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 washout77 wrote:


Oh! No! I meant like, 40k's story and gameplay in general. So many cliches and missed opportunities. Betrayal was actually pretty well written from what I have heard.

It's one of the best things yet published by GW and her affiliate companies to date.

valace2 wrote:

 washout77 wrote:
It's cool, things tend to get a bit heated when this stuff is being talked about. I don't know what it is, but I just can't get "heated" in an argument.

Kinda sad really. GW has such a great opportunity in front of them with such a great concept and story, but they just let it fail with poor rules writing, poor story explanation, and balance fiascos like this. Thankfully, historical games have been attracting me and my group recently hahahaha.

Wait are you saying Betrayal has poor rules and story explanation? If so, thats not the case . Its a work of art, I wish Games Workshop would put this kind of effort into all of their codices, instead of just giving Deathwing a bunch of sticks and calling them Knights. The new Chaos marine codex is in my opinion very well done, but the Grey Knight, Necron and Dark Angel codices lack any originality at all. Poor rules and story explanation are taking it easy on those two books. How in the hell did they ever come up with Mindshackle scarabs, "here Abbadon fail this roll(which you have a very good shot at failing) and then beat yourself to death. How in the world does that make sense. As I said earlier a lone primarch would take extreme damage from a unit of cheap undercosted flamers. People all over the place complain about Vendettas, but a Vendetta squadron could take down a Thunderhawk Gunship for half the points.

I have wrote up some preheresy lists at 1850 and 2k and they look fun, but can't run them until I finish cleaning frikin resin lol.


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 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
As someone who has actually played 30k with 40k, I can say there isn't to many issues between the two. However you do need to cut "Lord of War" slot from 2000+ games. THAT IS ALL

Honestly, considering some of the cheesy things in 40k, 30k doesn't even surprise me when I'm fighting some of its things. .

You would have to be an extreme asshat to run a primarch in a low point game. I wouldn't run a primarch until at least 3k and only if my opponent had something that could reasonably deal with him. Not that I can, probably won't see Dorn for a couple years.

Also I personally wouldn't run the extra HQ and elite slot, but if you think about it Space Wolves already abuse the HQ slot with 4 choices. The Centurian selection are just to damn sweet. Hard to take a Praetor when you can run so many different versions of the Centurian.


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CaptainGrey wrote: Oh man. Take a breather and relax.

You're getting really salty over internet conversation; kindof silly and unnecessary.

No one disagrees that you can play 30k with 40k. I just finished a game doing just that.

The point is that your OP literally had no significant content in it. It just said stuff that we all already knew.

That doesn't appear to be the case though, I don't believe there is as much of a balance issue as people make it out to be, and FW's explanation of the fine tuning of legion vs legion battles seems to me to be a cop out. Like I said vanilla marines vs vanilla marines how much fine tuning do you need?

CaptainGrey wrote:Edit: And I charge $15 for autographs, plus shipping. Paypal and all major credit cards accepted.

Have to admit nicely done.

This has been discussed... a lot...

The Horus Heresy: Betrayal book can be easily used against a 40k army, as they follow the same rule set. (easier than chess pieces). However, like all Forge World, it requires opponent or TO consent. It can be used in a fun game. If that's your thing, very cool. It can not be used in a tournament, unless said so by th TO.

I do not understand what this is about anymore... it just seems to be people bashing eachother with wit and jabs.

 jifel wrote:
This has been discussed... a lot...

The Horus Heresy: Betrayal book can be easily used against a 40k army, as they follow the same rule set. (easier than chess pieces). However, like all Forge World, it requires opponent or TO consent. It can be used in a fun game. If that's your thing, very cool. It can not be used in a tournament, unless said so by th TO.

I do not understand what this is about anymore... it just seems to be people bashing eachother with wit and jabs.

Yes it has been discussed before, but the debate should continue. A TO can set any rules he wishes. If my opponent agrees I can use my daughters stuffed cookie monster as a custom Orc MC, thats not my point.

My argument is that Betrayal is not nearly as unbalanced as people make it out to be. Its a shame you have to buy these armies in resin, because if it were done with plastics it would be more popular than anything GW has done to date.

I have been playing 40k since Rogue Trader and Betrayal brings back fond memories of Waaagh! the Orks and the original Realms of Chaos books.

Also I personally wouldn't run the extra HQ and elite slot, but if you think about it Space Wolves already abuse the HQ slot with 4 choices. The Centurian selection are just to damn sweet. Hard to take a Praetor when you can run so many different versions of the Centurian.

