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 Vaktathi wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Peolle whine about Mat Wadd for lack of anything intelligent to complain about.

Or...get this... it could be that there are in fact legitimate issues with his work.

The hate didn't come from nowhere

it's certainly rare from the players of his codexes...

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Peolle whine about Mat Wadd for lack of anything intelligent to complain about.

Or...get this... it could be that there are in fact legitimate issues with his work.

The hate didn't come from nowhere

it's certainly rare from the players of his codexes...

My friend jokes about putting a sharpie to the first page of his Necrons codex.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Peolle whine about Mat Wadd for lack of anything intelligent to complain about.

Or...get this... it could be that there are in fact legitimate issues with his work.

The hate didn't come from nowhere

Except he's gotten hate every since it became popular to hate on him. Despite the other two providing poor, if not just as bad examples as he could.

Other authors aren't as consistent about it. Kelly had some awful fluff and rules with Space Wolves, but otherwise hasn't gotten particularly derpy. Cruddace is bad at rules but his fluff, while not particularly inspired, doesn't read like bad internet fanfic either. Not only are Ward's balances often off, his rules are really very gimmicky, and he's rather consistent in his work with gimmicky rules and bad fluff, other's have their moments but not all the time.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Peolle whine about Mat Wadd for lack of anything intelligent to complain about.

Or...get this... it could be that there are in fact legitimate issues with his work.

The hate didn't come from nowhere

it's certainly rare from the players of his codexes...

When you're getting a slew of new ridiculous toys, there's probably a reason. That said, you will hear complaints about the fluff even from players of Ward books, I know I have certainly heard and read them with not uncommon regularity.

Other authors aren't as consistent about it. Kelly had some awful fluff and rules with Space Wolves, but otherwise hasn't gotten particularly derpy.

You havn't played 4th edition Eldar Skimmerspam armies then have you? Back when they were the GK of the 4th edition. Not to mention his White Dwarf update to Chaos Codex with some completely asinine rules.

Cruddace is bad at rules but his fluff, while not particularly inspired, doesn't read like bad internet fanfic either. Not only are Ward's balances often off, his rules are really very gimmicky, and he's rather consistent in his work with gimmicky rules and bad fluff, other's have their moments but not all the time.

Cruddace only has rules, he has never been consistant in ANY sort of balance, worse then ward. Either they are top tier (IG) or low tier (SoB, Tyranids). His rules could be called quite gimmicky as well, considering what he turned Acts of faith into, and how he butchered Tyranids link to each other. Not to mention his wargear costs are bar none the worst, considering SoB still have to live with 20 point H.flamers, and tyranids with some gack wargear costs on their MC's and even basic troops.

Considering you can honestly only say Ward has it all the time. Because he's had mid tier dex's, (BA, SM), while Cruddace can't even call one to his name that is even halfway balanced with any sort of internal or external consistency.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Peolle whine about Mat Wadd for lack of anything intelligent to complain about.

Or...get this... it could be that there are in fact legitimate issues with his work.

The hate didn't come from nowhere

it's certainly rare from the players of his codexes...

The people benefiting from his rules aren't complaining about them? My word!

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Other authors aren't as consistent about it. Kelly had some awful fluff and rules with Space Wolves, but otherwise hasn't gotten particularly derpy.

You havn't played 4th edition Eldar Skimmerspam armies then have you? Back when they were the GK of the 4th edition.

I very much have and very much remember, but Kelly's book wasn't too different in terms of skimmer capability from what came before it, the vehicles and wargear didn't really change from the older books, and in large part was a symptom of the core rules for skimmers of the time. Could he have done better? Yes, but the 4E skimmer rules were also stupid.

Not to mention his White Dwarf update to Chaos Codex with some completely asinine rules.

