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It is very hard to determine what makes a list "cheesy". To me, it is a list that does not win based on the power of its models. It wins, because it overloads on something (anything: flyers, cheap tanks, infantry, MC's, AV14 ect.), to the point that the enemy list can not deal with it. It is a list that lacks variety. it is a list that leads to game with little interaction between the players.


They are the lest fun lists to play with or against, as the game is decided not by the players, but by the lists.

Example: 500 pt. land raider list. [It is a legal list out of the space marine codex, not a good list, just an example]
Did the enemy bring a meltagun? NO. You win.
Did the enemy bring a meltagun? YES. You lose.

Your win rate is determined, not by your ability, but by the prevalence of the counter to your list in the Metagame. Only 20% of lists bring meltaguns; You have an 80% win rate.


the Necron Airforce is one of the "Cheesy" lists for 6th edition. Flyer Defense is limited, and Necrons have some of the best and most prevalent flyers around. You go all in on your flyers, hoping that your enemy does not have the tools to deal with them. Most of the time, the enemy is unable to deal with your list in a cost effective way. However, If they are IG and brought a ton of hydras just for you, then you are screwed.


That being said

CHEESY =/= STRONG

Cheesy and Strong are 2 different elements. You can have a Weak Cheesy list or a Strong Cheesy list. You can have a Weak Non-Cheese list and a Strong non-Cheese list.

Cheesy lists are in the end inconsistent. With good matchups, you will win games by huge margins. But as new Codices come out and the Metagame Changes, your Cheese will go stale. Once more flyer defense is around, Necron Air will be much less powerful ect.


The opposite of Cheese is TAC

TAC lists win, not due to a lack in the enemy list, but through their ability to handle anything the enemy presents in a cost effective way. True TAC will give you no bad match ups. You may not win big, but you have effective tools no matter what is across the table from you.


No list is ever "pure cheese" or "Pure TAC". A list will contain elements of both. The most powerful list are the ones that combine Cheese, TAC and Cost Efficiency.

Personally, I tend to lean more toward the TAC and Cost Effeciency ends of the spectrum.
It will provide you with a powerful list that is less susceptible to changes in the metagame.
You will have more fun in games, as the game is more focused on your play rather than on your list.
You will have fewer games where you feel like it is impossible to win. You will always have a chance.



I started my current 40k army when the GK codex came out. I do not run more than 2 copies of an Identical unit (including transports, all the way up to 2500 points). I have not majorly changed my list since I started it. I have a ton of fun Modeling, Painting, and Playing with the army, and I am always trying to improve my skills in those areas.

At the begging of 6th edition, i was very discouraged. I lost all of the games I played, for weeks. I honestly thought my army was completely worthless in 6th edition. Once I played a few more games, I tweaked a few things in my list (good bye Arco-Flaggellents, I miss you) and more importantly, tweaked my playing. Play more games, tweak you list, play more games. Play more opponents, with different codexes and list. Play more and you will get better. You do not need to scrap your list to do well at a tournament.

========

TLDR;

The Way of the Cheese brings only short term power based on the current metagame.
The Way of TAC efficiency brings long term power and there is always a chance for victory.

Play more games, tweak you list, play more games ect. That is how you get better.

thanks for all your replies, i forgot i even started it and have only just looked at the replies .

ok so heres what i went and orderd last night to give me a good foundation for both necrons and grey knights. i also ordered a few bikers and huron blackheart as the final pieces to my chaos list.

Necron Overlord
Necron Battleforce
Chaos Space Marines Bike x2
Huron Blackheart
Grey Knight Nemesis Dreadknight
Grey Knights x 2
Codex: Grey Knights
Castellan Crowe
Lord Kaldor Draigo
Necron Catacomb Command Barge / Annihilation Barge
Codex: Necrons


my current list is

Nurgle biker lord with pf burning brand of scalthrax MON

huron black heart ( mainly for the master of deception rule)

10 cultists 1 shotgun 8 auto guns 1 stubber( hold objectives)

10 cultists 1 flamer ( man the ADL)

7 plagues x2 plasmas (be annoyance)

7 plagues x2 plasmas (hold objectives)

4 bikers x2 plasmas champ with fist (to run alongside biker lord)

obliterators x2 MON

obliterators x2 MON

obliterators x2 MON

HELDRAKE

HELDRAKE

AEGIS DEFENCE LINE QUAD GUN



i beliveve this to be a fairly competitive 2000 point ish list maybe replace 1 squad of oblits with a squad of havocs?

