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I got the idea from Warhammer, for which Citadel put out a couple (very ugly) female orc miniatures. And pretty much every other game that has orcs.



This won't be the first or last thread to call attention to GW's apparent sexism. For instance there aren't any female Squats either...oops...there aren't any Squats at all, are there?

On a forum which discusses the perversions of Dark Eldar supporting a gaming company which produces 1 breasted transgendered demon miniatures, you were offended by the words "Trans-Vegetable"? Gimme a break. Next I suppose I'm not allowed to mention the opulent steam bath next to the Ultra-Marines training armory. I got these jokes from a gay gamer in the SF area, btw.

I get it. Orks aren't he's or she's, they're "its". Just like Tyranids, non-Slaanesh demons and Imperial Guard. I just don't think GW likes making female minis unless they're some sort of Elf.

quote=Maxim C. Gatling 522321 5541874 null]I got the idea from Warhammer, for which Citadel put out a couple (very ugly) female orc miniatures. And pretty much every other game that has orcs.

Maxim C. Gatling wrote:
I got the idea from Warhammer, for which Citadel put out a couple (very ugly) female orc miniatures. And pretty much every other game that has orcs.



This won't be the first or last thread to call attention to GW's apparent sexism. For instance there aren't any female Squats either...oops...there aren't any Squats at all, are there?

On a forum which discusses the perversions of Dark Eldar supporting a gaming company which produces 1 breasted transgendered demon miniatures, you were offended by the words "Trans-Vegetable"? Gimme a break. Next I suppose I'm not allowed to mention the opulent steam bath next to the Ultra-Marines training armory. I got these jokes from a gay gamer in the SF area, btw.

I get it. Orks aren't he's or she's, they're "its". Just like Tyranids, non-Slaanesh demons and Imperial Guard. I just don't think GW likes making female minis unless they're some sort of Elf.

Oooo so sexy,

let me guess, it's ginger spice isn't it.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
I could be wrong on moss as I pulled it out at random, I do know there ate asexual plants and I have never in any book seen them labeled as "female"

Its not that you "could" be wrong about moss, it is that you are wrong. I have never in real life met someone that was absolutely shown to be wrong about a minor fact of biology but wasnt emotionally capable of conceding a minor point. I am afraid it is rather hopeless to have a discussion with you if you cannot concede being in error about such a trivial and indisputable fact of biology.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
as fantasy based as 40k is, Orks are wondrously sci-fi in many aspects. They simply do not conform to earth based classification on reproduction. They are not mammals, they are not plants, they are something else, that simply does not fit within earth based classifications.

On the one hand you say they dont fit in with earth based classification of reproduction, but on the other hand you want to call them male which is by the way an "earth based classification on reproduction". Do you not see the inherent logical contradiction you staking claim to?

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
You say I do not in fact know if they produce sexually, which is true and the same goes for you. The books do not say they have one gender, it says they seem male to humans.

The background book on Orks does in fact say they have one gender in a very specific and unambiguous way. If this has been overturned then it is on you to provide a reference.

In regard to whether they produce sexually as defined by meiosis or asexually by strict mitosis or the propagation of vegetative spores without meiosis, one can conclude that they do indeed reproduce sexually. This is because if they reproduced by strict asexual methods all orks would look identical. All the gals (formerly known as boyz) in a warband would look exactly alike, or there would be a few phenotypes if the band descended from more than one clone. Nowhere in any of the background material or art is there any hint that Ork warbands or tribes are comprised of identical looking individuals and in the artwork it is quite apparent that there is morphological diversity.

This means that Orks do use some equivalent of meiosis to rearrange their DNA when producing the spores. So we come back to the fact that they are reproducing parthenogenetically and are thus females.

JWhex wrote:

Its not that you "could" be wrong about moss, it is that you are wrong. I have never in real life met someone that was absolutely shown to be wrong about a minor fact of biology but wasnt emotionally capable of conceding a minor point. I am afraid it is rather hopeless to have a discussion with you if you cannot concede being in error about such a trivial and indisputable fact of biology.

I did not say i was not wrong, I said i could be as I just picked it out of air. Never once did I say you where incorrect about moss.I simply took your word for it that moss and both sexes and did not look it up.

