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Isn't the problem that the FLGS sales model doesn't make sense anymore?

What do I get out of an FLGS? Being able to buy models off the shelf is fun, but ultimately I'd probably be even happier having them shipped to my door for less. What I really get out of it is having a nice place to go and play against people I don't necessarily know - a community and a shared gaming space.

That is what I get out of the store, but it's not linked to what actually makes the store money. That seems suboptimal.

The FLGS has, as you said, "a nice place to go and play against people [you] don't necessarily know - a community and a shared gaming space."

What happens if you don't buy from that store? they lose out on some money, now multiply that by 5 players, 10 players, etc... Many of us on Dakka all say, "pay where you play" this is a way to help your local store where you play stay open, so... ya know, you can keep playing there...

The problem is Alf, many of us either dont have a store to play at OR the place is a Sh$%Hole of a place that I wouldnt pee on if it was on fire. Its great that Mik runs an awesome store, but from my travels that not exact the norm, especially in my old state of NY.

Another issue with complaining about Kickstarter, especially involving newer or smaller production companies, is that those FLGSs in general were never going to carry the product to begin with. Kickstarter (or to the same degree, low-cost PDF distribution) enables startup developers to get into the game FAR easier than having to go through the traditional channels.

There are many FLGS's that will not stock product if it is not available from their distributor(s)... and those same distributors will not carry lines that are not already established or aren't coming from a company with significant backing. While that's to be expected, since FLGS's generally don't have the flexibility to take risks on and help promote new product, they have to accept that it works two ways.

The companies that are doing best through Kickstarter would very likely never have gotten to where they are with traditional FLGS support. Going through the Internet for your sales is simply the best way to reach a large audience because you can do it yourself, instead of having to rely on thousands of independent retailers who may or may not give a damn about your product versus whatever brings in the best profit for their space. That's just the new reality, and FLGS's are going to have to find a new way to become relevant just as these small game companies have found a new way.

 Magc8Ball wrote:
Another issue with complaining about Kickstarter, especially involving newer or smaller production companies, is that those FLGSs in general were never going to carry the product to begin with. Kickstarter (or to the same degree, low-cost PDF distribution) enables startup developers to get into the game FAR easier than having to go through the traditional channels.

There are many FLGS's that will not stock product if it is not available from their distributor(s)... and those same distributors will not carry lines that are not already established or aren't coming from a company with significant backing. While that's to be expected, since FLGS's generally don't have the flexibility to take risks on and help promote new product, they have to accept that it works two ways.

The companies that are doing best through Kickstarter would very likely never have gotten to where they are with traditional FLGS support. Going through the Internet for your sales is simply the best way to reach a large audience because you can do it yourself, instead of having to rely on thousands of independent retailers who may or may not give a damn about your product versus whatever brings in the best profit for their space. That's just the new reality, and FLGS's are going to have to find a new way to become relevant just as these small game companies have found a new way.

Yes and no. Reaper was super successful with there bones kickstarter and that surely would be in stores. mantic you can argue yes or no. It really depends and they you compound it with companies launching other expansions with kickstarter it just is a bunch.

From a RPG point of view the pdf download from a manufacturer just devastates FLGS. I mean how can they compete with the digital discount and the ability to have it on a ipad and not lug 3 or 4 pathfinder books around.

Most likely, like someone else mentioned, is that the FLGS model we grew up with is just about done and run its course. A new way of playing needs to take over.

edit: are these kickstarters just a different version of a company trying to control a majority of sales within themselves. Like GW policy on online sales just not as devious?

steve

Honestly, the RPG model has been moving pretty steadily towards PDFs for years even without Kickstarter. FLGSes can still make a decent amount of money on dead tree copies (there's always holdouts, and I've always found it easier to use an index than try my luck with a search function), but RPGs certainly are a bad choice to base your business model on nowadays.

 Magc8Ball wrote:
Another issue with complaining about Kickstarter, especially involving newer or smaller production companies, is that those FLGSs in general were never going to carry the product to begin with. Kickstarter (or to the same degree, low-cost PDF distribution) enables startup developers to get into the game FAR easier than having to go through the traditional channels.