I would, Space wolves get the four HQ's despite it fitting others (Why can't chaos do this?),

Also the Praetor comes with better stats, the only way to take Rites of War, better wargear options, the only command squad option (which is very good in this one), and his special rules working rather well

I have been considering doing a HH or "30k" army because I think they look awesome to paint and the models are fantastic. However, no one at my FLGS really has one of these armies. Is it worth doing if I would only be playing against a standard codex all the time? Honestly, I really enjoy the modeling and painting aspect of the hobby but if I can never play with the army then I don't know if it would be worth the financial investment.

Since the conversation appears to be steering back on topic (and more friendly), I'm reluctant to close.

That said, earlier in this thread several individuals got a bit heated in their discussion. Consider this the last warning for the thread--and take a break if an online topic about toy soldiers is getting your hair up. Thanks.

I don't think this FAQ says what you think it says.

What I am getting from this is;

FAQ: "No, 30K and 40K are not really meant to be mixed"

Designers Notes: "but please buy our rules and model anyway. You just need to adapt the rules and the FOC among yourselves".

 Weeheee wrote:
I have been considering doing a HH or "30k" army because I think they look awesome to paint and the models are fantastic. However, no one at my FLGS really has one of these armies. Is it worth doing if I would only be playing against a standard codex all the time? Honestly, I really enjoy the modeling and painting aspect of the hobby but if I can never play with the army then I don't know if it would be worth the financial investment.

well that is the universal problem with legion armies. How often will you come across another one?

The answer is probably not very often. Because of the slanders against it and the fact that to do it justice you have to go the forgeworld route they will be rare. If someone wanted to start a preheresy army out of plastic I would play against him in a heartbeat, because I love the legion army list.

They really missed an opportunity here, they should have done the Horus Heresy line in plastic.




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Steelmage99 wrote:
I don't think this FAQ says what you think it says.

What I am getting from this is;

FAQ: "No, 30K and 40K are not really meant to be mixed"

Designers Notes: "but please buy our rules and model anyway. You just need to adapt the rules and the FOC among yourselves".

After using my preheresy Fists against standard Necrons, Dark Eldar, Chaos Marines, Imperial Guard and Blood Angels I don't really see any need to adapt anything.

valace2 wrote:

 Weeheee wrote:
I have been considering doing a HH or "30k" army because I think they look awesome to paint and the models are fantastic. However, no one at my FLGS really has one of these armies. Is it worth doing if I would only be playing against a standard codex all the time? Honestly, I really enjoy the modeling and painting aspect of the hobby but if I can never play with the army then I don't know if it would be worth the financial investment.

well that is the universal problem with legion armies. How often will you come across another one?

The answer is probably not very often. Because of the slanders against it and the fact that to do it justice you have to go the forgeworld route they will be rare. If someone wanted to start a preheresy army out of plastic I would play against him in a heartbeat, because I love the legion army list.

They really missed an opportunity here, they should have done the Horus Heresy line in plastic.

Forge World uses Resin well (Unlike GW) it's thier method, they aren't set up to do plastic molding

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Steelmage99 wrote:
I don't think this FAQ says what you think it says.

What I am getting from this is;

FAQ: "No, 30K and 40K are not really meant to be mixed"

Designers Notes: "but please buy our rules and model anyway. You just need to adapt the rules and the FOC among yourselves".

After using my preheresy Fists against standard Necrons, Dark Eldar, Chaos Marines, Imperial Guard and Blood Angels I don't really see any need to adapt anything.

The fact you have a slightly different FOC IIRC and the fact you can field Demi-Gods in a non-apocalypse game

I also assumed the rules were playtested against other HH lists not 40K ones hence the 'not meant to be mixed' part

Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:
Forge World uses Resin well (Unlike GW) it's thier method, they aren't set up to do plastic molding

Yes I know that resin is Forgeworlds medium, but Games Workshop could have easily done the line in plastic.

Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote: The fact you have a slightly different FOC IIRC and the fact you can field Demi-Gods in a non-apocalypse game

I also assumed the rules were playtested against other HH lists not 40K ones hence the 'not meant to be mixed' part

Also as far as playtesting goes what difference is there between one heresy army to another? The first 4 legions do have some unique rules but they are not gamebreaking. If you play tyranids vs tyranids regardless of whether a unit within has broken units, it should still be a fair fight because both sides have access to it. Legion vs legion works the same exact way, in fact if all you have access to face is another legion army how can that unit be broken? Wouldn't it be standard?

