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Captain Antivas wrote:

yakface wrote:One rule saying you're allowed to do something and another saying you are not allowed to do something are not conflicting when it comes to rules. One is a permission and the other is a restriction, and the restriction always takes precedence (unless the permission specifically mentions that it overrides the restriction).

What page is this on?

Its not on a page, its a basic part of how rules for every single game since the dawn of man are written.

Game rules cannot function if you do not have restrictions overriding permissions.


"This rule says I cannot move my models off the table"

"Ah yes, but this rule says I can move my models 6 inches, so therefore if moving a model 6 inches will take me off the table I can do it!"


The game fundamentally breaks. Restrictions must override permissions unless the permission explicitly mentions that it overrides a given restriction.

All games function exactly this way because they must.

Half of you are clearly overlooking the key word: "redeploy."

Checklist:
Can a flyer ever be deployed on board? No, they must always start in reserve.

And already this does not work. You are trying to redeploy something that cannot ever be deployed on the table. Unless rules explicitly state that you can override a generic game rule, then you may not do it.

End of this discussion.

Why would you even want to deploy your flyers on the table first turn? This just allows them to be shot up and if your opponent has flyers this is even worse because his flyers can simply come on and shoot yours down before you can do anything. It is almost always better to be in reserves for a flyer because then you can enter the game and quickly destroy any threats to your flyer before these threats can bring your flyer crashing down.

Emp. wrote:Half of you are clearly overlooking the key word: "redeploy."

Checklist:
Can a flyer ever be deployed on board? No, they must always start in reserve.

And already this does not work. You are trying to redeploy something that cannot ever be deployed on the table. Unless rules explicitly state that you can override a generic game rule, then you may not do it.

End of this discussion.

Oh wow, I was not aware that you had that kind of authority to just end a discussion. Forgive me for continuing it despite your claim.

The rule says you can take something from Reserves and bring it on the table. The game has begun so the Flyer started the game in Reserves. It is then redeployed on the table. Rules are satisfied.

Captain Antivas wrote:

Emp. wrote:Half of you are clearly overlooking the key word: "redeploy."

Checklist:
Can a flyer ever be deployed on board? No, they must always start in reserve.

And already this does not work. You are trying to redeploy something that cannot ever be deployed on the table. Unless rules explicitly state that you can override a generic game rule, then you may not do it.

End of this discussion.

Oh wow, I was not aware that you had that kind of authority to just end a discussion. Forgive me for continuing it despite your claim.

The rule says you can take something from Reserves and bring it on the table. The game has begun so the Flyer started the game in Reserves. It is then redeployed on the table. Rules are satisfied.

Relook the wording from Codex Necrons. The rule specifically states that redeployed units must still abide by the normal deployment rules governing the scenario. The normal rules for flyers says they must be in reserves. The Codex in this case supports flyers having to remain in reserves.

PanzerLeader wrote:
Relook the wording from Codex Necrons. The rule specifically states that redeployed units must still abide by the normal deployment rules governing the scenario. The normal rules for flyers says they must be in reserves. The Codex in this case supports flyers having to remain in reserves.

Agreed.

You'd also still have to abide by the normal restriction about half the units in your army starting on the table when moving stuff into or out of reserve with this ability. This is not a get-out-jail-free card that allows you to ignore the normal mission rules regarding deployment (including reserve limitations), this is simply an ability that lets you change your deployment within the existing mission framework.

Blood and Slaughter wrote:The C'tn rule states that 'after all forces have been deployed and all Scout moves made , , , redeploy this many [d3] units subject to the normal deployment rules for the mission

i think that means you can't pull flyers out of reserve because under normal deployment they must start in reserve.

Deployment rules for missions are listed on page 121 and reserve rules on page 124. Neither require flyers to be in reserve.
It is not a mission rule that prevents flyers from starting on the table, so the Necron restriction to Subject to the normal deployement rules for the mission doesn't apply.

To me, it looks like you can put a flyer on the table turn 1.
I don't know why you'd want to, but it looks possible.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:
Deployment rules for missions are listed on page 121 and reserve rules on page 124. Neither require flyers to be in reserve.
It is not a mission rule that prevents flyers from starting on the table, so the Necron restriction to Subject to the normal deployement rules for the mission doesn't apply.

