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"...fires using its normal Ballistic Skill when shooting at Flyers..."

This is the part that is causing the confusion.

If they are shooting at a flyer then they fire at their normal BS.

Normally, this only applies to the Emplaced Weapon as most models can only fire one weapon per turn.

In the case of a model with the ability to fire multiple weapons in a round, this rule still applies as long as they are still shooting at a flyer.

The quote above reaffirms this. Is there another quote that can refute this?

CT GAMER wrote:Edited by AgeOfEgos

Then i'd humbly suggest that maybe YMDC isn't for you? As these sort of threads happen. all. the. time. here. I rather like them myself, they make for interesting logic puzzles that have the added thematic bonus of being in a hobby i enjoy.

I can see that's one way of reading the rule, but not a reading I agree with.
"A model with this special rule, or that is firing a weapon with this special rule, fires using its normal Ballistic Skill when shooting at Flyers..."

"A model with this special rule" [A model]
"A weapon with this special rule" [A weapon]
Depending on what has the rule effects the sentence. Only one will apply.

[A model] fires using its normal Ballistic Skill when shooting at Flyers..."
[A weapon] fires using its normal Ballistic Skill when shooting at Flyers..."

Firing a weapon, does not make a model fire with Skyfire, it allows the weapon to.

The problem with that is the preposition ('with') and the verbs ('firing', 'fires') in the Skyfire USR: all refer to the 'model' doing the firing, not the weapon that is being used. The only time 'a weapon' is referred to is the second part which asks if said weapon has skyfire.

edit: I'd also like to mention weapons themselves do not (typically) have a Ballistic Skill, only the model does.

 grendel083 wrote:
I can see that's one way of reading the rule, but not a reading I agree with.
"A model with this special rule, or that is firing a weapon with this special rule, fires using its normal Ballistic Skill when shooting at Flyers..."

"A model with this special rule" [A model]
"A weapon with this special rule" [A weapon]
Depending on what has the rule effects the sentence. Only one will apply.

[A model] fires using its normal Ballistic Skill when shooting at Flyers..."
[A weapon] fires using its normal Ballistic Skill when shooting at Flyers..."

Firing a weapon, does not make a model fire with Skyfire, it allows the weapon to.

I think this quote clearly articulates the counter argument.
However, I still think that it fires all weapons by RAW

Edit: I digressed. To the matter at hand:

The quote is missing a key portion of the analysis, specifically the model that is firing the weapon.

"A model with this special rule, or that is firing a weapon with this special rule, fires using its normal Ballistic Skill when shooting at Flyers..."

"...or that is firing a weapon" - the model fires the weapon on that phase. There after, all it's shots are fired at its own full BS when targeting flyers for that phase.

So to amend your statement above, the subjects are:
1) Model with special rule
2) Model firing a Weapon with special rule

Those would be the two options i believe.

Well the structure of the sentence clearly means that the model fires at full BS at flyers in either of the 2 conditions.

We're still stuck with the:
'One model in base contact with the gun can fire it instead of his own weapon, following the normal rules for shooting'

It could mean one of 3 things:
1) Only models with 1 weapon may fire it
2) They meant 'instead of all of his own weapons'
3) They meant 'instead of one of his own weapons'

Regardless, we follow the normal rules for shooting and those rules for Walkers/Vehicles state that they can fire all of their weapons, depending on movement. Nothing in the Gun Emplacement rules overridse or amends this, except if they meant option #2.

Unless they FAQ it, we'll not know which, but I doubt they meant #1.

Shandara wrote:It could mean one of 3 things:
1) Only models with 1 weapon may fire it
2) They meant 'instead of all of his own weapons'
3) They meant 'instead of one of his own weapons'

Lets have a look at these three options.

1) I agree with you on this one, (that it's probably not the correct definition) as i'm fairly sure that it would exclude virtually every model that currently exists for this game. (aka, they pretty much 'all' have more than one weapon; be it a ranged weapon, grenade, CCW, or some combination of the above)
2) The rules-text does say 'weapon' (as in a singular noun, rather than a plural). I'm reading this to indicate only 'one weapon' need be exchanged rather than 'all weapons'.
3) This is the interpretation i feel holds most closely to what the rule currently states.

Edited by AgeOfEgos

CT GAMER wrote:Edited by AgeofEgos

uh huh.

I would like to add this isn't the place to be calling anyone a rules-lawyer; in part because some may find that offensive but primarily as that label serves no valuable purpose here; the entire point of this board is to debate and discuss rules issues in an effort to determine their purpose and interaction.

 Neorealist wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:Edited by AgeOfEgos

uh huh.