 Peregrine wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Cheesy and OP armies bring the life into this game.

Fixed that for you. One sided massacres and harvesting your opponent's tears when they ragequit are how games are meant to be played.

Can we anti-exalt posts?

Topic: IG flyer spam. The cheesiest list you can currently build.

The thread should be called "If you sucked at 40K but absolutely had to win what would you buy?"

 d3m01iti0n wrote:
The thread should be called "If you sucked at 40K but absolutely had to win what would you buy?"

No, it's "how do i beat my friendz the easiest"

Seriously, though, there already are a lot of WAAC "players" out there. Unless you frequently play at tournaments, you will soon play on your own if you bring such lists. A lot.

 Tyranid Horde wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

OhNoItsNot wrote:
Cheese lists also tend to put all your points into one OP thing which leaves you with a bunch of models you can't use most of when it gets changed/ people start to run counters

Only if you run a deathstar. At lower pt levels, Eldar is still competitive. You could go for an S6 spam list.

Guilty as charged. I tend to spam the old str 6 weapons myself. It isn't really cheese though.

Okay, I'd go for a Necron strike force. Have a look at the battle reports of jy2.

If you need to cheese, you suck at this game and need to have it set to godmode to win.

I play 40K like i play my videogames. If i want to spend a few hours just mindlessly killing stuff, it goes on easymode, and i'm never really in danger of anything (barring occasionally oopses like shooting my own feet repeatedly with a rocket launcher)

If i want to actually PLAY the thing goes on Hard, or occasionally Nightmare (for you old time Doom players..)

With no challenge the only satisfaction you are getting is the smug asshattery of telling someone else that they suck, because you have a godmode cheat and they don't.

I prefer games where the armies are about equal in power, but the opponent is a touch more skilled than I am. The victories are actually worth it then, and feel great.

Those who cheesefest to maintain their W/L/D and don't get that there is more to this game than that are welcome to their beliefs, but they aren't much fun to play against unless you are also of that mindset.

I've played some great games with competitive people, and has some lousy games with non-competitive ones, as well as the other way round. It's not so much the competitive-level that decides the worth of the game, but the attitude of the guy across the table.

Sisters of Battle. My W/L/D says says they are about as cheesy as they come.

 d3m01iti0n wrote:
The thread should be called "If you sucked at 40K but absolutely had to win what would you buy?"

ok folks lol. let me set the scene a little better for you. i started this post to gain everyones opinion of what would be there dream cheese list if they had the chance to start again from scratch, to really ruin someones day.

To be honest yeah im not the greatest of players, ive only in the last 6 months got the attitude of wanting to go out and battle with these little toy men. since the 6th ed and the new codex rules came out its shattered my confidence to get out and enter a tournement. I've played about twenty times so far, 3 of which have been at a gaming club with 6th ed rules 17 times have been on the kitchen table playing 5th ed with friends.

The guy who runs the gaming club is the most smugest git you will every meet and braggs to everyone how he hasn't lost a battle for 6 years. He has Dark Eldar, Chaos , Space marines, Orks and imperial guard armies. the 8 of us regulars who go there only have one army each so he knows what to do with each one of us to ruin our day. My plan is to arrive in january with him thinking im taking a chaos army and shock horror ive brought along the cheesiest mature chedder i can buy and desolve that smug looking smile of his stupid little head with the strongest cheesiest acidic army i can build. I too am against really cheesy army list with over competitive people piloting them, but id like to own one just so i can get it off the shelf to beat some geeky smug little w&nker , when need be!!!!!!

ya get me?

Sebbyp538 wrote:

 d3m01iti0n wrote:
The thread should be called "If you sucked at 40K but absolutely had to win what would you buy?"

ok folks lol. let me set the scene a little better for you. i started this post to gain everyones opinion of what would be there dream cheese list if they had the chance to start again from scratch, to really ruin someones day.

To be honest yeah im not the greatest of players, ive only in the last 6 months got the attitude of wanting to go out and battle with these little toy men. since the 6th ed and the new codex rules came out its shattered my confidence to get out and enter a tournement. I've played about twenty times so far, 3 of which have been at a gaming club with 6th ed rules 17 times have been on the kitchen table playing 5th ed with friends.