To me, it looks like you can put a flyer on the table turn 1.
I don't know why you'd want to, but it looks possible.

-Matt

Again, it is very important to know that a restriction remains in place unless a permission explicitly says that it is overridden. The argument you are trying to make uses the same faulty logic that people used previously to try to claim that a unit with 'fleet' in 5th edition was allowed to assault after disembarking from a closed-topped vehicle if they ran because the rules for fleet said that a unit with that ability is allowed to assault even if it runs in the shooting phase.

But that was not the case then and it isn't the case now. Just because a rule allows units to be moved into or out of reserves does not override any restrictions that may exist for units to start the game in reserves, because it is possible to follow both rules without breaking either.


Just think if a marine or Tyranid character had access to this type of ability (not sure if they do without looking closely at the Allies matrix), would you somehow be claiming that Drop Pods can be deployed onto the table using it?


But again, the basic premise of rules writing is that a restriction overrides a permission or else the entire set of game rules destroys itself.

The C'Tan ability gives the permission by allowing you to move units into and out of reserves. Both rules are satisifed. The flyer starts the game in reserve, and is moved out of reserve by the C'tan ability, which takes place after the game has begun.

NecronLord3 wrote:The C'Tan ability gives the permission by allowing you to move units into and out of reserves. Both rules are satisifed. The flyer starts the game in reserve, and is moved out of reserve by the C'tan ability, which takes place after the game has begun.

Not according to the actual rules, which define the Game as being a number of turns. Deplopyment is not part of the Game

The battle has begun, but not the game.

The rules do not say that. You are assuming that because the number of turns are defined by Game Turns, that that defines when the game begins. I do not believe that once units have begun to actually move, like scouts, that anyone can argue the game has not begun. The actual beginning and end of the game are to entirely clearly defined.

NecronLord3 wrote:The rules do not say that. You are assuming that because the number of turns are defined by Game Turns, that that defines when the game begins. I do not believe that once units have begun to actually move, like scouts, that anyone can argue the game has not begun. The actual beginning and end of the game are to entirely clearly defined.

Wrong. Again, read the actrual rules on page 122, which defines GAME LENGTH as a number of GAME TURNS

Note that The Battle starts before the first turn, however the Game starts on Game Turn 1.

If you disagree some actual rules would be helpful to the discussion

NecronLord3 wrote:The C'Tan ability gives the permission by allowing you to move units into and out of reserves. Both rules are satisifed. The flyer starts the game in reserve, and is moved out of reserve by the C'tan ability, which takes place after the game has begun.

But you are not satisfying the C'Tan ability rules, which state you must follow the normal deployment rules for the mission. Flyers must begin the game in reserve. The restriction on the C'Tan ability does not allow you supercede the Aerial Support restriction, just as it does not let you start with additional units in reserve beyond the 50% cap.

PanzerLeader wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:The C'Tan ability gives the permission by allowing you to move units into and out of reserves. Both rules are satisifed. The flyer starts the game in reserve, and is moved out of reserve by the C'tan ability, which takes place after the game has begun.

But you are not satisfying the C'Tan ability rules, which state you must follow the normal deployment rules for the mission. Flyers must begin the game in reserve. The restriction on the C'Tan ability does not allow you supercede the Aerial Support restriction, just as it does not let you start with additional units in reserve beyond the 50% cap.

You are misinterpreting deployment rules for the mission. What this is saying is that when you redeploy your d3 units they must be in the deployment zone assigned by the mission you are playing. Not what you keep claiming. You can deploy a flyer because the flyer started the game in reserves and was taken out after, and you can place more than 50% of your army in reserves for the same reason.

Captain Antivas wrote:You can deploy a flyer because the flyer started the game in reserves and was taken out after, and you can place more than 50% of your army in reserves for the same reason.

If you deploy the flyer then it is on the table before the 'Start of the Game' (which is defined), and therefore breaks the 'Ariel Support' rule. Something that no permission has been given to do.

Your forgetting "subject to normal deployment rule.." Flyers have to start in reserve with a normal deployment.

Fragile wrote:Your forgetting "subject to normal deployment rule.." Flyers have to start in reserve with a normal deployment.

I think argueing that the game hasn't started might be RAW.
But your shortening the Normal Deployment too much. It says Normal Delpoyment rules for the MISSION.
The Mission doesn't require flyers to start in reserve.