JWhex wrote:

On the one hand you say they dont fit in with earth based classification of reproduction, but on the other hand you want to call them male which is by the way an "earth based classification on reproduction". Do you not see the inherent logical contradiction you staking claim to?

You mean the very same thing you are doing?? Humans call orks male, as they look male for the most part , Orks call themselves orks. Biologically they are sexless.

[

JWhex wrote:


In regard to whether they produce sexually as defined by meiosis or asexually by strict mitosis or the propagation of vegetative spores without meiosis, one can conclude that they do indeed reproduce sexually. This is because if they reproduced by strict asexual methods all orks would look identical. All the gals (formerly known as boyz) in a warband would look exactly alike, or there would be a few phenotypes if the band descended from more than one clone. Nowhere in any of the background material or art is there any hint that Ork warbands or tribes are comprised of identical looking individuals and in the artwork it is quite apparent that there is morphological diversity.

This means that Orks do use some equivalent of meiosis to rearrange their DNA when producing the spores. So we come back to the fact that they are reproducing parthenogenetically and are thus females.

Once more , No. You are doing the very thing you slammed me for twice now. Using earth classifications and biology. They are an engineered race that has a totally alien biology. They are not female, they are not male.

Let me try to make this clear as you seem to fail at understanding it ORKS DO NOT CONFORM TO KNOWN BIOLOGY. They are not earth based, they are a lifeforms created by another lifeforms that itself was unlikely to conform to earth based biology.

JWhex wrote:

In regard to whether they produce sexually as defined by meiosis or asexually by strict mitosis or the propagation of vegetative spores without meiosis, one can conclude that they do indeed reproduce sexually. This is because if they reproduced by strict asexual methods all orks would look identical. All the gals (formerly known as boyz) in a warband would look exactly alike, or there would be a few phenotypes if the band descended from more than one clone. Nowhere in any of the background material or art is there any hint that Ork warbands or tribes are comprised of identical looking individuals and in the artwork it is quite apparent that there is morphological diversity.

This means that Orks do use some equivalent of meiosis to rearrange their DNA when producing the spores. So we come back to the fact that they are reproducing parthenogenetically and are thus females.

Incorrect and correct at the same time. An asexually reproducing species can have a high rate of mutation, resulting in various different aspects. Orks are constantly surrounded by carcinogens, which do not directly affect them, but their spores. In addition, since they've been genetically engineered, their spores may have the ability to randomize their own gene patterns in a form SIMILAR to meiosis, but occurring only within those spores. This does NOT, however, mean that the Ork race reproduces parthenogenetically, as that is, currently, restricted to life-forms that EVOLVED on earth. Gretchin and Squigs are both still Orkoids, and may be spawned from these spores as well, which means that if Orks reproduced via parthenogenesis both subspecies would not exist (even though Squigs were a result of Tyranid experimentation on Ork DNA). You also forget that they are a COMBINATION of animal and fungal DNA, meaning that they can create their own decisions in a fashion similar to how humans have likes and interests and opinion, such as this debate. The Ork clans are formed from Orks who think like-minded, much like a human club or con, and shapes their identities and physical appearances. Most Orks actually DO look the same, but they APPEAR different because they WANT to be different. Ear piercings, scars, missing teef and various sizes are pretty much made by the Ork, save size differentiation. That comes from A. the natural growth of the Ork. And B. their settlement's effect on them (radiation, smoke, etc.).

I can see how you could say that Orks sexually reproduce if you used the Bad Moon clan as an example, as they all have faster-growing teef, but the Bad Moon clan is made up of pirates, vagabonds, and outcasts from the other clans, and some native ones. This means that faster-growing-teef gene is a MUTATION that has only been sustained via ASEXUAL reproduction, since it would've either spread through ALL Orks if they actually sexually reproduced, or died out because regular Orks wouldn't take that as fair.

 Deunstephe wrote:

This does NOT, however, mean that the Ork race reproduces parthenogenetically, as that is, currently, restricted to life-forms that EVOLVED on earth. Gretchin and Squigs are both still Orkoids, and may be spawned from these spores as well, which means that if Orks reproduced via parthenogenesis both subspecies would not exist (even though Squigs were a result of Tyranid experimentation on Ork DNA).