The guy who runs the gaming club is the most smugest git you will every meet and braggs to everyone how he hasn't lost a battle for 6 years. He has Dark Eldar, Chaos , Space marines, Orks and imperial guard armies. the 8 of us regulars who go there only have one army each so he knows what to do with each one of us to ruin our day. My plan is to arrive in january with him thinking im taking a chaos army and shock horror ive brought along the cheesiest mature chedder i can buy and desolve that smug looking smile of his stupid little head with the strongest cheesiest acidic army i can build. I too am against really cheesy army list with over competitive people piloting them, but id like to own one just so i can get it off the shelf to beat some geeky smug little w&nker , when need be!!!!!!

ya get me?

Definitely approve, I approve for it being a good list with a bit of cheese This though has a better meaning to it.

Ok so now we have all the nit picking out the way, as to why i should so dare assemble a cheese list, can we please get back to the nitty gritty as to how i can form an army to beat a mid fourties over competitive scotish git?

so as i've mentioned earlier this is what i ordered yesterday and im hoping to arrive on the 28th dec. i dont have the codex's with me as they too are on order. i will list what i have for both armies and can we aim for 2000 points to form around what i've bought. cheese me up please.

Codex: Necrons
Necron Overlord
Necron Battleforce
Necron Catacomb Command Barge / Annihilation Barge


Codex: Grey Knights
Castellan Crowe
Lord Kaldor Draigo
Grey Knight Nemesis Dreadknight
Grey Knights (troops) x 2

Can you get your hands on 7-9+ Nightscythes and min/maxed Immortal squads?! Just sit back and Tesla him to death while annoying him to no end with nothing but Fliers on the table.

Failing that, there's not much that can stand upto the likes of;
- GK Librarian w/Prescience + other BRB powers
- GK Grandmaster w/rads & psychos
- 3x Techmarines w/rads & psychos
- maxed out Strike Squads w/2x Psycannons, Hammer (not on Justicar), and psybolt ammo
- Psyflman dread (2x twin-autocannons + psybolt ammo)
- 2x Dreadknights w/sword & gattling psylencer thingy. (mainly for the silly amount of shots you get!)

Rads & Psychos alone pretty much auto-win almost any assault for you. Spaming your cheapest knights not only gives you more bodies than the average GK list, (outside of Henchman spam), but also plenty of S5/24" range hurt.

Now, while I agree that roflstomping pathetic little worms who only play the most ultra-abusable 'uberfied netlists is highly satisfying, it should be noted that it's much, much funnier if you do it without using a pure cheddar list yourself!
Not only do you put the flamming idiot in their rightful place, (being scrapped off the bottom of one's shoe), but you also embaress the crap outa them because you've used a competitive, yet balanced list in order to do so!

ok i like the idea of the night sythes etc. it keeps things simple and i can paint all that in a generic factory production style quickly.

now the gk's.... is the grand master not lord draigo? and strike squads can you make them out of the grey knights boxs, the ones with the standard marines in i meen???

Sebbyp538 wrote:

 d3m01iti0n wrote:
The thread should be called "If you sucked at 40K but absolutely had to win what would you buy?"

ok folks lol. let me set the scene a little better for you. i started this post to gain everyones opinion of what would be there dream cheese list if they had the chance to start again from scratch, to really ruin someones day.

To be honest yeah im not the greatest of players, ive only in the last 6 months got the attitude of wanting to go out and battle with these little toy men. since the 6th ed and the new codex rules came out its shattered my confidence to get out and enter a tournement. I've played about twenty times so far, 3 of which have been at a gaming club with 6th ed rules 17 times have been on the kitchen table playing 5th ed with friends.

The guy who runs the gaming club is the most smugest git you will every meet and braggs to everyone how he hasn't lost a battle for 6 years. He has Dark Eldar, Chaos , Space marines, Orks and imperial guard armies. the 8 of us regulars who go there only have one army each so he knows what to do with each one of us to ruin our day. My plan is to arrive in january with him thinking im taking a chaos army and shock horror ive brought along the cheesiest mature chedder i can buy and desolve that smug looking smile of his stupid little head with the strongest cheesiest acidic army i can build. I too am against really cheesy army list with over competitive people piloting them, but id like to own one just so i can get it off the shelf to beat some geeky smug little w&nker , when need be!!!!!!

ya get me?

You may end up being disappointed.

A cheesy list....no, any list in general....only works if you know how to run it properly. No matter what type of list you bring, if you don't really know how to play it, then I'm afraid he's still going to beat you. I may be wrong, but it appears he has a much bigger experience edge on you. And who knows, he may even actually be a good player. Even a good player with a mediorce list can beat a bad player with a good list (not that I'm saying you're a bad player).