Also the primarch thing has been beaten to death. No one would run a primarch in a smaller game, even Betrayal says that primarchs shouldn't be used in lower than 2000 point games and only when their is something comparable on the other side.

valace2 wrote:
[

Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote: The fact you have a slightly different FOC IIRC and the fact you can field Demi-Gods in a non-apocalypse game

I also assumed the rules were playtested against other HH lists not 40K ones hence the 'not meant to be mixed' part

Also as far as playtesting goes what difference is there between one heresy army to another? The first 4 legions do have some unique rules but they are not gamebreaking. If you play tyranids vs tyranids regardless of whether a unit within has broken units, it should still be a fair fight because both sides have access to it. Legion vs legion works the same exact way, in fact if all you have access to face is another legion army how can that unit be broken? Wouldn't it be standard?

Also the primarch thing has been beaten to death. No one would run a primarch in a smaller game, even Betrayal says that primarchs shouldn't be used in lower than 2000 point games and only when their is something comparable on the other side.

non-apocalypse = <3000
Please not I didn't mention 'small' games

The point is nothing is near par for a Primarch unless you have access to STR D weapons.

And don't the different legions have different rules, hence they are not 'the same' and standard games can still have 'Broken' units in the (Screamers, Flamers, 5th ed Pallies etc)

Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:

non-apocalypse = <3000
Please note I didn't mention 'small' games

The point is nothing is near par for a Primarch unless you have access to STR D weapons.

And don't the different legions have different rules, hence they are not 'the same' and standard games can still have 'Broken' units in the (Screamers, Flamers, 5th ed Pallies etc)

Yes but those rules don't really do that much past the Rites of War a vanilla legion has access to. They have access to some different unit types, but Justaerin terminators are just more expensive cataphracti terminators with access to a multi melta. Dreadclaw drop pods are nice but you can still only carry 1 dreadnought, 5 terminators, or 10 tactical marines. The specific legion rules are not OP.

Now as you mentioned there are plenty of standard units that are broken, but if all you have is daemon vs daemon, would you consider them broken? Both sides would have access to 27 screamers and 27 flamers.

In fact I wish someone would do the math, take Horus vs a full unit of flamers, place the flamers out of Horus charge range and let the flamers get the first shot. Then let them get their overwatch shots against him, break it down though to see how they would do with 1, 2, or 3 overwatch shots from each. If 9 flamers were allowed 27 flamer hits on Horus, around 13-14 would wound and Horus would have to make 13-14 3+ saves. He has 6 wounds but would probably already be wounded from the first 9 flamer hits, and even if he survives the burning he would have to work through 18 wounds of flamers with his 5 attacks. He would be bogged down forever. 500pts worth of Horus would be bogged down by 200 points of flamers.

Or better yet have a Necron lord with Mindshackle scarabs challenge Horus and watch in horror as Horus kills himself.

valace2 wrote:

Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:
Forge World uses Resin well (Unlike GW) it's thier method, they aren't set up to do plastic molding

Yes I know that resin is Forgeworlds medium, but Games Workshop could have easily done the line in plastic.

The older marks of armor would not have looked even slightly as good.

The fact you have a slightly different FOC IIRC and the fact you can field Demi-Gods in a non-apocalypse game

So you don't play Space Wolves then? Four HQ to 30k's three HQ, four elite.

Also, as I said the demi-god slot (The Lord of War) is 2000+, and generally it can be cut. Though at the same time some of the stuff the original lists can put out can easily knock down primarchs (MSS scarabs, screamers, and flamers, lots of dakka) Most can't even be played at 2000, due to their costs needing to be more then 1/4th of the army list (It takes about 2100+ to field most of them comfortably)

 CaptainGrey wrote:

valace2 wrote:

Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:
Forge World uses Resin well (Unlike GW) it's thier method, they aren't set up to do plastic molding

Yes I know that resin is Forgeworlds medium, but Games Workshop could have easily done the line in plastic.

The older marks of armor would not have looked even slightly as good.

I dunno, have you seen the new Deathwing box? Its pretty darn cool. Maybe not as good, but the older marks are pretty simple.

I wouldn't call it unbalanced at all. And Primarchs aren't that scary (on paper). They die to poison like everything else...
I would limit Super Heavies though, because those have a 40k precedent as Apoc only.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

The fact you have a slightly different FOC IIRC and the fact you can field Demi-Gods in a non-apocalypse game

So you don't play Space Wolves then? Four HQ to 30k's three HQ, four elite.