I would like to add this isn't the place to be calling anyone a rules-lawyer; in part because some may find that offensive but primarily as that label serves no valuable purpose here; the entire point of this board is to debate and discuss rules issues in an effort to determine their purpose and interaction.

Good luck with that.

Bye Bye.

As the tenets of YMDC state;

5. Stick to discussing the rules, not the poster. Phrases like "Rules Lawyer", "Cheater" and "TFG" have no place in rules discussions. Don't depart from rules discussions by attaching value judgments to different interpretations.

Thanks

A walker, or any other model may not shoot any other weapon in the turn they fire the Gun Emplacement.

This is because they fire the Gun Emplacement Instead of their own weapon.

"...One model in base contact with the gun emplacement can fire it instead of his own weapon, following the normal rules for shooting..."

So only the Gun Emplacement or the models own weapons can be fired.

 DeathReaper wrote:
A walker, or any other model may not shoot any other weapon in the turn they fire the Gun Emplacement.

This is because they fire the Gun Emplacement Instead of their own weapon.

"...One model in base contact with the gun emplacement can fire it instead of his own weapon, following the normal rules for shooting..."

So only the Gun Emplacement or the models own weapons can be fired.

But walkers and other vehicles can fire more then one weapon.

No rule that i know of is preventing them from firing the quad gun, then firing their other weapons.

Is there a rule that suggests they would not be able to fire their other weapons after firing with the quad gun?

It also specifies that normal rules for shooting and relevant abilities apply...

It does not mater if they can fire 1000 weapons, they fire the gun emplacement instead of his own weapon.

So he can not use his own weapon if he fires the gun emplacement.

xAndurilx wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
A walker, or any other model may not shoot any other weapon in the turn they fire the Gun Emplacement.

This is because they fire the Gun Emplacement Instead of their own weapon.

"...One model in base contact with the gun emplacement can fire it instead of his own weapon, following the normal rules for shooting..."

So only the Gun Emplacement or the models own weapons can be fired.

But walkers and other vehicles can fire more then one weapon.

No rule that i know of is preventing them from firing the quad gun, then firing their other weapons.

Is there a rule that suggests they would not be able to fire their other weapons after firing with the quad gun?

It also specifies that normal rules for shooting and relevant abilities apply...

As deathreaper said, MC's and walkers can fire more than one of their own weapons but nothing permits them to fire a weapon that is not their own weapon as well as anything else that is theirs. So you show me where the quad gun is listed in their weaponry and then I'll agree with you, but as it stands the quad gun is not their own weapon. Further to the point is the fact that the quad gun is not owned by either side as the opposing force can just as easily walk up to it and fire it.

Only the gun gets it. That's why the Hydra flak tank's gun has skyfirer but the model does not.

 Kevin949 wrote:
[
As deathreaper said, MC's and walkers can fire more than one of their own weapons but nothing permits them to fire a weapon that is not their own weapon as well as anything else that is theirs. So you show me where the quad gun is listed in their weaponry and then I'll agree with you, but as it stands the quad gun is not their own weapon. Further to the point is the fact that the quad gun is not owned by either side as the opposing force can just as easily walk up to it and fire it.

Well, because the rule is unclear whether they meant plural weapons or singular weapon, you can't really claim one way or another with 100% certainty.

Walkers and vehicles have explicit permissions to fire ALL their own weapons (vehicles if stationary). An additional rule permitting them to fire an outside weapon doesn't really override this, unless they meant it replaces all weapons.

We can't tell if GW really meant to replace one or all weapons until they clarify the rule. It is likely the intent to forgo your own weapons, but that's not what I see written there.

 Shandara wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:
[
As deathreaper said, MC's and walkers can fire more than one of their own weapons but nothing permits them to fire a weapon that is not their own weapon as well as anything else that is theirs. So you show me where the quad gun is listed in their weaponry and then I'll agree with you, but as it stands the quad gun is not their own weapon. Further to the point is the fact that the quad gun is not owned by either side as the opposing force can just as easily walk up to it and fire it.

Well, because the rule is unclear whether they meant plural weapons or singular weapon, you can't really claim one way or another with 100% certainty.

Walkers and vehicles have explicit permissions to fire ALL their own weapons (vehicles if stationary). An additional rule permitting them to fire an outside weapon doesn't really override this, unless they meant it replaces all weapons.

We can't tell if GW really meant to replace one or all weapons until they clarify the rule. It is likely the intent to forgo your own weapons, but that's not what I see written there.

There is nothing in the rule that implies or suggests you can fire the gun and still fire any other gun on your two gun model and have skyfire granted to the models other gun. Because it doesn't say you can - you can't. It doesn't mean the rule is ambiguous and now you can do whatever you want.

This is plainly an effort of find some way to misunderstand the rule so you can get permission to do something the rule never even hints you might be allowed to do.