Well there are lots of ways that an Ork could be the result of parthenogenesis and squigs and gretchin also originate from an Ork. One way would be ecophenotypic variation due to different genes being expressed that in turn result in the Ork, Gretchin, or squig phenotype. Or, Orks could be derived by parthenogenesis and squigs and gretchin spores derived from vegetative asexual reproduction from different Ork specialized tissues like freshwater Hydras and other invertebrates. There could even be a feedback system of gene expression that regulates whether a spore born of parthenogenesis becomes an Ork, Gretchin or squig based on pre-existing population densities of the three phenotypes.

 Deunstephe wrote:

I can see how you could say that Orks sexually reproduce if you used the Bad Moon clan as an example, as they all have faster-growing teef, but the Bad Moon clan is made up of pirates, vagabonds, and outcasts from the other clans, and some native ones. This means that faster-growing-teef gene is a MUTATION that has only been sustained via ASEXUAL reproduction, since it would've either spread through ALL Orks if they actually sexually reproduced, or died out because regular Orks wouldn't take that as fair.

Here you are conflating asexual reproduction with inbreeding. Asexual reproduction just means meiosis is not involved. You can have sexual reproduction by parthenogenesis or even in species with two sexes but have such a high rate of inbreeding or low rate of outbreeding that from a population perspective the species is essentially behaving as a clonal system. This is well known in plants and animals.

Also, I thought it was the Freebooters, not Bad Moons that were a mixture of outcasts and pirates?

JWhex wrote:

 Deunstephe wrote:

This does NOT, however, mean that the Ork race reproduces parthenogenetically, as that is, currently, restricted to life-forms that EVOLVED on earth. Gretchin and Squigs are both still Orkoids, and may be spawned from these spores as well, which means that if Orks reproduced via parthenogenesis both subspecies would not exist (even though Squigs were a result of Tyranid experimentation on Ork DNA).

Well there are lots of ways that an Ork could be the result of parthenogenesis and squigs and gretchin also originate from an Ork. One way would be ecophenotypic variation due to different genes being expressed that in turn result in the Ork, Gretchin, or squig phenotype. Or, Orks could be derived by parthenogenesis and squigs and gretchin spores derived from vegetative asexual reproduction from different Ork specialized tissues like freshwater Hydras and other invertebrates. There could even be a feedback system of gene expression that regulates whether a spore born of parthenogenesis becomes an Ork, Gretchin or squig based on pre-existing population densities of the three phenotypes.

 Deunstephe wrote:

I can see how you could say that Orks sexually reproduce if you used the Bad Moon clan as an example, as they all have faster-growing teef, but the Bad Moon clan is made up of pirates, vagabonds, and outcasts from the other clans, and some native ones. This means that faster-growing-teef gene is a MUTATION that has only been sustained via ASEXUAL reproduction, since it would've either spread through ALL Orks if they actually sexually reproduced, or died out because regular Orks wouldn't take that as fair.

Here you are conflating asexual reproduction with inbreeding. Asexual reproduction just means meiosis is not involved. You can have sexual reproduction by parthenogenesis or even in species with two sexes but have such a high rate of inbreeding or low rate of outbreeding that from a population perspective the species is essentially behaving as a clonal system. This is well known in plants and animals.

Also, I thought it was the Freebooters, not Bad Moons that were a mixture of outcasts and pirates?

I think you're looking too deep into this. Orks are masculine by human standards but do not have a gender. They don't reproduce in any way that we can scientifically comprehend as I don't know of any creature that can spawn fully formed beings from spores.

Basically, Orks are genderless, masculine warriors that don't give a flying feth about reproductive methods.

Edit: If there is anything on Earth that reproduces the same I will gladly concede the point.

JWhex wrote:

 Deunstephe wrote:

This does NOT, however, mean that the Ork race reproduces parthenogenetically, as that is, currently, restricted to life-forms that EVOLVED on earth. Gretchin and Squigs are both still Orkoids, and may be spawned from these spores as well, which means that if Orks reproduced via parthenogenesis both subspecies would not exist (even though Squigs were a result of Tyranid experimentation on Ork DNA).