Also, as I said the demi-god slot (The Lord of War) is 2000+, and generally it can be cut. Though at the same time some of the stuff the original lists can put out can easily knock down primarchs (MSS scarabs, screamers, and flamers, lots of dakka) Most can't even be played at 2000, due to their costs needing to be more then 1/4th of the army list (It takes about 2100+ to field most of them comfortably)

Don't mistake me, I am not trying to make the case for primarchs in regular games. Odds are good a primarch will be surrounded by a bodyguard and will be able to LOS any serious threats that come his way. Mindshackle Scarabs are the only thing that could truly hose a primarch as he would have to accept the challenge or not fight.

A primarch surrounded by his bodyguard would be brutal, fact of the matter is though at a lower limit game, say below 2k a primarch would face the same challenge any deathstar already does, not being able to be everywhere at once.

 jifel wrote:
I wouldn't call it unbalanced at all. And Primarchs aren't that scary (on paper). They die to poison like everything else...
I would limit Super Heavies though, because those have a 40k precedent as Apoc only.

As would I even though super heavies have taken a hit thanks to the new vehicle damage chart.

valace2 wrote:

 CaptainGrey wrote:

valace2 wrote:

Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:
Forge World uses Resin well (Unlike GW) it's thier method, they aren't set up to do plastic molding

Yes I know that resin is Forgeworlds medium, but Games Workshop could have easily done the line in plastic.

The older marks of armor would not have looked even slightly as good.

I dunno, have you seen the new Deathwing box? Its pretty darn cool. Maybe not as good, but the older marks are pretty simple.

Mainly MkIII and MKIV would have suffered, as their models use the undercutting technique extensively; one only easily achievable by resin moulds.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

The fact you have a slightly different FOC IIRC and the fact you can field Demi-Gods in a non-apocalypse game

So you don't play Space Wolves then? Four HQ to 30k's three HQ, four elite.

Also, as I said the demi-god slot (The Lord of War) is 2000+, and generally it can be cut. Though at the same time some of the stuff the original lists can put out can easily knock down primarchs (MSS scarabs, screamers, and flamers, lots of dakka) Most can't even be played at 2000, due to their costs needing to be more then 1/4th of the army list (It takes about 2100+ to field most of them comfortably)

I have played SW, they're unique among the Codeci, having 18 more different lists with different FOCs is much bigger.

MSS, Easily countered by putting them in a unit (Which you would have to be an idiot not to do) and have a token sergeant for challenges

Scarabs, Die easily to blasts before they hit combat even then they are wounding on 6s

Screamers and Flamers again need to hit them without a bodyguard which would be unusual

At 15 pts/marine a squad of 20 cost 300 points to hide them effectively against incoming fire on their route to combat

I could see 30K horde foot lists being more commonplace

A primarch surrounded by his bodyguard would be brutal, fact of the matter is though at a lower limit game, say below 2k a primarch would face the same challenge any deathstar already does, not being able to be everywhere at once.

Primarchs cannot legally be taken below 2000. They require the Lord of War slot which is only unlocked at 2000+, and they must be at least 1/4th of the army points. Meaning if you have 2000 and Horus (about 550+) You cannot legally take Horus till the points are higher.

I have played SW, they're unique among the Codeci, having 18 more different lists with different FOCs is much bigger.

18 more? Generally they have the same FoC, aside from +1 HQ, and +1 Elite and LoW

At 15 pts/marine a squad of 20 cost 300 points to hide them effectively against incoming fire on their route to combat

True, of course that means they are Footslogging across the board where anything can start pelting them with large amounts of weaponry. The deathstar is a deathstar up close, but seeing as that 300 (Not counting wargear) would be including at the very least 520 points of primarch that is near literally 1/2 of your list locked in one footslogging horde that is only built around getting your Primarch to combat.

Besides, the full designers note gives full insight into it anyways..

In terms of using Lords of War and the Primarchs, however, these are definitely not intended to be
used in standard Warhammer 40,000 games, but only in games where both sides use the Age of
Darkness Force Organisation chart, and the specific provisions within, and in games of 2,000 points
or greater..

 Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:

At 15 pts/marine a squad of 20 cost 300 points to hide them effectively against incoming fire on their route to combat

I could see 30K horde foot lists being more commonplace

IMHO its the most fun way to play them, since its relatively unique to 30k.

I always use a 20 man blob with apothecary and vexilla to get my Praetor into combat.

Paragon Blade slays face.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Primarchs cannot legally be taken below 2000. They require the Lord of War slot which is only unlocked at 2000+, and they must be at least 1/4th of the army points. Meaning if you have 2000 and Horus (about 550+) You cannot legally take Horus till the points are higher.

