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No one is levitating to get up there. Has no one ever seen soldiers scale walls before?

@115 you'll see how today's soldiers can get up a wall twice their size. This is what the difficult terrain test represents because it's cinematic and forges a narrative.

I'm backtracking a bit, but that's because I went to bed last night

 insaniak wrote:
Coherency is measured from base to base, except in Ruins.

So this quote looks right, seeing the "Measuring" on p4, along with the Coherency p3&11, and Ruins p98.
However, this would seem to result in potential problems with terrain that isn't Ruins. A rock that is 2.7" higher than all surrounding ground, for example, would prevent any model from standing on it, since the measure from base to base would be 2.7" (minus the small height of the base itself).

Thoughts? This seems to make a number of pieces of otherwise playable terrain unplayable, at least the stuff my FLGS has, and some of the pieces I've made.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
I'm backtracking a bit, but that's because I went to bed last night

 insaniak wrote:
Coherency is measured from base to base, except in Ruins.

So this quote looks right, seeing the "Measuring" on p4, along with the Coherency p3&11, and Ruins p98.
However, this would seem to result in potential problems with terrain that isn't Ruins. A rock that is 2.7" higher than all surrounding ground, for example, would prevent any model from standing on it, since the measure from base to base would be 2.7" (minus the small height of the base itself).

Thoughts? This seems to make a number of pieces of otherwise playable terrain unplayable, at least the stuff my FLGS has, and some of the pieces I've made.

Ruins: pg 98 picture. You get 6" b2b for models on different levels to maintain coherency.

pg 91, area terrain, 2nd paragraph, remove the rock in question. or since you can remove the rock, say you did and don't worry about the .7"

Skyshields are not ruins. Therefore they do not have levels because there are no rules that say they do. The top and bottom of a skyshield are considered to co-exist on one level, the ground, for all game purposes (including shooting). Only restriction would be being unable to see something that is under it due to LOS and such.

WMS will then come into play as you could place the model on the same level as the unit you are charging, but physical restrictions (in this case the 2nd 'floor' of the skyshield) is preventing you from doing so.

Thats the only way to play it if you insist on throwing out the Ruin rules that allow for multiple levels. 95% of players will just use ruin rules for simplicity.

 Peregrine wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Actually, that is what WMS is for...

No it isn't. Read the WMS rule again, it only allows you to move a model and count it as being somewhere else once you have placed it there successfully. It doesn't give you permission to just declare that a model is going to count as being somewhere regardless of whether or not you can put it there. It's a rule for keeping delicate models out of dangerous situations (for example, perched on the top of a tall ruin where one bump of the table will send it to certain destruction), not a rule for giving you access to locations you couldn't otherwise get to.

Ok, that is what the difficult terrain rules are for.

FIXED:

BRB FAQ states:


Page 115 – Fortifications, Skyshield Landing Pad.
Ignore the reference to Access Points & Fire Points

BRB p 92 Building versus Ruin (if your are not enclose (so acces point) you are ruin). So SKYRAY use ruin rules.


There are no access points. It is just difficult terrain to move up or down so a single model can still trigger the effect being as one model still means the unit is on top. nothing states in the rules they must be entirely.

so yes soldier can climb everywhere, is nice ans So fluffy !!! destroy roof with grenade and jump climb in team ;p

P.S
personal point of view platform tactics is gay
35x cultiste MoT = 3+inv with termi lord of tzeencth 2+/2+ ?? WTF, but only for shooting GW shoul FAQ it was like aegis when is close (barricade)

Turc396 wrote:
There are no access points. It is just difficult terrain to move up or down so a single model can still trigger the effect being as one model still means the unit is on top. nothing states in the rules they must be entirely.

Where do you place your models if they don't make it up the sky shield? Do they hang in mid-air? And would any of my units therefore be allowed to climb into the air to get better LOS on units? I'm sorry, but I'd have to agree with Peregrine on this one. Sky shields are broken as all hell.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
Sky shields are broken as all hell.

Yes the Skyshield rules need fixing.

Where do you place your models if they don't make it up the sky shield?

as close as possible to their correct position, noting the WMS rules.

Do they hang in mid-air?

Physically impossible, unless your models can fly or hover without help. If they can how expensive were they?

And would any of my units therefore be allowed to climb into the air to get better LOS on units?

If you are under skyshield, yes as the skyshield has rules that allow you to climb up on a Difficult terrain test.

