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Fling, I had forgotten about the furioso libby, but I think that is a case of GW ruling that the options listed are for x unit, not y unit, rather than dictating an order of operations, or lack thereof.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Ba faq page 4 first question. Wording for furioso librarian is replaces all equipment with... This means you cannot purchase any other equipment. So guess what replaces all weapons means for purchasing more weapons...

Thing is, the wording was effectively the same in the old Dark Angels codex: "Any model may replace its weapons with either a pair of lightning claws, or a thunder hammer and storm shield".

It doesn't say "all" but it's implicit in the fact that it just says "its weapons" and doesn't specify any subset of that group, so they have already been trading all their weapons for a whole edition, and during that time, they were FAQ'd as being able to still take a Cyclone afterwards, I think if any FAQ should be applied to the situation it's the old one that dealt with the exact same situation, and said it was perfectly fine.

I still maintain it's legal.

1. DWT is armed with Stormbolter and Powerfist.
2. DWT replaces all his (current) weapons with a TH/SS
3. DWT adds a CML.
Easy.
At the point where I got the TH/SS I didn't have the CML so didn't replace it.
I don't need to exchange any weapons to add the CML, so what I am equipped with is irrelevant.

Taking a CML does not require you to replace any weapons. It's an extra piece of wargear that gets mounted to a terminator's shoulders. "Replace all weapons" translates into "You only have two hands, if you want a TH/SS you have to drop your SB/PF".

Anyone across the table from me who says otherwise would get to watch me pack up my models and go find someone who actually wants to enjoy a game.

your Quote"

Ba faq page 4 first question. Wording for furioso librarian is replaces all equipment with... This means you cannot purchase any other equipment. So guess what replaces all weapons means for purchasing more weapons... "

Just because you are pissing me off. Equipment is not weapons therefore your argument is invalid. Show me anywhere where it states the rules for purchasing equipment are identical for purchasing weapons and you might have a slim frigging hope in hell of arguing this one.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Ba faq page 4 first question. Wording for furioso librarian is replaces all equipment with... This means you cannot purchase any other equipment. So guess what replaces all weapons means for purchasing more weapons...

Yes, you replace weapons first. Then you purchase a weapon. Bingo you have fulfilled BOTH rules.

Prove you have not. Prove that the "replace all weapons" is a continuing effect - some form of actual rules would be helpful from you at some poiint in this debate.

This is absurd. "Replace all weapons" is pretty straightforward. All weapons means all weapons, not just the weapons you purchased prior to upgrading. In order to be armed with a TH/SS, ALL weapons are replaced, period.

There really is far, far, far too much creative interpretation going on in this game.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Ba faq page 4 first question. Wording for furioso librarian is replaces all equipment with... This means you cannot purchase any other equipment. So guess what replaces all weapons means for purchasing more weapons...

Yes, you replace weapons first. Then you purchase a weapon. Bingo you have fulfilled BOTH rules.

Prove you have not. Prove that the "replace all weapons" is a continuing effect - some form of actual rules would be helpful from you at some poiint in this debate.

Prove that you have.
When you place the model on the table, he's got one set of gear that said you had to replace all weapons, and somehow, another weapon. The moment you place that model on the table, you have failed to replace all weapons. I don't see anything that shows a sequence in purchasing.
Some units (take Ork Boyz for example) can only take transports if they number x or less models (12 for the boyz). Are you saying that I could buy 12 ork boyz, buy the transport, then buy more boyz? At the time I bought the transport, the unit only had 12 boyz in it...

-Matt

The model DID replace all weapons - he then purchased another one.

SW GH and purchasing 2 x special weapons. Which one is the free, or cheaper, one? Determined entirely by the order
Shootaboyz nob with a powerklaw. Order is important, and is upheld here

1) REplace all weapons - rule satisfied. Rule condition has no continuing tense, just a directive that you have fulfilled. PROVE that it must continue - ACTUALLY PROVE IT.
2) Add a CML. Rule satisfied.
Exactly the same thing here.

Everyone that denies the CML TH&SS simply is ignoring this previous GW ruling that clearly illustrates there is timing in the purchasing of weapons.

FAQ Orks

Q. If a Boyz mob exchange sluggas and choppas with shootas, can a
Nob take a power klaw or a big choppa? (p100)
A. You may upgrade the Nob to have a big choppa or power
klaw before you choose to upgrade the mob to have shootas, in
which case the Nob is not affected by the mob’s weapon swap
(as he no longer has a choppa to swap), does not receive a
shoota and keeps his slugga and power klaw/big choppa
instead.

Therefore swap your weapons then buy a CML easy as math.