It's hard to hit zooming flyers but so what. They come on at the soonest turn two, can't shoot behind them, and have a habit of leaving the battlefield. 5 out of 6 missions is about having boots on the field. Play the missions and they are a lot less scary.

 White Ninja wrote:
Only the gun gets it. That's why the Hydra flak tank's gun has skyfirer but the model does not.

But one of things being argued here is that there is a rule error - we know that what you said is intended. However, the rules actually SAY that yes, if you fire the Hydra Autocannons, the whole model may shoot at fliers with normal BS.

The only argument I can see concerns the word 'is' which implies that there is a time limit. Does this mean 'in this phase', or 'at this exact time'? Do all weapons on a vehicle fire at once?

I would never actually PLAY it this way, and wouldn't accept someone's Land Raider 'shooting' a quad gun and gaining Skyfire on it's lascannons, but we're trying to ascertain if threre is an error. I, for one, think that there is, and would expect it to get FAQ'd out....

xAndurilx wrote:
"...fires using its normal Ballistic Skill when shooting at Flyers..."

This is the part that is causing the confusion.

If they are shooting at a flyer then they fire at their normal BS.

Normally, this only applies to the Emplaced Weapon as most models can only fire one weapon per turn.

In the case of a model with the ability to fire multiple weapons in a round, this rule still applies as long as they are still shooting at a flyer.

The quote above reaffirms this. Is there another quote that can refute this?

Why limit it to just the rest of the turn - why not the rest of the game?

The problem is really around "fires with its normal BS when shooting at fliers" The rule is silent as to which shots or how long this applies for. If you really wanted to twist the rules a model which has fires a skyfire weapon subsequently fires with its usual BS against fliers for the rest of the game. The easy RAI fix is to deem that this rule only applies to those shots being fired at that particular time.

This means that the rule applies as "fires [such shots] with its usual BS against fliers"

RFHolloway wrote:
Why limit it to just the rest of the turn - why not the rest of the game?

The problem is really around "fires with its normal BS when shooting at fliers" The rule is silent as to which shots or how long this applies for. If you really wanted to twist the rules a model which has fires a skyfire weapon subsequently fires with its usual BS against fliers for the rest of the game. The easy RAI fix is to deem that this rule only applies to those shots being fired at that particular time.

This means that the rule applies as "fires [such shots] with its usual BS against fliers"

Like you said, the rule is ambiguous as to how long it applies for. That said, it's easy enough to interpret it as applying to any gun fired at the same time as the skyfire gun as it is to infer it applies to any gun fired by the model 'after' firing a skyfire gun.

I think i can comfortably state that most do not feel that particular action is 'intended' (aka benefiting from skyfire on non-skyfire weapons), but it does seem to be what is 'stated'.

Perhaps the skyfire weapons' shot(s) serve as tracers for the rest of the salvo launched by the model?

It's not really ambiguous if you take into account the fact that models firing the quad gun (or any gun emplacement, really) wouldn't be able to fire anything else, so only the gun emplacement would utilize the rule anyway. And other than gun emplacements, I believe only actual models (such as flyers and FMC) can choose to use skyfire with all their weapons.

At least, I can't personally think of a model that has 1 weapon in it's profile that has skyfire and not interceptor and no other weapons with the skyfire rule.

You do keep saying that. Why is it that you feel firing an emplaced weapon temporarily replaces all of the models' attacks, rather than just one of the models' weapons?

As for Skyfire itself? they've only given it to fortifications, fliers, a mysterious objective, and the hydra flak tank so far so i'd have to agree with your latter statement; there isn't a single model currently in the game (that i'm aware of) which only has the skyfire USR on one of the weapons it could legally fire in a turn so that is probably not going to be a good place to look for precident.

 Neorealist wrote:
You do keep saying that. Why is it that you feel firing an emplaced weapon temporarily replaces all of the models' attacks, rather than just one of the models' weapons?

As for Skyfire itself? they've only given it to fortifications, fliers, a mysterious objective, and the hydra flak tank so far so i'd have to agree with your latter statement; there isn't a single model currently in the game (that i'm aware of) which only has the skyfire USR on one of the weapons it could legally fire in a turn so that is probably not going to be a good place to look for precident.

I've stated multiple times why and no one has refuted that.

The rest of the debate is moot since that is how the rule for gun emplacements work.

I'm not using that as a precident, I'm using that as a "the gun emplacement is the only time it 'could' be considered and that debate is moot because of what I've been saying."