No other terrain lets you do that, except ruins, though ruins specifically disallows models that can not get to the next level from advancing to the next level of the ruin.

sirlynchmob wrote:
No one is levitating to get up there. Has no one ever seen soldiers scale walls before?

Not only have I seen it, I've done it.

It's easier when there's an actual, you know, wall. Scaling 18 feet of empty air is a tad more difficult.

 zephoid wrote:
WMS will then come into play as you could place the model on the same level as the unit you are charging, but physical restrictions (in this case the 2nd 'floor' of the skyshield) is preventing you from doing so.

And, again, that is NOT what WMS allows you to do. WMS allows you to move a model and count it as being somewhere once you have successfully placed it there. The ONLY thing it allows you to do is to say "look, I have legally moved there, now I'm going to put the model somewhere safer so it doesn't fall and break if we bump the table". It does NOT allow you to just declare that a model is going to be at some arbitrary spot and ignore the fact that you can't place the model there at all.

Thats the only way to play it if you insist on throwing out the Ruin rules that allow for multiple levels. 95% of players will just use ruin rules for simplicity.

Then 95% of players are wrong. The Skyshield is not a ruin, just like a hill is not a ruin.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

sirlynchmob wrote:
Ruins: pg 98 picture. You get 6" b2b for models on different levels to maintain coherency.

Only within ruins. In all other terrain types (the Skyshield, for example) you use standard 2" coherency measured from base to base. Yes, this means that certain terrain pieces are too tall for a unit to be split between the top and bottom without being out of coherency.

pg 91, area terrain, 2nd paragraph, remove the rock in question. or since you can remove the rock, say you did and don't worry about the .7"

That is not allowed. The rule on page 91 allows you to temporarily move a piece of the terrain while moving models in it. So, for example, if you have a forest with lots of leaves at the top you can take the tops off the trees temporarily so you can reach into the terrain and place the models, but then once you have put the models into their final position you must place the removed pieces back where they were. You do NOT get permission to move something out of the way to make room for a model, and you certainly don't get permission to just declare that the rock doesn't exist and ignore the fact that your models are out of coherency.

 Peregrine wrote:
The ONLY thing it allows you to do is to say "look, I have legally moved there, now I'm going to put the model somewhere safer so it doesn't fall and break if we bump the table".

Right. So you roll your difficult terrain, determine that the charging model has sufficient movement to make it into base contact, and then put it somewhere else as per WMS. The model was legally allowed to move up to the edge of the skyshield... it just can't physically stand there... which is exactly the sort of situation WMS is intended to cover.

 insaniak wrote:
determine that the charging model has sufficient movement to make it into base contact

But you don't have sufficient movement. Since you can't be suspended in midair you have to move around to the back of the platform, and you probably don't have enough movement for that. Remember, the rule is shortest path to get into base contact, not a direct base to base line ignoring all intervening terrain/other models/etc.

The model was legally allowed to move up to the edge of the skyshield... it just can't physically stand there... which is exactly the sort of situation WMS is intended to cover.

No it isn't. WMS requires that you be able to place the model in a given spot before moving it. If you can't successfully place it at all then WMS doesn't apply.

 Peregrine wrote:
no it isn't. WMS requires that you be able to place the model in a given spot before moving it.

Note that this actually makes WMS next to useless...

The whole point of WMS is that the model can't stand where it needs to go. So when you're, say, trying to assault over a low wall, your interpretation here means that you would have to physically balance the model up there first before being allowed to use WMS to place it elsewhere.


I'm also a little curious where you are getting the rule that forbids you from being suspended in mid air... Normally, it's simply not an option, we assume that models need to move along an actual surface, and finish their movement somewhere they can actually stand. But the Skyshield throws that out the window by allowing models to levitate up to the platform. So we have a rule that allows models to move through empty space as if it is difficult terrain. Where is this rule that prevents them from finishing their movement in that space as if it were any other piece of difficult terrain?

 insaniak wrote:
Note that this actually makes WMS next to useless...

No it doesn't. I've used it many times when I've had a delicate model balanced in a dangerous situation (often with heavy resin flyers on tall bases). In all of those cases I've been able to place the model in the location at least briefly to establish that the model is legally allowed to move to that spot.

The whole point of WMS is that the model can't stand where it needs to go. So when you're, say, trying to assault over a low wall, your interpretation here means that you would have to physically balance the model up there first before being allowed to use WMS to place it elsewhere.

No, in that case you would use the standard rule that you count as being in base contact if two opposing models are on opposite sides of a wall and in contact with it. But the Skyshield is not a wall.