Anyways, I suggest that, instead of trying to come up with cheesy lists, come up with a decent Take-All-Comer's (TAC) list and really learn how to play it. That also helps to improve your game skill-wise. You can learn a lot by browsing the threads on this forum and by asking questions. And not to brag or anything, but you can learn a lot from my battle reports (found in the link below) as well as see some strong and balanced TAC lists.

deep striking 30 death company with astorath and dante

Sebbyp538 wrote:
thanks for all your replies, i forgot i even started it and have only just looked at the replies .

ok so heres what i went and orderd last night to give me a good foundation for both necrons and grey knights. i also ordered a few bikers and huron blackheart as the final pieces to my chaos list.

Necron Overlord
Necron Battleforce
Chaos Space Marines Bike x2
Huron Blackheart
Grey Knight Nemesis Dreadknight
Grey Knights x 2
Codex: Grey Knights
Castellan Crowe
Lord Kaldor Draigo
Necron Catacomb Command Barge / Annihilation Barge
Codex: Necrons


my current list is

Nurgle biker lord with pf burning brand of scalthrax MON

huron black heart ( mainly for the master of deception rule)

10 cultists 1 shotgun 8 auto guns 1 stubber( hold objectives)

10 cultists 1 flamer ( man the ADL)

7 plagues x2 plasmas (be annoyance)

7 plagues x2 plasmas (hold objectives)

4 bikers x2 plasmas champ with fist (to run alongside biker lord)

obliterators x2 MON

obliterators x2 MON

obliterators x2 MON

HELDRAKE

HELDRAKE

AEGIS DEFENCE LINE QUAD GUN



i beliveve this to be a fairly competitive 2000 point ish list maybe replace 1 squad of oblits with a squad of havocs?

You actually have a pretty balanced TAC Chaos list here. It's got the tools to deal with most armies. Rather then focusing on building "cheesy" lists, you should make balanced lists like this and practice with it.

SuperBD7745 wrote:
deep striking 30 death company with astorath and dante

Sigh....

That's not cheesy. It's just so full of fail.....

180 shoota boys with nobs and powerklaws led by a warboss equipped however you like and if you have points left over throw in some big shootas/rokkits.

At 1500 points I have yet to see an army with enough firepower to kill that many orcs fast enough.

Lets face it, only reason you don't see a massive tide of orcs winning everything is because it is damn near impossible to move them all fast enough in the time allotted in tournaments

No it's because that army sucks. What would it do against Grey Knights? What would it do against pie plate drop pods w/ combi-flamering Sternguard? What would it do against Sisters flamer spam? Sure it would hard counter some lists, but others it would completely fold against.

I agree with jy2. The list won't play itself, and you'll have to learn how to play the Necrons/GK codices as well as you know how to play the Chaos one.

And, also, don't give that guy the satisfaction of making you build and paint an entirely new army just to beat him. He'll only use it to puff up his vanity, and will remind you of it every time you play. "Well, of course, you did have to build a whole new cheesy army just to beat me..." and so on.

You've already invested time and effort into playing Chaos, and you have the new book. It's a better idea to play that book thoroughly, learn it, and then savor your sweet revenge when you figure out how to really destroy him with weird, unpredictable chaos.

From personal experience it rapes grey knights as do you know what an army of elite infantry HATES to do? It hates trying to make upwards of 100 armor saves a turn. Purifiers and cleansing flames is a pain but they have to be out of their transport to do that which means there's at least a full tun of shooting them in the open before you have to worry about it.

Same goes with sisters, yeah the flamers are going to hurt obviously but at the end of the day are they REALLY going to kill enough orcs with an 8 inch template that they aren't going to be assaulted and murdered in CC?

As for sternguard....congrats, a one use template from dudes in a drop pod on it's best day killed one of 6 mobs of orcs and is now in the middle of an ork mob to get blasted...

And with pie plates, well you got at best 3 turns to drop enough pieplates that 180 orcs are dead at 1500 points....good luck with that.

Sebbyp538 wrote:
Ok so now we have all the nit picking out the way, as to why i should so dare assemble a cheese list, can we please get back to the nitty gritty as to how i can form an army to beat a mid fourties over competitive scotish git?

so as i've mentioned earlier this is what i ordered yesterday and im hoping to arrive on the 28th dec. i dont have the codex's with me as they too are on order. i will list what i have for both armies and can we aim for 2000 points to form around what i've bought. cheese me up please.