Which one would that be? I honestly don't remember

Cruddace only has rules, he has never been consistant in ANY sort of balance, worse then ward. Either they are top tier (IG) or low tier (SoB, Tyranids). His rules could be called quite gimmicky as well, considering what he turned Acts of faith into, and how he butchered Tyranids link to each other. Not to mention his wargear costs are bar none the worst, considering SoB still have to live with 20 point H.flamers, and tyranids with some gack wargear costs on their MC's and even basic troops.

When it comes to the SoB list, I have a hard time counting that one as every WD list has basically been awful no matter who wrote it be it SoB, BA's, Warriors of Chaos, etc. GW just seems to have no interest in making those lists playable. Had Ward wrtitten it, I'd give him a pass on it too.

Now, I never said Cruddace was perfect by any means, and his internal balance is awful, but his rules rarely are gimmicky in the way Ward's are. You don't have the army-wide abilities for what amounts to a 20 or 30pt points premium on a single HQ or silly things like the Stormlord's "I can hit anything anywhere and it doesn't matter if I'm dead or not, it just happens!" or Purifiers "all I need is one dude to get in contact with your ork mob and half of them die!".

Considering you can honestly only say Ward has it all the time. Because he's had mid tier dex's, (BA, SM), while Cruddace can't even call one to his name that is even halfway balanced with any sort of internal or external consistency.

BA are only mid tier now because of the changes in the core ruleset, they certainly weren't mid-tier last edition and had a lot of ridiculous stuff going on. SM's only got outdone because following SM books were "SM's+1", for a while it was All Vulkan, All Thunderhammer Termi's, All the Time. After the SM book came out I literally did not play against an SM army that did not include Vulkan basically up until Space Wolves came out a year later.

 Vaktathi wrote:
When it comes to the SoB list, I have a hard time counting that one as every WD list has basically been awful no matter who wrote it be it SoB, BA's, Warriors of Chaos, etc. GW just seems to have no interest in making those lists playable. Had Ward wrtitten it, I'd give him a pass on it too.

Actually, the best codex for SOB was the 3rd edition WD SOB codex which was collected in Chapter Approved 2001. Most flavorful, best faith acts, TWO troops choices. It was crazy fun and good.

It's easy to score cheap internet points by doing what others do, and saying how much you like the things that other people like. So people get all warm and fuzzy by joining in the Mat-Ward-hate circle-jerk.

Oh, they come up with all sorts of reasons, but those reasons always apply equally to every other piece of background lore and every other codex writer. The only reason the Mat Ward hate is so visible is because it's attained such momentum. By now, anyone defending him is literally hitler and everyone who rabidly froths at the mouth about how terrible he is, and how his writing gave them cancer, gets a round of internet high-fives and pats on the back.

The whole thing really grinds my gears.

The level of vitriol, the personal attacks and the pure hatred directed towards him are entirely embarrassing.

 Kaldor wrote:
literally hitler

I lol'd right before I exalted your post.

 pretre wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
When it comes to the SoB list, I have a hard time counting that one as every WD list has basically been awful no matter who wrote it be it SoB, BA's, Warriors of Chaos, etc. GW just seems to have no interest in making those lists playable. Had Ward wrtitten it, I'd give him a pass on it too.

Actually, the best codex for SOB was the 3rd edition WD SOB codex which was collected in Chapter Approved 2001. Most flavorful, best faith acts, TWO troops choices. It was crazy fun and good.

WD was a lot different then as well in early/mid 3rd edition, the tail end of 3rd/beginning of 4th was when it went to total pot and in the last 8 or 9 years they just haven't particularly cared too much.

 Kaldor wrote:
It's easy to score cheap internet points by doing what others do, and saying how much you like the things that other people like. So people get all warm and fuzzy by joining in the Mat-Ward-hate circle-jerk.

Oh, they come up with all sorts of reasons, but those reasons always apply equally to every other piece of background lore and every other codex writer. The only reason the Mat Ward hate is so visible is because it's attained such momentum. By now, anyone defending him is literally hitler and everyone who rabidly froths at the mouth about how terrible he is, and how his writing gave them cancer, gets a round of internet high-fives and pats on the back.

The whole thing really grinds my gears.

