one Access Point: the door. The bastion also has several emplaced weapons: a heavy bolter on each facing and an Icarus lascannon on the roof.

There are two ways of reading that last sentence.

1. The ILC is an Emplaced Weapon, not a Gun Emplacement as per the model rules found later in the book.
2. The Heavy Bolters are the only Emplaced Weapons, and the ILC was put on top of the Bastion.

Not that Page97 is describing a picture, it is not providing the rules for the Imperial Bastion.

DeathReaper wrote:

Page 97 wrote:This Imperial Bastion (right) is clearly as tough as buildings come, so it's best played using an Arrnour Value of 14 (unless it is dilapidated, in which case it'd have Armour Value 12). There are several Fire Points in the walls, and an impressive set o battlements. There is one Access Point: the door. The bastion also has several emplaced weapons: a heavy bolter on each facing and an Icarus lascannon on the roof.

You are reading fluff. Fluff is not rules.

The rules are what is listed with the entry for Bastion: points costs, terrain type, weapons and options.

Under the entry for Weapons it states: 4 Emplaced Heavy Bolters (Usually 1 per side). Those are the rules for weapon placement in a Bastion.

No wonder we are arguing if you are going off that section for the rules for Fortifications. They are THIS Imperial Bastion (the one pictured) and not ALL Bastions.

If you want to MFA go for it.

I do not think may people would play with such a model though.

What about for the 2 sides with 2 extra fire points? There's no requirement for those to be opposite on the model.

DeathReaper wrote:If you want to MFA go for it.

I do not think may people would play with such a model though.

Not going to do it. And if I was a WAAC tournament player then people would would have no choice.

I learned this the hard way last week when an IG player bought one in with 2 guns on the front and one side. He then placed it against the board edge near the back corner so no model could assault on that side.

I agree if you do it your TFG. But we are talking rules, not how I would play it.

EDIT: And it is not MFA. That would be modifiying a model for an advantage not given in the rules. This would be converting a model in line with the rules. But I know your feelings on this type of thing from the DCA thread.

Not sure the big advantage of backing it up against the table edge. Putting multiple guns on one side, I get. Oh well.

Well how you assemble your bastion is one of the social contracts between players. Unless you consider the assembly instructions rules.

Here are the rules for the bastion:

"Access Points & Fire Points: As per model.

Weapons: Four emplaced heavy bolters (typically
one on each facing)." P.116

We use the Citadel model as a base, so it has one on each facing.

If we model our own it needs to be the same as the citadel one, with the Heavy bolters in the same place.

If you model it differently TO's would not let it inot the tournament, and you should not play with it like that in a friendly game.

Why did they have to put typically there?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I assembled mine with the two firepointy sides adjacent. Of course, I had bought mine second hand and didn't have the instructions. Do the instructions actually specify?

pretre wrote:Why did they have to put typically there?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I assembled mine with the two firepointy sides adjacent. Of course, I had bought mine second hand and didn't have the instructions. Do the instructions actually specify?

Because they are planning on releasing a different, but similar, Bastion Fortification.

Ooh, good call. Or covering their butt for the chance that they do.

DeathReaper wrote:Here are the rules for the bastion:

"Access Points & Fire Points: As per model.

Weapons: Four emplaced heavy bolters (typically
one on each facing)." P.116

We use the Citadel model as a base, so it has one on each facing.

If we model our own it needs to be the same as the citadel one, with the Heavy bolters in the same place.

If you model it differently TO's would not let it inot the tournament, and you should not play with it like that in a friendly game.

No it does not have to be the same. It has to follow the same rules and have the same measurements (base size, hight and width). GW chose to make thier Bastion with one HB on each side. There is no requirement to have one per side.

If TO's choose to not allow it thats fine. The don't allow Allies, Fortifications, Mysterious Forests or Second FoCs as well. Doesn't mean that they are against the rules, it just means they are against the rules of the tourny. And I know that some TOs (who actuly follow the rules in the BRB) allow Bastions with moved emplaced weapons becasue they are allowed in the rules.

Gloomfang wrote:No it does not have to be the same. It has to follow the same rules and have the same measurements (base size, hight and width).

The placement and location of the weapons and fire points are all a part of the blueprint measurements of the building