Codex: Necrons
Necron Overlord
Necron Battleforce
Necron Catacomb Command Barge / Annihilation Barge


Codex: Grey Knights
Castellan Crowe
Lord Kaldor Draigo
Grey Knight Nemesis Dreadknight
Grey Knights (troops) x 2

Too bad you can’t order skill and a good understanding of the rules -.-'

How about you read the codexs, play the armies yourself so you understand how the work, how they feel and then build a decent army yourself rather than asking for a net list, dumping a load of money on it then, after showing up to your game with it, slunk off home wandering why you didn’t win against someone who is clearly more skilled than you.

Because until you do that then you’re just going to keep on loosing until you get better. Beating people takes a lot more than

1: buy cheesy army

2: win

Sort of doing this now. I would do dragon with a ten man paladin squad, fully kitted out. That is near 1000 points. Cheap army to build and easy to paint.

Sebbyp538 wrote:

I think you are underestimating this type of git I'm up against. This is the sort of guy who says that you can apparently assault through solid walls and moves scenery out the way to assault through it. Who says when creating an army list at 2000 points your not allowed to play 4 hq, he makes up scenery rules that should be made prior to deployment. I know what your gonna say. "Why do you bother playing with him, play somewhere else" well that my friend would be even more of a pusay move to do, more than build a cheese list that is so one sided it won't matter what stupid rules he tries to pull out his sleeve.

Did you challenge him? Ask him to show you where in the rules does it say that you can do that? If something seems beardy, it's ok to ask.

Believe it or not, some of the stuff he may be doing is actually legal. You can actually move through the walls of ruins, even if they seem completely solid. He just needs to treat it as difficult terrain. Only if the terrain is declared as impassable or a building can you not move through it. But if the terrain is declared to be ruins (and if he can see at least 1 model in the target unit) then he can assault through it even if it appears to be a solid wall (the fluff is that you can just break through the very weak walls of the ruins or perhaps there is an opening there in the walls).

As for moving "scenery", you can actually do that sometimes. You know some of the forest terrains with removable trees. You cannot move the forest but you can actually move the trees for the purpose of moving through it or putting models there. The trees, just like the walls of ruins, do not block your movement. They only serve to block LOS to and from the opponent. This is, of course, assuming that the trees aren't glued onto the base of the terrain, but for the purposes of gameplay, you can move through those trees just like you can move through the walls of a ruin.

The no-4-HQ's sounds more like a house-rule. If you allow double-FOC at 2K (not every place allows this), then normally you should be able to take 4. So either he isn't familiar with the 6th rules or there is a house-rule at the club where you guys play that disallows double-FOC. You can challenge him on this one.

Really, if you think he is actually cheating, then bringing a "cheesy" army isn't the solution. Because he is still going to "cheat" and you will still lose to him because you aren't as familiar with the rules. My advise? Study the rules and understand them. So next time you think he is doing something beardy, challenge him on it. Understand your army better and if you can, try to get more familiar with some of the rules of your opponent's armies. If you are knowledgeable about the game, then he shouldn't be able to pull a fast one over you. Because I can tell you right now that building and bringing a cheesy army isn't the solution. It is just wasting your time and money (unless you enjoy building and painting the army). Learning the rules and understanding the game is.

 jy2 wrote:

Sebbyp538 wrote:

I think you are underestimating this type of git I'm up against. This is the sort of guy who says that you can apparently assault through solid walls and moves scenery out the way to assault through it. Who says when creating an army list at 2000 points your not allowed to play 4 hq, he makes up scenery rules that should be made prior to deployment. I know what your gonna say. "Why do you bother playing with him, play somewhere else" well that my friend would be even more of a pusay move to do, more than build a cheese list that is so one sided it won't matter what stupid rules he tries to pull out his sleeve.

Did you challenge him? Ask him to show you where in the rules does it say that you can do that? If something seems beardy, it's ok to ask.

Believe it or not, some of the stuff he may be doing is actually legal. You can actually move through the walls of ruins, even if they seem completely solid. He just needs to treat it as difficult terrain. Only if the terrain is declared as impassable or a building can you not move through it. But if the terrain is declared to be ruins (and if he can see at least 1 model in the target unit) then he can assault through it even if it appears to be a solid wall (the fluff is that you can just break through the very weak walls of the ruins or perhaps there is an opening there in the walls).