The level of vitriol, the personal attacks and the pure hatred directed towards him are entirely embarrassing.

Perhaps there's a reason it's gotten to the level it has? People have complained about codex authors before, virulently even. It's difficult to believe it's simple inertia here. Kelly, Johnson, Thorpe, Cavatore, etc never got as much hate even when botching things badly (e.g. the 4E CSM book).

No, simply ascribing it to bandwagon behavior is...disingenuous.

 Kaldor wrote:
It's easy to score cheap internet points by doing what others do, and saying how much you like the things that other people like. So people get all warm and fuzzy by joining in the Mat-Ward-hate circle-jerk.

Oh, they come up with all sorts of reasons, but those reasons always apply equally to every other piece of background lore and every other codex writer. The only reason the Mat Ward hate is so visible is because it's attained such momentum. By now, anyone defending him is literally hitler and everyone who rabidly froths at the mouth about how terrible he is, and how his writing gave them cancer, gets a round of internet high-fives and pats on the back.

The whole thing really grinds my gears.

The level of vitriol, the personal attacks and the pure hatred directed towards him are entirely embarrassing.

And yet, by attacking the arguers, aren't you dropping yourself down to the same level?

This is why we're never going to have an actual debate about this, because the bandwagon and the counter culture it spawned will attack each other at any moment, drowning any legitiment point with "Your opinion is bad and you should feel bad for having it"

Because fluff-wise he is terrible, while your mileage might vary concerning his crunch, his fluff is nigh-universally considered a pile of manure (The Necron codex occasionally gets an exception to this), except by certain individuals.

Considering Necrons are his most recent creation, it may mark a gradual improvement in his fluff.

I'm still not totally sold on a complete rewrite of a faction, and it's a trifle too egyptian for me, but it isn't a pile of manure and bad fanfiction like Grey Knights, Blood Angels and Ultramarines.

The only redeeming parts of the fluff in those codexes are what was kept from previous authors and established lore that he simply couldn't overturn.

In fact, I'd say the Marine codex's focus on the UM is probably my biggest complaint, but then that was also his first codex, so the trend is improvement, even if it is slower than I'd like, and will not expunge the mistakes which preceded it.

I havent seen the new necrons codex, but i can speak for grey knights. the units, they can be over powered and when done right (wrong?) they can be unbeatable. Game comes to mind shortly after i picked up the new codex i used 5 paladins to wipe out 500+ points of chaos in a very short period of time. but that's forgivable. what isnt is what he did in their fluff. the most pure warriors in the galaxy butchered some SoB and basically bathed in their blood to become more pure. i could get past the perfect people and i could get past the op, but contradicting the fluff on the most basic level. It just aint right

Which brings up a possible compromise, since he obviously brings in huge sales in his new armies, and some of the units that come in are pretty cool i say, keep him for the rules but get someone else for the fluff. you know solid compromise get good fluff and maybe not the best rules but still good fluff

gh05tdemon wrote:
the most pure warriors in the galaxy butchered some SoB and basically bathed in their blood to become more pure

Don't even go there.

Re: Kelly & 4th edition Eldar.
Most people don't know this, but the 4th ed Eldar codex was completely re-writen on Phil while he was on sabatical for 3 months. He was actually quite shocked and not too pleased that this had happened, but it was Jervis' call and it was ment to shift all codicies into the short-lived and god-awful Eldar-CSM-DA style set-up. Limited options, 0 wargear and overall tastesless, barebones armylists.
As for Skimmers being OP, that's hardly Kelly's fault, considering he couldn't alter the core rules which were the main problem. Just like how all Razorbacks & Chimeras were OP in 5th, due to how forgiving the glancing hits table was combined with a super cheap pts cost that allowed over-saturation in every Imperial force.



As for Ward...

He sucks because he only killed an entire edition of Fantasy with that disgusting pile of fecal matter, Chaos Daemons.
That book was so brokenly over-powered a developmentally challenged 6 year old could pilot the army while blindfolded.