The scope of the arguement should be limited to does the C'Tan override the flyer rule of in reserve at the start of the Game.

Wrong. Again, read the actrual rules on page 122, which defines GAME LENGTH as a number of GAME TURNS
Note that The Battle starts before the first turn, however the Game starts on Game Turn 1.

Could you provide the quote? I read Game Lengths to tell you when the game Ends, but I can't find a reference to the start, nor can I find a reference to a Battle vs Game that you are implying.

-Matt

Fighting a battle, page 118.

"how long the game lasts" is defined as a number of turns, meaning game turn 1 is the start of the game

HawaiiMatt wrote:

Fragile wrote:Your forgetting "subject to normal deployment rule.." Flyers have to start in reserve with a normal deployment.

I think argueing that the game hasn't started might be RAW.
But your shortening the Normal Deployment too much. It says Normal Delpoyment rules for the MISSION.
The Mission doesn't require flyers to start in reserve.

The scope of the arguement should be limited to does the C'Tan override the flyer rule of in reserve at the start of the Game.

-Matt

And your trying to limit it too much. "normal deployment" and "normal deployment for the Mission" are the same thing, unless you can show me a mission that allows the Flyers to start on the board. So, no, C'Tan doesnt allow you to break the Flyers start in reserve.

So now the argument has been reduced to arguing over when the start of a game actually begins?

I mean, come on. If the game doesn't start when the first turn begins, then how precisely are flyers or Drop Pods supposed to start the game in reserve?

I walked up to the table to play and my flyers weren't in reserve yet and therefore they've broken the rules because apparently once you start picking deployment zones you've already started the game?

I mean seriously, there are logical backflips being made here to justify applying a rule which perfectly fine within the normal restrictions of the game. You are allowed to redeploy D3 units within the normal confines of the typical deployment. Its not rocket science, this isn't a rule which somehow allows you break any and all deployment rules that a unit might have.

Zagstruk and his unit MUST deepstrike onto the table. A rule like this would NOT allow this rule to be ignored and start the unit on the table. Drop Pods MUST start in Reserves and Deep Strike and a rule like this would not allow such a unit to suddenly be deployed onto the table.

A flyer MUST start the game in reserve, and this rule does not allow you to ignore any normal restrictions that the unit.

Placing a unit into reserve means you are NOT DEPLOYING IT. If you use a special rule to DEPLOY the unit onto the table, then the unit has not started the game in Reserve (it has been deployed).

The start of the game MUST be when the first turn starts or else it would be categorically impossible for units to start the game in reserve.

All great points yak! Keep it up the great work!

yakface wrote:

Placing a unit into reserve means you are NOT DEPLOYING IT. If you use a special rule to DEPLOY the unit onto the table, then the unit has not started the game in Reserve (it has been deployed).

The start of the game MUST be when the first turn starts or else it would be categorically impossible for units to start the game in reserve.

The necron rule allows you to redeploy a unit into reserve.

-Matt


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Fighting a battle, page 118.

"how long the game lasts" is defined as a number of turns, meaning game turn 1 is the start of the game

Thanks, that's what I was looking for. Page 118.

So if you take it to mean that "The Game" doesn't start until turn 1, then you've already rolled for 1st turn and sieze the initiative prior to the start of the game.
Can you redeploy after you know who's going 1st, after all "The Game" hasn't started yet so you are redeploying before the start of the game.
With GW and their love for effects that take place before the start of the game, I would have liked a more specific outline.

With your reading (which I don't disagree with), the game starts at the start of the 1st players turn, and not before. Anything before that is part of the battle (as described on page 118).
This means flyers must still be in reserve to "start in reserve", but you can move units after knowing who's going first, unless the rule has specific verbage requiring the redeploy to happen before the 1st turn roll.

Does the Necron, or other re-deploy rules mention 1st turn roll?



-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:
The necron rule allows you to redeploy a unit into reserve.

-Matt

It sure does, but it doesn't give you permission to ignore any normal restrictions that may apply to units being put into (or out of reserve). So can you follow the C'Tan's rule while still following all the normal restrictions? You sure can, and therefore this is what you must do.