As for moving "scenery", you can actually do that sometimes. You know some of the forest terrains with removable trees. You cannot move the forest but you can actually move the trees for the purpose of moving through it or putting models there. The trees, just like the walls of ruins, do not block your movement. They only serve to block LOS to and from the opponent. This is, of course, assuming that the trees aren't glued onto the base of the terrain, but for the purposes of gameplay, you can move through those trees just like you can move through the walls of a ruin.

The no-4-HQ's sounds more like a house-rule. If you allow double-FOC at 2K (not every place allows this), then normally you should be able to take 4. So either he isn't familiar with the 6th rules or there is a house-rule at the club where you guys play that disallows double-FOC. You can challenge him on this one.

Really, if you think he is actually cheating, then bringing a "cheesy" army isn't the solution. Because he is still going to "cheat" and you will still lose to him because you aren't as familiar with the rules. My advise? Study the rules and understand them. So next time you think he is doing something beardy, challenge him on it. Understand your army better and if you can, try to get more familiar with some of the rules of your opponent's armies. If you are knowledgeable about the game, then he shouldn't be able to pull a fast one over you. Because I can tell you right now that building and bringing a cheesy army isn't the solution. It is just wasting your time and money (unless you enjoy building and painting the army). Learning the rules and understanding the game is.

pretty much this -.-' and I really can't stress the part at the end. like I said in my last post, you can't buy skill so why not read the rules, play test your army and make a good list yourself, rather than throwing money at a new army just so you can beat one person.

Sebbyp538 wrote:
I know what your gonna say. "Why do you bother playing with him, play somewhere else" well that my friend would be even more of a pusay move to do, more than build a cheese list that is so one sided it won't matter what stupid rules he tries to pull out his sleeve.

I would actually call that the mature thing to do, not the 'pusay' thing to do. o.O

I had this problem recently......I haven't really got to grips with the new edition. I also have 7 vendettas and a vulture.....I haven't even used them in competitive games because it isn't any fun.

I wrote a 1500 balanced salamander list from codex marines, it's not spammy and I am learning the new edition from the bottom up. I was reasonably good at fifth edition but for some reason I am not good at sixth....I am going to keep playing my marines until I get good again......one game at a time.

Ps....I don't even have vulkan btw .... I will be learning to get the win with tactical marines etc

 Evertras wrote:

Sebbyp538 wrote:
I know what your gonna say. "Why do you bother playing with him, play somewhere else" well that my friend would be even more of a pusay move to do, more than build a cheese list that is so one sided it won't matter what stupid rules he tries to pull out his sleeve.

I would actually call that the mature thing to do, not the 'pusay' thing to do. o.O

More mature than playing war games with toy men? i get sick and tired of people of giving me opinions on this thread that its wrong to go out and buy a cheese list. For gods sake either give me a cheesy list or pi$$ off and tell someone else what they dont want to hear!!!!!

Sebbyp538 wrote:

 Evertras wrote:

Sebbyp538 wrote:
I know what your gonna say. "Why do you bother playing with him, play somewhere else" well that my friend would be even more of a pusay move to do, more than build a cheese list that is so one sided it won't matter what stupid rules he tries to pull out his sleeve.

I would actually call that the mature thing to do, not the 'pusay' thing to do. o.O

More mature than playing war games with toy men? i get sick and tired of people of giving me opinions on this thread that its wrong to go out and buy a cheese list. For gods sake either give me a cheesy list or pi$$ off and tell someone else what they dont want to hear!!!!!

If you want a true "Cheese list", then go buy a bunch of non-Nurgle Daemons and play Fantasy since you can still make them pretty much unbeatable. Or else go buy a bunch of Grey Knights and limit yourself to playing only Daemon & Tyranid players.

Outside of that, every so-called 'cheese list' has at least one or two hard-counters and/or ways to get around their chosen gimmick. (ie: Missilefang spam dies horrifically to things like Drop Pods or DoA's/Dante strike force.)

if you like painting then orks can be fun and my friend is working on them now but he gets super tired of doing 20 heads one day then 20 torsos the next then 20 choppas because he is slowly working on painting up 100 boyz. plus all his trukks and jet.

The obvious non cheese but legitimatly most powerful and hounourable army in the universe, the Space Wolves. The true sons of Russ and warriors of Fenris! Why have anything else?