C:SM pg64 in the description of the Cyclone allows for firing of both the cyclone and stormbolter.
C:SM pg136 shows that the cyclone does not replaces anything, unlike the assault cannon or heavy flamer which replace the storm bolter.
The Faq allows for a model to have a relic blade (2handed) and SS.
Haven't seen the DA dex as yet but the precident here is apparent.

I suppose the real question would be is it worth the points to put a cyclone on what is a dedicated CC model....?

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
This is absurd. "Replace all weapons" is pretty straightforward. All weapons means all weapons, not just the weapons you purchased prior to upgrading. In order to be armed with a TH/SS, ALL weapons are replaced, period.

There really is far, far, far too much creative interpretation going on in this game.

Don't blame the players for expecting what is effectively the same wording to get the same result as it did last edition.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 helgrenze wrote:
I suppose the real question would be is it worth the points to put a cyclone on what is a dedicated CC model....?

TH/SS + Cyclone is arguably the best way to have a cyclone in your unit because it makes your heavy weapon guy more durable, and now that you have split fire, it's going to generally be rare that your Cyclone will be firing at things that it's worth shooting storm bolters at.

canadianguy wrote:
your Quote"

Ba faq page 4 first question. Wording for furioso librarian is replaces all equipment with... This means you cannot purchase any other equipment. So guess what replaces all weapons means for purchasing more weapons... "

Just because you are pissing me off. Equipment is not weapons therefore your argument is invalid. Show me anywhere where it states the rules for purchasing equipment are identical for purchasing weapons and you might have a slim frigging hope in hell of arguing this one.

You are incorrect in this assumption. The Furioso ceases to be a Furioso when the Librarian upgrade is purchased, just like apothecaries, and champs can't take heavies in the DW Command squad. The Furioso becomes a Furioso Librian and can no longer purchase furioso upgrades.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The model DID replace all weapons - he then purchased another one.

SW GH and purchasing 2 x special weapons. Which one is the free, or cheaper, one? Determined entirely by the order
Shootaboyz nob with a powerklaw. Order is important, and is upheld here

1) REplace all weapons - rule satisfied. Rule condition has no continuing tense, just a directive that you have fulfilled. PROVE that it must continue - ACTUALLY PROVE IT.
2) Add a CML. Rule satisfied.
Exactly the same thing here.

But by this logic, Boyz could buy trukks, then increase their number above 12. As others have pointed out, crossing FAQ's between armies sometimes gives you the same answers, sometimes different.
Until the most recent FAQ, tyranids could only disembark 2" from a spore pod. Now it's been re-FAQ'd to 6.

HawaiiMatt wrote:
Until the most recent FAQ, tyranids could only disembark 2" from a spore pod. Now it's been re-FAQ'd to 6.

What does this have to do with anything?

Of course a CML can be added to TH/SS. To try to interpret otherwise is ridiculous. But I guess thats what we do. Of course when we force GW to FAQ it all the naysayers will just go away and say nothing. I've seen it happen times than I care to remember... Common sense has to be FAQ'd.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 helgrenze wrote:
C:SM pg64 in the description of the Cyclone allows for firing of both the cyclone and stormbolter.
C:SM pg136 shows that the cyclone does not replaces anything, unlike the assault cannon or heavy flamer which replace the storm bolter.
The Faq allows for a model to have a relic blade (2handed) and SS.
Haven't seen the DA dex as yet but the precident here is apparent.

I suppose the real question would be is it worth the points to put a cyclone on what is a dedicated CC model....?

Helz, if you read the CML entry in C: DA it mentions firing a SB with a CML as well. So there is method to your madness.

Hawaii - you do realise a spod is not a vehicle, right? Hence why it has its own rules it is bound by, and why they had to FAQ it to 6".

FInd an error in this logic that is backed up by TWO DIFFERENT FAQs, both stating a key point - that order matters.

HawaiiMatt wrote:
But by this logic, Boyz could buy trukks, then increase their number above 12.

No the logic doesn't lead to that conclusion because once they become a mob of 13 orks, the trukk becomes an invalid option and you end up with an illegal army list, the same as when you upgrade your Nob with Bosspole to a Painboy you make the army list illegal by having an illegal combination of wargear.

P.S: Strawmen are a bad technique for debating.

So everyone is going to continue to ignore the one faq that is about the same wording as this example? Yes other faqa that are about totally different wording could lead to different conclusions. But the wording is clear all means all as proven by the furioso faq. Order does not allow breaking of the rules juat lile a squad of 20 csm cant have a rhino even if they purchased
it before upgrading the squad numbers...