Yes, VC's had the gimmick of a single Deathstar unit and could play the very boring pts denial game, and Dark Elves had the 'unkillable Dreadlord', double Hydras & Shadestar, but even those got b slapped and raped through eye by a competitive Daemons list.

Then he wrote 8th edition which was ment to nerf Daemons and make them sane... Except, the rules only brought them (almost) down to the level of everyone else, but Undead got so hienously screwed over GW had to rush the Tomb King & VC books to the front of the re-writes pile!
Oh, and the rulebook Magic Lores he wrote break the game... Lore of Shadows & Life are 'I-win' buttons, while Death isn't far behind. (it's lost some due to the outright nerfing of the Power Scroll)


On the 40k front, he gave Codex: 'Marines +1' with Blood Angels. Mephiston, Blendernaughts, adding Meltaguns to TROOP Assault Squads AND 'free' asscan/las+plas turrets to their Razorbacks... Army-wide FnP + Furious Charge, Deep Striking land raider silliness...
BA's weren't much fun to fight in 5th, and the army left almost all Vanilla players feeling kicked in the teeth just because they didn't paint their marines red. The only reason to even stick with Codex Marines once BA's hit was because you played; a) A Vulkan list. b) A biker list. c) A Pedro/Sternguard list. Everything else BA's did better and cheaper.

Grey Knights became to 5th edition what Daemons of Chaos were to 7th edition. Basically, GK's in 5th had a hard-counter to everything, and combating their three main playstyles, (Draigowing, Crowewing, Hencemen spam), required a very, very different type of list.
Thus, non-GK players had pretty much no hope of building a TAC list because at least one of the three main archetypes of the GK powerlists would easily trash you. Meanwhile, GK's had easy answers to everything under the sun.

And us poor Daemon players still can't even deploy against GK's due to how obsurdly broken Warp Quake is. A 10 man Strike Squad can pretty much auto-win if they go first against any Daemon army if you're smart about it...

Too late.

He did

Wow. Exaggeration.

We hate Matt Ward for many reasons, he is a fairly easy target.

I personally hate him because he took the Grey Knights, which I started back in 3e when we had all metal models and required 50pt Justicars, and made them into the chosen punching bag for everyone to gripe about. I am very happy with some of the rules changes. I play Grey Knights in a friendly manner, I do not use Special Characters, I have one Paladin squad and no Purifiers, yet people I have never met and never played decide I'm a fanboyish bandwagon-jumping munchkin from the start just based on the name of my army.

And that's before going into the absurdities of his fluff. Matt Ward is welcome to write his characters however he wants, but when he starts telling us that we all must adore his characters as the paramount examples of all we should be, that is where things start to go wrong. It is far from where they stop.

I could go on for days, but I've covered the important parts and anyone who's paying attention to this post would get fairly bored, so I'll stop here.

So you hate Matt ward because of the action of other people who hate Matt ward? Good times.

 pretre wrote:
So you hate Matt ward because of the action of other people who hate Matt ward? Good times.

Not exactly. He built a list and fluff that attracted obnoxious munchkins to my army, thereby harming my credibility as a gamer, and he writes really, really bad fluff. The actions of the other people are rational responses to Matt Ward's sins, which put him at the root cause.

Well, Because we need a focus for our anger, Matt ward isnt that bad, he is just the focus for ALL our hatred at GW. He is our Meg.

 pretre wrote:
Wow. Exaggeration.

Who, me?

 AnomanderRake wrote:
We hate Matt Ward for many reasons, he is a fairly easy target.

I personally hate him because he took the Grey Knights, which I started back in 3e when we had all metal models and required 50pt Justicars, and made them into the chosen punching bag for everyone to gripe about. I am very happy with some of the rules changes. I play Grey Knights in a friendly manner, I do not use Special Characters, I have one Paladin squad and no Purifiers, yet people I have never met and never played decide I'm a fanboyish bandwagon-jumping munchkin from the start just based on the name of my army.