Well there are lots of ways that an Ork could be the result of parthenogenesis and squigs and gretchin also originate from an Ork. One way would be ecophenotypic variation due to different genes being expressed that in turn result in the Ork, Gretchin, or squig phenotype. Or, Orks could be derived by parthenogenesis and squigs and gretchin spores derived from vegetative asexual reproduction from different Ork specialized tissues like freshwater Hydras and other invertebrates. There could even be a feedback system of gene expression that regulates whether a spore born of parthenogenesis becomes an Ork, Gretchin or squig based on pre-existing population densities of the three phenotypes.

It's actually specifically stated in the current Ork 'dex that Gretchin and Snots come into existence depending on environmental conditions. Squigs have basically been retconned, but wikis still say that they have only spread across Ork space after they were discovered on a Tyranid ship, meaning they produce their OWN spores that will probably turn into more squigs, or Gretchin, or Orks. The consumption of squigs has probably allowed Ork spores to produce squigs, which leads to another thought I've put below.

JWhex wrote:

 Deunstephe wrote:

I can see how you could say that Orks sexually reproduce if you used the Bad Moon clan as an example, as they all have faster-growing teef, but the Bad Moon clan is made up of pirates, vagabonds, and outcasts from the other clans, and some native ones. This means that faster-growing-teef gene is a MUTATION that has only been sustained via ASEXUAL reproduction, since it would've either spread through ALL Orks if they actually sexually reproduced, or died out because regular Orks wouldn't take that as fair.

Here you are conflating asexual reproduction with inbreeding. Asexual reproduction just means meiosis is not involved. You can have sexual reproduction by parthenogenesis or even in species with two sexes but have such a high rate of inbreeding or low rate of outbreeding that from a population perspective the species is essentially behaving as a clonal system. This is well known in plants and animals.

Also, I thought it was the Freebooters, not Bad Moons that were a mixture of outcasts and pirates?

Most Ork pirates and outcasts are Bad Moons, so it goes either way really. Badrukk is a Bad Moon, and most Flash Gitz are outcasts who become Bad Moons.

Asexual reproduction means that the entire gene code of the organism has been duplicated to produce another organism. Meiosis can be involved, but not always. If I was truly conflating asexual reproduction with inbreeding, then technically all Orks would be inbred since they are all of the same family.

HOWEVER, since Orks CONSTANTLY release spores and death triggers a massive release of these spores, a form of sexual reproduction occurs when Orks inhale the spores of their fellows? Their respiratory system is not human, and may be connected to the spore-releasing cells, allowing the spores to combine and randomize genes in a form of meiosis, and then replicate mitotically? This would ensure that Ork genes are mixed with ALL of the Orks in a tribe/warband, and a more diverse being would be produced? Since Gretchin and Squigs are orkoids, they must also produce these spores, ensuring that the entire Ork ecosystem is constantly changing, and at the same time, not! They don't have gametes, so there is no fertilization process, but they DO have a form of crossing-over, possibly created by the Brain Boyz (or Old Ones, or Krork. Whichever you prefer) to make sure that the Ork race is always strong, self-sustainable, and adaptable enough MENTALLY that they can pretty much over come any obstacle they encounter! We all know some Warbosses can be dumber than doornails, but the recessive traits of a mek's intellect or a kommando's kunnin' are still there, hidden away.

 Deunstephe wrote:

Asexual reproduction means that the entire gene code of the organism has been duplicated to produce another organism. Meiosis can be involved, but not always. If I was truly conflating asexual reproduction with inbreeding, then technically all Orks would be inbred since they are all of the same family.

No, meiosis is NEVER involved in asexual reproduction.

So if a cell splits its a female? All cells are female? All living things are female?

Aren't all mammals female at one point? Aren't Humans both pigs and whales at certain stages in the womb?

Aren't all these things called female because of the origins of the romantic languages? Making any group female until a male is involved?

What does real world science have to do with Ork in 40k? I think I hear someone trying to use logic! HERESY!!!!