So I'll reiterate it for you - Walkers and MC's can only fire more than 1 of their own weapons in the shooting phase. If you fire a gun emplacement (that is not owned by any model or really even any army), that gun is not one of the MC's or walkers "own" weapons, so you have now fired 1 weapon that doesn't belong to the model. Where is your permission to fire anything else? It's certainly not in the MC or Walker rule, and the gun emplacement does say "instead of his own weapon" but it does not as "as if firing one of his weapons" or similar wording. The fact it says "instead of" means that the model is, in fact, not firing one of their own weapons. So, no permission there either.

 Kevin949 wrote:

 Neorealist wrote:
You do keep saying that. Why is it that you feel firing an emplaced weapon temporarily replaces all of the models' attacks, rather than just one of the models' weapons?

As for Skyfire itself? they've only given it to fortifications, fliers, a mysterious objective, and the hydra flak tank so far so i'd have to agree with your latter statement; there isn't a single model currently in the game (that i'm aware of) which only has the skyfire USR on one of the weapons it could legally fire in a turn so that is probably not going to be a good place to look for precident.

I've stated multiple times why and no one has refuted that.

The rest of the debate is moot since that is how the rule for gun emplacements work.

I'm not using that as a precident, I'm using that as a "the gun emplacement is the only time it 'could' be considered and that debate is moot because of what I've been saying."

So I'll reiterate it for you - Walkers and MC's can only fire more than 1 of their own weapons in the shooting phase. If you fire a gun emplacement (that is not owned by any model or really even any army), that gun is not one of the MC's or walkers "own" weapons, so you have now fired 1 weapon that doesn't belong to the model. Where is your permission to fire anything else? It's certainly not in the MC or Walker rule, and the gun emplacement does say "instead of his own weapon" but it does not as "as if firing one of his weapons" or similar wording. The fact it says "instead of" means that the model is, in fact, not firing one of their own weapons. So, no permission there either.

You are allowed to fire 2 Weapons: Weapon A and Weapon B. The Quadgun replaces the firing of one of your weapons. You never lose your permission to fire the other weapon.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
You are allowed to fire 2 Weapons: Weapon A and Weapon B. The Quadgun replaces the firing of one of your weapons. You never lose your permission to fire the other weapon.

I take it you have a rules quote with a page number that says this?

Sure! 6th edtion rulebook, page 84. (Specifically the walkers section, though i am sure there is a note in the vehicles section too about them being able to fire multiple weapons simultaniously as well.)
...A walker that moved can still fire all of its weapons in the subsequent Shooting phase...

You'll note that there is not a single model which states it can fire another model's weapon; so for that to work we need to refer to the emplaced weapons rules-text itself:
"One model in base contact with the gun emplacement can fire it instead of his own weapon..."

Note the second quote gives permission for the btb model to fire a weapon instead of one of his own; though there is some contention as to wether or not the model needs to fire the emplaced weapon instead of all of his own weapons, or instead of one of his own weapons. I've addressed this in an earlier post.

 RFHolloway wrote:

xAndurilx wrote:
"...fires using its normal Ballistic Skill when shooting at Flyers..."

This is the part that is causing the confusion.

If they are shooting at a flyer then they fire at their normal BS.

Normally, this only applies to the Emplaced Weapon as most models can only fire one weapon per turn.

In the case of a model with the ability to fire multiple weapons in a round, this rule still applies as long as they are still shooting at a flyer.

The quote above reaffirms this. Is there another quote that can refute this?

Why limit it to just the rest of the turn - why not the rest of the game?

The problem is really around "fires with its normal BS when shooting at fliers" The rule is silent as to which shots or how long this applies for. If you really wanted to twist the rules a model which has fires a skyfire weapon subsequently fires with its usual BS against fliers for the rest of the game. The easy RAI fix is to deem that this rule only applies to those shots being fired at that particular time.

This means that the rule applies as "fires [such shots] with its usual BS against fliers"

There is a clear distinction of when it begins and ends with the word "is":

"...or that is firing a weapon with this special rule"

A unit fires all it's weapons simultaneously.

 Kevin949 wrote:

At least, I can't personally think of a model that has 1 weapon in it's profile that has skyfire and not interceptor and no other weapons with the skyfire rule.

The IG Hydra has Skyfire and not Intercepter on its autocannon. I also belive you can buy additional weapons for it (like a HK missle or HB) that have neither Skyfire or Intercepter.

So yes, the Hydra would be an example we were looking for earlier:

Lets say you purchase the optional pintle-mounted storm bolter for it. You then fire the Hydra Autocannons at a nearby passing Flier. (aka: within the range and arc-of-fire of the storm bolter on the vehicle). Can you also at that time choose to fire the bolter at said flier, and furthermore do you hit with the storm bolter only on 6's or as per it's normal ballistic skill?

I believe that the skyfire USR says 'Yes' to this scenario, and at the full ballistic skill of the vehicle no less.