And that's before going into the absurdities of his fluff. Matt Ward is welcome to write his characters however he wants, but when he starts telling us that we all must adore his characters as the paramount examples of all we should be, that is where things start to go wrong. It is far from where they stop.

I could go on for days, but I've covered the important parts and anyone who's paying attention to this post would get fairly bored, so I'll stop here.

I started with the demonhunters codex, first army i ever touched, and honestly my first introduction to 40k. it was like he punched my love of them in the gonads. i still love grey knights, just wish this codex never happened. this isnt fanboy hate. i would hate him even if they rest of the world loved him. he made grey knights horrible

(yes i realize they werent the friendliest army before and the anti demon rules where kinda cheese but still)

If they'd just keep him the feth away from the lore and ICs, I wouldn't have a problem with him. Besides, if you're playing with friends, how hard is to just avoid the one or two cheese units per army, and enjoy what are otherwise enjoyable codexes? I've got a mate who runs a great oldschool Daemonhunters list using the Grey Knights codex; lots of henchmen, specialist troops, and usually only a single unit of standard termies. We've got a bunch of 'Cron players, and the most croissants I've ever seen on the table is 3, which is hardly game-breaking.

Yeah, but that is level-headed thinking doesn't let anyone complain about the OP cheese, lol.

I in fact love the Eldar codex other than it has several units that are over-costed (like Shining Spears). My Eldar army was always incapable of Skimmerspam, too, with only two possible grav tanks and one Vyper.

I'm going to start my own phil kelly hate band wagon every time he is rumoured to start a new book, see how far we can get that train going (sarcasm over)

But in all seriousness, long fang spam has screwed me over way more than any of the ward dexs, and vendetta spam.

I agree with what kaldor had to say, and he summed it up nicely.

Fluff you can change, rules you cant. If you look at all his codexs in a vacuum, they are all pretty much balanced against each other, maybe he should write every codex from now on, just get someone else to write the fluff, and we would have a balanced game

It's not just the "facts" of the fluff (which, can be pretty awful as well), but the way he writes it. It reads badly, like it was written by an over-excited 12 year old with an internet connection. Kelly had this issue with Space Wolves as well and as a result that book has also gotten a lot of it's fair criticism.

Notice however, for all the complaints about other books, people don't bitch about the Black Templars fluff, or the Imperial Guard fluff, or the Dark Eldar fluff (aside from a couple things about Vect), Ork fluff, Chaos Daemon fluff, Eldar fluff, etc.

This doesn't come from nowhere. Ward's writing style is more akin to bad internet fanfic than anything else, and that's why he (and Kelly with SW's) get a lot of flak for it.

That and in some places he has gone over the line even for 40k, past the point of "hey this is cool" and into "ok, now this is starting to read like something I'd see on 4chan"


Again, lets face it, the hate didn't come from nowhere, and it's not like others writers haven't gotten bad reactions before either. Trying to merely chalk it up to bandwagon behavior and the like is being disingenuous.

It's also hard to say all his books are balanced against each other, compare C:SM to C:GK and you'll see what I mean.

Ok, well vanilla marines is an old book, but Necrons, grey knights, blood angels are all relatively balanced.

But again, this is a sci-fi game with pretty much anything goes, so the fluff is expected to be like that. I dont want to sound like a mat ward fan boy, becasue I'm not, and I agree that some of his work is not ver good. I just feel that all the writers are as bad as each other, and he is just the scapegoat.

 GimbleMuggernaught wrote:

The people benefiting from his rules aren't complaining about them? My word!

That's a bit unfair. Players are often reluctant to exploit obviously OP rules and stats. I have a friend who simply didn't play GK in 5th because they were that OP. Similarly I played a couple of games with the new Flamer units and quickly got bored because they're so obviously overpowered.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Trying to merely chalk it up to bandwagon behavior and the like is being disingenuous.

Insisting that it's deserved and merit based is more so.

The background he writes is no worse than anyone else in the studio.