Thats not quite what I meant. Legality aside, a primarch would be wasted in a smaller point game because he would be treated as any other deathstar. The enemy would focus all of their attention towards everything else and run like hell from the primarch. You treat the primarch the same way you would a TH/SS terminator squad, and then laugh at him when you win the game 3-1




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 CaptainGrey wrote:

 Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:

At 15 pts/marine a squad of 20 cost 300 points to hide them effectively against incoming fire on their route to combat

I could see 30K horde foot lists being more commonplace

IMHO its the most fun way to play them, since its relatively unique to 30k.

I always use a 20 man blob with apothecary and vexilla to get my Praetor into combat.

Paragon Blade slays face.

The Paragon Blade is an awesome piece of wargear, truly gives you the opportunity to create an awesome IC. If you weren't planning on deepstriking him why would you ever take a Praetor in terminator armour?

valace2 wrote:



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Steelmage99 wrote:
I don't think this FAQ says what you think it says.

What I am getting from this is;

FAQ: "No, 30K and 40K are not really meant to be mixed"

Designers Notes: "but please buy our rules and model anyway. You just need to adapt the rules and the FOC among yourselves".

After using my preheresy Fists against standard Necrons, Dark Eldar, Chaos Marines, Imperial Guard and Blood Angels I don't really see any need to adapt anything.

I am not making any statements as to the validity of the claims made in the FAQ.
I am merely pointing out what I got from the text of said FAQ.

I think that you misrepresented the FAQ, and addressed that.

I just wish the HH line was actually 30k.

To be frank, marine on marine is rather boring, and that's all the HH line will be for a very long time. The distinction between 30k and HH is important.

The model range is compatible, largely, with 40k, so I'll likely at some point add some older armour marks to my Blood Ravens, or some of the wargear as it comes out, but overall, it seems like a missed mark.

However, what I do find interesting is FW produced a core army list which can be used to represent every legion variation, and then provides a condensed set of rules to make the legion variants more distinct. Basically, they've created the combined Marine codex people have been suggesting for 40k for years.

Even without the legion-specific rules, you could make a convincing Imperial Fist, World Eater, Ultramarine, Night Lord and so on army out of the standard Legion list; might not be quite as flavourful as one might like, but serviceable.

So let me get this straight.

You believe that the horus heresy lists can be used in "regular" games, provided you do substantial tweaks and house rules to make it a more balanced and enjoyable experience for everyone.

Most importantly, asking your opponent ahead of time for permission and letting them know how the list works.

...

Isn't this what everyone believed anyways? A cool list you can use for fun scenarios and whatnot, but its not intended for use against the "normal" codexes in a regular match.

If you sat down and put some effort into it I bet there are some really cool scenarios that could be made up causing a 30k army to be pitted against a 40k army.

 TheAvengingKnee wrote:
If you sat down and put some effort into it I bet there are some really cool scenarios that could be made up causing a 30k army to be pitted against a 40k army.

Everytime my Imperial Fists fight my mate's Eldar, I explain it as follows.

"My Imperial Fists Legion encountered some Eldar. Now they're fighting."

Really, fluffwise, most current armies can square off against Legions. The only serious exceptions would be Sisters of Battle, Black Templars, and Tyranids.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
So let me get this straight.

You believe that the horus heresy lists can be used in "regular" games, provided you do substantial tweaks and house rules to make it a more balanced and enjoyable experience for everyone.

Most importantly, asking your opponent ahead of time for permission and letting them know how the list works.

...

Isn't this what everyone believed anyways? A cool list you can use for fun scenarios and whatnot, but its not intended for use against the "normal" codexes in a regular match.

You know the developers themselves say that for normal games, you should either cut the lord of war slot, or play both with the Age of Apocalypse rules.

In terms of using Lords of War and the Primarchs, however, these are definitely not intended to be
used in standard Warhammer 40,000 games, but only in games where both sides use the Age of
Darkness Force Organisation chart, and the specific provisions within, and in games of 2,000 points
or greater.

Boom, Cut that and you have no issue. Or you can play it fully like it should be, with balls to the wall crazy stuff like primarchs and epic level things Though that one requires a bit of preplanning.

Designer’s Note: So if, for example, you wanted to play a battle representing a narrative where the
Sons of Horus Legion fought Orks or Eldar during the Great Crusade, you could quite easily use
those xenos forces’ Warhammer 40,000 Codexes (possibly house-ruled to accommodate larger
squads) to proxy for their Heresy-era counterparts. In this case, however, both sides should be using
the Age of Darkness Force Organisation chart, with the army’s own Apocalypse level units and flyers
available as Lords of War entries following the guidelines found on page 184 of Betrayal.

The original FW statement is so full of inconsistencies it makes this argument look like a competition to be the biggest neckbeard. My personal choice for winner would be the Elysian with sig'd WDL record.