Again, this is basic rules principles 101 (which you still seem to ignore when I bring it up). If a unit has a special rule that allows a unit to move 12" and then you have another rule which forbids a unit from moving at all (like going to ground), you don't get to say: Hey the special rule gives me permission to move this unit 12" and therefore I get to ignore any and all restrictions that might apply to moving this unit.

Is the edge of the table within 12" of moving my unit? So what, since my special rule says I can move the unit up to 12" that means I'm allowed to move it off the table ignoring the rule about not being able to move off the table. Is there impassable terrain in the way of my unit? Well, too bad, since my rule says I can move my unit 12" that means I get to move right through impassable terrain.

When a rule grants you permission to do something, that does not automatically remove any other restrictions that apply to the situation unless the permission explicitly says that it ignores said restrictions.


So again: Does the C'Tan's rule allow units to be moved into and out of reserves? Absolutely. But can you follow this rule without breaking the normal restrictions about what can or cannot be put into or out of reserve? Absolutely you can, and therefore that is how the rule works. You are allowed to move units into or out of reserves as long as doing so does not break any normal restrictions about what can or cannot go into or out of reserve.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

HawaiiMatt wrote:
So if you take it to mean that "The Game" doesn't start until turn 1, then you've already rolled for 1st turn and sieze the initiative prior to the start of the game.
Can you redeploy after you know who's going 1st, after all "The Game" hasn't started yet so you are redeploying before the start of the game.
With GW and their love for effects that take place before the start of the game, I would have liked a more specific outline.

With your reading (which I don't disagree with), the game starts at the start of the 1st players turn, and not before. Anything before that is part of the battle (as described on page 118).
This means flyers must still be in reserve to "start in reserve", but you can move units after knowing who's going first, unless the rule has specific verbage requiring the redeploy to happen before the 1st turn roll.

Does the Necron, or other re-deploy rules mention 1st turn roll?


-Matt

The FAQ for Lady Malys' rule covers this situation and clarifies that it happens after all other deployment has gone down but before the seize the initiative roll is made. The Necron power is a little more explicit in that it says you 'immediately' redeploy units after all forces have been deployed and scout moves made. So that's when the Necron rule would be enacted: immediately after both sides have finished deploying and finished making any scout moves (now called scout redeployment).

So we are going with the justification for an Imperial army being allowed to do this and a Xenos not. Sounds normal.

NecronLord3 wrote:So we are going with the justification for an Imperial army being allowed to do this and a Xenos not. Sounds normal.

What are you talking about? The general consensus is both Lady Malys and the Necron C'Tan power must follow normal deployment restrictions and must be fully resolved before "Seize the Initiative" is rolled. Remember, the roll for first turn is normally made when choosing who deploys first and so has already been decided before either power comes into play. Any Imperial rules similiarly worded would follow the same restrictions.

NecronLord3 wrote:So we are going with the justification for an Imperial army being allowed to do this and a Xenos not. Sounds normal.

... Lady Malys is a Dark Eldar character... Imperial?

NecronLord3 wrote:So we are going with the justification for an Imperial army being allowed to do this and a Xenos not. Sounds normal.

LM == DE. If they are now counted as an imperial army something has gone to pot....

yakface wrote:
Again, this is basic rules principles 101 (which you still seem to ignore when I bring it up). If a unit has a special rule that allows a unit to move 12" and then you have another rule which forbids a unit from moving at all (like going to ground), you don't get to say: Hey the special rule gives me permission to move this unit 12" and therefore I get to ignore any and all restrictions that might apply to moving this unit.

I'm not ignoring it.
I specifically said, missions specific rules for deployment do not include flyers must be off the table. The debate should be, when is the start of the game.
I'm working within the rules. If "the game" started prior to redeploy, then the C'tans ability to redeploy would not violate the Flyer Rule (not a mission rule), as it was in reserve at the start of "The Game".

Since the strongest arguement is that the game starts after rolling for the first turn (using the rules for gaming ending to determine the start), then the C'Tan cannot pull flyers from reserve.
Likewise, the C'Tan cannot force more units into reserve above the 50% limit, nor can he allow units to redeploy where-ever they feel like; they must follow normal deployment rules.


-Matt

I agree with Matt, that it comes down to when is the start of the game. I'm not taking sides on that one, but the result of it will determine the out come of this ruling.

I don't see how people can even attempt to claim that the game is not occuring when dice are being rolled and models being moved around the board. Sounds allot like the rest of the game to me.