 FlingitNow wrote:
So everyone is going to continue to ignore the one faq that is about the same wording as this example? Yes other faqa that are about totally different wording could lead to different conclusions. But the wording is clear all means all as proven by the furioso faq. Order does not allow breaking of the rules juat lile a squad of 20 csm cant have a rhino even if they purchased
it before upgrading the squad numbers...

Considering you yourself ignored the part where people adresses and rebutted the Furioso argument I've got some problems taking you seriously...

 FlingitNow wrote:
So everyone is going to continue to ignore the one faq that is about the same wording as this example? Yes other faqa that are about totally different wording could lead to different conclusions. But the wording is clear all means all as proven by the furioso faq. Order does not allow breaking of the rules juat lile a squad of 20 csm cant have a rhino even if they purchased
it before upgrading the squad numbers...

So a furioso is the same as a furioso librarian? Odd, the rules say they are different.

Seems like you need to reread the rules, one more time.

To further poopoo the Furioso example. Notice that in the BA dex it says Upgrade to a Furioso Librarian, like a Veteran Sergent upgrade, or Apothecary Upgrade, or Champion Upgrade etc. It becomes a different model, its not a mater of timing its a mater of its a different model and the war gear options are no longer available.

A deathwing terminator does not become a different model when it upgrades to TH and SS so it is a mater of timing as it can purchase a Cyclone still.

 FlingitNow wrote:
So everyone is going to continue to ignore the one faq that is about the same wording as this example? Yes other faqa that are about totally different wording could lead to different conclusions. But the wording is clear all means all as proven by the furioso faq. Order does not allow breaking of the rules juat lile a squad of 20 csm cant have a rhino even if they purchased
it before upgrading the squad numbers...

Are you going to continue to ignore the people stating that the 4th ed FAQ specifically allowed TH/SS/CML?

Why is the 4th ed faq relevant? There was no use of the word all. Or is belial only 130 points because he was in 4th. Can the apothecary still have a power fist like in 4th...

The codex has changed. Cml and th/ss is no longer allowed. Deal with it.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Why is the 4th ed faq relevant? There was no use of the word all. Or is belial only 130 points because he was in 4th. Can the apothecary still have a power fist like in 4th...

The codex has changed. Cml and th/ss is no longer allowed. Deal with it.

Citation needed. Deal with it.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Why is the 4th ed faq relevant? There was no use of the word all. Or is belial only 130 points because he was in 4th. Can the apothecary still have a power fist like in 4th...

The codex has changed. Cml and th/ss is no longer allowed. Deal with it.

WRong, it is allowed, as has been proven. Deal with it

More specifically - realise you are wrong, and gracefully back down. A Furioso Librarian is NOT a Furioso, same as a Deathwing Sargeant is NOT a Deathwing Terminator. THAT is why it cannot take ****FURIOSO**** upgrades - because it is nto a furioso any longer

That is why that FAQ is not relevant, and your argument is still refuted. I and others HAVE noted that you refuse to engage on this point, and just make blanket statements with no rules support, in violation of the tenets of YMDC

have you read the blood Angels codex? the furioso upgrades make no mention of a furioso dread. your strawman argument is flawed.

th/ss requires you replacing ALL your weapons. not just the weapons you have when you make the upgrades but all. the only precedent we have for this language is the furioso. guess what the faq said. it rather unsurprisingly ruled that all means all. prove that all doesn't mean all or that the Cml is not part of the set of all weapons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The upgrades for the furioso make no mention of a furioso being able to take them. That is why that strawman was ignored. The wording of replaces all only occurs in one other place and gw faq'd that to mean that all meant ALL. please give a citation that all does not mean all.

So how can a powerklaw nob in a shoota boy unit havea powerklaw? ALL sluggas must be exchanged for shootas, remember?

Oh thats why, because timing and order matters.
1) I replace ALL weapons - rule satisfied
2) I add a CML - rule satisfied

Prove that 1) reactivates. Prove it, now, as you have been asked repeatedly. Actual rules showing tha tthis rule exists at all times.

It clearly says all. The ork faq states you can do stuff before an all clause but not after. prove with any rules or example that you can make changes to an ALL Clause after it has been activated.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Why is the 4th ed faq relevant? There was no use of the word all. Or is belial only 130 points because he was in 4th. Can the apothecary still have a power fist like in 4th...

The codex has changed. Cml and th/ss is no longer allowed. Deal with it.

Because the word all is implicit in the old wording, or are you genuinely saying that in the old codex, a Terminator could trade some subset of his weapons, say, just power fist, for a thunder hammer and storm shield to be armed with a thunder hammer, storm shield, and storm bolter...

They might have put the word all in, but it doesn't change the net effect of what the rule is saying, you had to trade all your weapons in the old codex too.