I'm also a little curious where you are getting the rule that forbids you from being suspended in mid air...

The appropriate question is where are you getting the rule that permits you to be suspended in mid air? Until you can find that rule you have to play by the standard rule that a model is counted as being where the model is currently located (with the one exception of WMS, which does not apply here).

But the Skyshield throws that out the window by allowing models to levitate up to the platform.

No it doesn't, because the difficult terrain rules explicitly state that you may ignore "impossible" barriers (solid walls, locked doors, etc) when moving through them because you assume that your troops can always find a way somehow. Going from the ground to the upper level is just a generic difficult terrain move, as long as both the starting and ending points of the move are legal spots for the model to be.

Where is this rule that prevents them from finishing their movement in that space as if it were any other piece of difficult terrain?

Where is the rule that permits you to pretend that a model is in a spot that it doesn't currently occupy? The only rule that allows you to count a model's location as being somewhere other than its actual location is WMS, and WMS requires that you successfully place the model before moving it away.

the only way to charge units on skyray is by mtc anywhere under the platform to the top and then charge when you have los.After is not a big deal because with pile in move the ennemy will be force to jump down the platform

How I got to where I am on this: So Wobbly Model Syndrome (pg.11) , can it apply? Unfurled, you could place models on the extreme edges and prevent the enemy from being placed on top. You would be unable to be charged then. You miss out on the 4+ Invulnerable save provided by Shielded though. Speaking of Shielded, you could try to place your charging model "on top of the wall" the enemy model is behind. WMS then kicks in, and you just leave the models on the ground.

In my mind, that's the only way it works from a RAW perspective.

 Peregrine wrote:
No it doesn't. I've used it many times when I've had a delicate model balanced in a dangerous situation (often with heavy resin flyers on tall bases). In all of those cases I've been able to place the model in the location at least briefly to establish that the model is legally allowed to move to that spot.

Good for you. However, there is no actual requirement in the WMS rule for the player to physically place the model in the precarious location. It just says that you can place the model somewhere else and count it as being where it should be.

No, in that case you would use the standard rule that you count as being in base contact if two opposing models are on opposite sides of a wall and in contact with it.

I wasn't talking about models in contact with the wall. I was talking about charging a unit behind one, where to get in base contact your model has to be standing on the wall.

The appropriate question is where are you getting the rule that permits you to be suspended in mid air?

I already told you: The rule that allows you to move through that empty air as if it were difficult terrain. This is unique to the skyshield and Ruins. In the case of Ruins, they forbid you from stopping midway, but get around that with specific rules that allow you to assault models on different levels. The skyshield has no such restriction.

No it doesn't, because the difficult terrain rules explicitly state that you may ignore "impossible" barriers (solid walls, locked doors, etc) when moving through them because you assume that your troops can always find a way somehow.

Right. What the difficult terrain rules don't mention is an ability to levitate through empty air. Again, this is unique to the skyshield and Ruins.

Where is the rule that permits you to pretend that a model is in a spot that it doesn't currently occupy? The only rule that allows you to count a model's location as being somewhere other than its actual location is WMS, and WMS requires that you successfully place the model before moving it away.

And again, WMS requires no such thing.

 insaniak wrote:
Good for you. However, there is no actual requirement in the WMS rule for the player to physically place the model in the precarious location. It just says that you can place the model somewhere else and count it as being where it should be.

Not true. The WMS rule makes it very clear that it's talking about a situation where a model is "delicately balanced" and you move it to a safer place, and says nothing about allowing you to count a model as being somewhere that you can't place it at all.

I wasn't talking about models in contact with the wall. I was talking about charging a unit behind one, where to get in base contact your model has to be standing on the wall.

I guess you won't be able to get into base contact then, and your assault will fail.

(Unless of course you remember that you have a shooting phase, kill one model in the enemy unit, and move an assaulting model into the space that the defending model used to occupy.)

I already told you: The rule that allows you to move through that empty air as if it were difficult terrain. This is unique to the skyshield and Ruins. In the case of Ruins, they forbid you from stopping midway, but get around that with specific rules that allow you to assault models on different levels. The skyshield has no such restriction.

But that doesn't allow you to REMAIN suspended in midair, it allows you to move through the empty space. These are two very different things. The normal rules for difficult terrain make it perfectly clear that you can move through places that a model can't go (for example, a solid wall), but they do not allow you to END your move in those places.

Right. What the difficult terrain rules don't mention is an ability to levitate through empty air. Again, this is unique to the skyshield and Ruins.