Ork population map:

Corporal_Reznov wrote:
Ork population map:

"..And over on the eastern front, this cluster of worlds shall be seeing a light shower of greenskins for a few days, shortly followed by the "Amazon Rainstorm" of a Waaagh! that is driving them.
Coming from the north is a tidal wave of Chaos, residents are advised to commit suicide to pre-empt their impending doom..."

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Well, I suppose with Imperial guard the key word is "Military Organization". Orks are better described as bands of raiders rather than a proper military.

This.

JWhex wrote:

 Deunstephe wrote:

Asexual reproduction means that the entire gene code of the organism has been duplicated to produce another organism. Meiosis can be involved, but not always. If I was truly conflating asexual reproduction with inbreeding, then technically all Orks would be inbred since they are all of the same family.

No, meiosis is NEVER involved in asexual reproduction.

I think the big deal is that we haven't discussed what a spore really is, and how it's produced. Spores are indeed involved in asexual reproduction, but are created through meiosis.

From Wikipedia (because it's the easiest paragraph to understand I could find)

Spores are usually haploid and unicellular and are produced by meiosis in the sporangium of a diploid sporophyte. Under favourable conditions the spore can develop into a new organism using mitotic division, producing a multicellular gametophyte, which eventually goes on to produce gametes. Two gametes fuse to form a zygote which develops into a new sporophyte. This cycle is known as alternation of generations.

There are indeed spores produced through sexual reproduction as well, but I won't go into that.

 DeffDred wrote:
So if a cell splits its a female? All cells are female? All living things are female?

No, females produce eggs and males produce sperm. The thing is some species that once were comprised of males and females are now only comprised of females. The eggs are activated and develop without being fertilized. Interestingly there are fish female species that mate with other species and use the sperm to activate the egg but dont use any of the DNA. This is one reason that a species with only one sex can be classified as having sexual reproduction. Sexual reproduction is defined by the occurence of meiosis.

There are also fish that change as adults from female to male (certain members of family Labridae).

 DeffDred wrote:

Aren't all mammals female at one point?

No

 DeffDred wrote:

Aren't Humans both pigs and whales at certain stages in the womb?

Absolutely not, this is a common error but was shown not to be true over 100 years ago. At a certain stage a human embryo looks similar to a pig embryo at an early stage.

 DeffDred wrote:

Aren't all these things called female because of the origins of the romantic languages? Making any group female until a male is involved?

No

 DeffDred wrote:

What does real world science have to do with Ork in 40k? I think I hear someone trying to use logic! HERESY!!!!

It has nothing to do with 40K I am just poking fun at really poor science fiction and having a laugh at Ork players by arguing their lads are really lasses.

JWhex seems incapable of understanding xeno biology does not need to match earth based biological classifications.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
JWhex seems incapable of understanding xeno biology does not need to match earth based biological classifications.

You seem incapable of understanding it is a pretend game in a pretend universe and that someone is just pulling your chain. Anyway, you are being a huge hypocrite because formerly you were making counter arguments based on your gross misunderstanding of earth based biology.

There is no canon in 40k the background is changed whenever the feth GW feels like it. There is no consistency between the codexes or the black library books. GW cant even keep major plot lines in correct chronological order. See the Outcast Dead book. The old fluff is as valid as the new fluff, so just rejecting the whole spore thing out of hand is as valid as adopting it.

It seems the troll does not like being poked eh?Funny how that is always the case.

You need to go back and reread what I said,you seem to be confused. Hard to keep all the troling stright I guess.

Having a little fun arguing that the big rough and tough Orks are really comprised of the fairer sex in game with a huge following of pre-adolescent boys is hardly trolling.

No that pretty much is trolling, you are arguing just to get someone to argue with you. Kinda text book trolling.

There are as many orks as there need to be for the waaagh

 Arcsquad12 wrote:
The official description of the Orks marks them as the most numerous group in the galaxy. However, the Imperial Guard description marks the IG as the largest military organization ever created. So I wanted some clarification: When talking about the Orks, are they referring to the entire Ork ecosystem, or just to Boyz and Grotz? If it is the all encompassing Orkosystem, that would make more sense right?

Obvious answer: The Orks aren't gathered into a single unified military.