There are many FLGS's that will not stock product if it is not available from their distributor(s)... and those same distributors will not carry lines that are not already established or aren't coming from a company with significant backing. While that's to be expected, since FLGS's generally don't have the flexibility to take risks on and help promote new product, they have to accept that it works two ways.

The companies that are doing best through Kickstarter would very likely never have gotten to where they are with traditional FLGS support. Going through the Internet for your sales is simply the best way to reach a large audience because you can do it yourself, instead of having to rely on thousands of independent retailers who may or may not give a damn about your product versus whatever brings in the best profit for their space. That's just the new reality, and FLGS's are going to have to find a new way to become relevant just as these small game companies have found a new way.

+1 Exalted. You said what needs to be said and I have seen this first hand concerning the distributor end of things as well as doing a few start ups myself. You need wads of cash, a good solid business plan, and a little bit of luck to succeed in this vein of services. Smart LFGS will adapt or it will cease to exist.

I think lots of the bigger name games would have gone through the FLGS....the CMON, Mantic (to some extent), for sure the Reaper. Sure for something completely new or small form a new publisher who is not distributed, then FLGS will hopefully create a bunch of new games, and hopefully a few game that can become hits. That won't necessarily hurt the FLGS, if the first exposure is on Kickstarter and then it goes through regular channels.

The problem I have with the kickstarters has to do more with perceived value. Zombicide looked pretty cool. So did Sedition Wars. But if you missed the kickstarter and find out that you could have had SO MUCH MORE if you had been on the kickstarter, you might find it hard to buy the game at full retail. That makes it harder for retailers to sell it. Reapers bones might not be too bad because the minis will be so small on pricepoint....but finding out that the $100 game with 90 figures could have been yours for $100 with like 210 figures makes it look like a lot less of a deal.

 Empchild wrote:
Honestly it can go either way. I don't carry the in my web store due to the fact I tried and the products didn't sell and the local stores around me have had the same mantic stock from there dredball since it was released.

I know I shouldn't quote from so far back...but this amuses me as I've seen so many people lambast GW for not supporting bloodbowl and other specialty games and yet when mantic steps in the fill in the void they run into the same problem of it just not selling.


That being said, Kickstarters being used as a pre-order system are very much going to affect your FLGS's bottom line if they intend to carry the product as they won't get their hands on it until long after the kickstarter.

 mikhaila wrote:
Yes, Kickstarter hurts stores.

Theoretically, if it helps to promote the creation of new products, it shouldn't. But it's not being used that way. Its just a cash cow now that lets people sell direct to the customer, and 9 times out of 10, kills the market for the game produced.
(Reaper miniatures is a notable exception).

There are many kickstarter games i could care less about carrying. My version of the game will have less stuff coming with it, and generally at a higher price, and of course, much later down the road. The first rush of sales is gone, and most of the excitement about the game is burnt out. I don't bother ordering them.

Honestly, I quick glance shows that most of the gaming KSers I have backed had between 1500 -3500 backers world-wide. So I don't see how anyone can claim that it's killing the market. They wouldn't bother producing these games if the people in the KS were the ONLY ones buying them. And 3500 copies spread about the world means there can't have been that many buyers taken out of your area.

And if you want "your version" of the game to have all the bells and whistles, why not buy a few during the KS like the rest of us? The discount level is such that you could easily sell the main game at RP and make a good 30-50% profit, then divy up all the bells and whistles to sell at a premium. Plus then you'd get your copy ASAP before the excitement has burnt out.

I can see how KSers could hurt a FLGS, but at the same time the only FLGS in my city only has GW, PP and a couple of reaper minis so I couldn't buy this sort of stuff through them anyway. But, I plan to take some of my KS stuff down there once I get it and show it off in the hopes there will be interest and the FLGS can then order stuff for us. There is (an admittedly slim) chance this could help my FLGS, but really it isn't hurting them in my case.

Orktavius wrote:

That being said, Kickstarters being used as a pre-order system are very much going to affect your FLGS's bottom line if they intend to carry the product as they won't get their hands on it until long after the kickstarter.

That is less than accurate in many cases. A lot of the kickstart projects I have seen have levels designed specifically for stores to get a chunk of stock at the kickstart prices and the kickstart release date. Any specific store deciding not to invest in those pledges is not the fault of the folks running the project.