Because they don't need to mention it specifically. The normal rules for moving through difficult terrain already cover "impossible" barriers. You are the only one making the assumption that because the empty space is not mentioned it must be magic empty space that you can pretend models are hovering in rather than just another barrier in difficult terrain.

 Peregrine wrote:

I guess you won't be able to get into base contact then, and your assault will fail.

(Unless of course you remember that you have a shooting phase, kill one model in the enemy unit, and move an assaulting model into the space that the defending model used to occupy.)

That assault will fail as well as you can't maintain coherency from the top of the skyshield to models on the ground. So shoot enough room for the unit.

 Peregrine wrote:
The normal rules for difficult terrain make it perfectly clear that you can move through places that a model can't go (for example, a solid wall), but they do not allow you to END your move in those places.

What exactly is preventing a model from ending its movement, say, halfway through a wall?

Nothing if you are willing to cut the model in half to hold it in place so I can take my shots at it per the WMS rules.

Edit: There is a part to the WMS rule anyone claiming that a model can use to stop halfway up a ladder/air are ignoring and that is that putting the model where you want it is hard, not that putting the model there is impossible. Hard is balanced on an uneven surface or a narrow ledge, impossible is floating in midair or attached to a ladder which the base does not even fit onto.

There is a second part of the rule which will cause some friction is the agreement of your opponent that it is a legal placement. I certainly would not agree that your model can suspend in midair.

"Sometimes you may find that a particular piece of terrain makes it hard to put a model exactly where you want. If you delicately balance it in place, it is very likely to fall I as soon as somebody nudges the table, leaving your beautifully painted miniature damaged or even broken. In cases like this, we find it is perfectly acceptable to leave the model in a safer position, as long as both players have agreed and know its 'actual' location" P. 11

This rule says that if "a particular piece of terrain makes it hard to put a model exactly where you want" then "it is perfectly acceptable to leave the model in a safer position, as long as both players have agreed and know its 'actual' location"

The model happens to end up in the wall, then that is where the model is since you can not put that "model exactly where you want" then ""it is perfectly acceptable to leave the model in a safer position" but both parties involved play it as it were in the agreed upon location.

As you so kindly posted, it doesn't say if you can't put it where you want it says if it is hard to put the model where you want it. You can only get to the interpretation of floating models or models in the wall if you ignore that part of the rule.

Gravmyr wrote:
As you so kindly posted, it doesn't say if you can't put it where you want it says if it is hard to put the model where you want it. .

I can put the model halfway through the wall, but the tournament organiser might take a dim view of me cutting holes in his terrain...

 insaniak wrote:

Gravmyr wrote:
As you so kindly posted, it doesn't say if you can't put it where you want it says if it is hard to put the model where you want it. .

I can put the model halfway through the wall, but the tournament organiser might take a dim view of me cutting holes in his terrain...

Unless this was a joke that would also be illegal since you cannot alter the terrain in game

Yes, it was a joke.

However, I feel people are trying to take the precise wording of WMS a lot more strictly here than it was ever intended to be. And ultimately, it won't matter if GW ever get around to FAQing the situation at hand... I would very, very much doubt that they would go with any other interpretation than to treat assaults on the skyshield exactly the same as you would with a ruin.

Understandable, yes with the Skyshield it makes life difficult for charging units.

Take the same reading another direction. If a unit is charging a skimmer on impassable terrain then WMS would then allow you to place the chargers in the impassable terrain. If you want to house rule the Skyshield it's all good but trying to claim that WMS allows you to hover or clamp to a ladder it is simple to stretch it to do the same to allow charges of skimmers in impassable terrain.

Gravmyr wrote:
... then WMS would then allow you to place the chargers in the impassable terrain.

How?

DeathReaper wrote:
The model happens to end up in the wall, then that is where the model is since you can not put that "model exactly where you want" then ""it is perfectly acceptable to leave the model in a safer position" but both parties involved play it as it were in the agreed upon location.

By the rules I cannot place the model in impassable terrain but that would mean I cannot put the model exactly where I want it. Therefor WMS would kick in and I place the model aside but it is considered to be in base contact with the skimmer.

Gravmyr wrote:
By the rules I cannot place the model in impassable terrain but that would mean I cannot put the model exactly where I want it. Therefor WMS would kick in and I place the model aside but it is considered to be in base contact with the skimmer.

That's not the same thing at all.

The model has permission to move through the wall. It has no such permission to move through impassable terrain.