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 Howard A Treesong wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:

Sadly, a lot of this is true.

Out of curiosity, how does everyone feel about recasts of long OOP models? Just as morally unsound, or more of a grey area?

It doesn't bother me that much. Yes I know it's still not legal, but GW have ceased production and destroyed the moulds for many older figures. Some figures were only available for ludicrously short periods of time before being discontinued. Some of the things in the Specialist Games range were so poorly documented, such as only being officially being made available in tiny leaflets and catalogues for a matter of months, that there's debate as to what was actually released in some cases. The Inquisitor Genestealer was only available for 3 months, the Imperial Civilians or Crimelord are almost unheard of. Now in my mind, GW sold people a game and failed to offer much of a product line to go with it, they could have, but for whatever reason just let it die and didn't even try to make anything of what was released. These go for very high amounts on eBay.

I don't mind these being recast myself. I think it's wrong to recast and pass them off as the real thing to trick people into paying top collector's prices, but I think that it's the only way many of us will even be able to get them as they so rarely appear for sale and are unobtainable, entirely due to the way GW handled the range.

Something to note is that in some cases (such as the Inquisitor Vindicare Assassin), it was not a case of "GW destroying the moulds" but rather "The moulds destroyed themselves".
The Vindicare Assassin, for those who are unaware, was a really nice model with lots of detail.
The problems arose from its cloak, which was taking huge chunks of the mould with it on each pull.

 cincydooley wrote:


Sadly, a lot of this is true.

Out of curiosity, how does everyone feel about recasts of long OOP models? Just as morally unsound, or more of a grey area?

If you're not trying to charge full price, have at it. Being upfront saying it's a recast and you're not trying to hide it/overcharge for it, it's fine.

I never understood where the "check the slotta tab" chestnut came from. I've removed plenty of models with malformed/incomplete tabs from sealed blisters.

 eohall wrote:
I never understood where the "check the slotta tab" chestnut came from. I've removed plenty of models with malformed/incomplete tabs from sealed blisters.

A tab that looks legit is just one point in an overall inspection of the model. The absence of a tab does not mean it is a fake, lots of people cut off the tabs and pin models to the base.

I've a question, in the past I've read that it's possible to do metal re-casts. Is that something that actually happens, and wouldn't it make it harder to tell if an all-metal release is genuine or not?

 Enigwolf wrote:
I've a question, in the past I've read that it's possible to do metal re-casts. Is that something that actually happens, and wouldn't it make it harder to tell if an all-metal release is genuine or not?

Well i know that metal recasts are definetly possible (i used to recast airfix napoleonics) and I would say that it does make it seem more legit, a metal model recast in metal is more legit than a metal model recast in resin

 Enigwolf wrote:
I've a question, in the past I've read that it's possible to do metal re-casts. Is that something that actually happens, and wouldn't it make it harder to tell if an all-metal release is genuine or not?

Of course it's possible. If you can cast the original you can recast it using the same methods, the only question is whether or not it's worth the effort of doing it in metal instead of resin. And of course a recast metal model would be identical (other than the usual possible flaws from low-quality molds or poor casting work) to the original metal model. So if you're worried about getting genuine metal models you need to check for all the usual signs of a recaster.

Now whether you care about this is up to you. For example, if you're offered a choice between a genuine finecast model and a recast metal version of the same model you'll have to decide whether it's worth the ethical problems to get the superior product.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:
I've a question, in the past I've read that it's possible to do metal re-casts. Is that something that actually happens, and wouldn't it make it harder to tell if an all-metal release is genuine or not?

Of course it's possible. If you can cast the original you can recast it using the same methods, the only question is whether or not it's worth the effort of doing it in metal instead of resin. And of course a recast metal model would be identical (other than the usual possible flaws from low-quality molds or poor casting work) to the original metal model. So if you're worried about getting genuine metal models you need to check for all the usual signs of a recaster.

Interesting. I'm only asking this because I recently bought a few of the old metal GK models off of ebay, but the guy had a large collection of them, some primed and some not, but all were metal and something about their casting quality didn't make me feel comfortable. Of course, at the time I completely forgot that you can recast in metal... So now I'm just thinking whether I was duped or not...

GW has had a proven history of selling bad casts in metal as well as duff sprues from its plastic kits - long before the finecast issues.

They weren't in the majority, but they did happen. They weren't the perfection in casting that some would like to believe.

Very true, and it still goes on. I got a miscast cultist from Dark Vengeance.

I've bought off Ebay a bunch of times and have never had any issues. You need to pay attention to what is in the picture. If the prices makes it seem too good to be true, then it probably is.

Prices were pretty much what I expected for OOP metal models that aren't completely rare, but chromedog does have a good point with regards to the GW poor metal casts.

This might sound entirely silly, but watch out for minis that are better than GW/FW as well. (I know it sounds totally absurd, but I got a 'recast' chimera autocannon turret on ebay that was much superior [in detail and being free of bubbles] to the same mini I got directly from FW.)

How do I know it was a recast? I removed some of the 'basecoat'. The resin was teal instead of the greyish FW or the cream Armorcast.

 BaronIveagh wrote:
This might sound entirely silly, but watch out for minis that are better than GW/FW as well. (I know it sounds totally absurd, but I got a 'recast' chimera autocannon turret on ebay that was much superior [in detail and being free of bubbles] to the same mini I got directly from FW.)

How do I know it was a recast? I removed some of the 'basecoat'. The resin was teal instead of the greyish FW or the cream Armorcast.

I'm generally not too worried about them being better quality, to be honest. Although part of me cries at my money not ACTUALLY supporting GW/FW.

Recasters who recast GW metal models tend to be of higher quality than the finecast counterparts :p food for thought..

I do not think that the colour alone, is a good indicator of a recast or not.
Even more so if you are checking the colour after stripping, I have stripped stuff I have bought from WW and afterwards it has appeared to have a green or blue tint to the resin, which was not there prior to the black undercoat.
Some of the stuff I bought from FW five or so years ago is not the same colour as some of the stuff I have bought recently, even though it is the same kits.
I have asked them in the past and have been told that they will change the resin slightly for newer batches if there has been problems with the old casts.
I find the only real way to tell is if the seller is listing a large amount of FW Items at below FW prices, as there is no way to get them any cheaper, even if a member of your family works in the factory !

The first things I had from Forgeworld where cream coloured and quite poorly cast, but they were ordered direct. I first had the Sentinel Power Loader which is in my gallery.

There are few solid rules to spotting a recast. The best indicator will be a mini being cast in a material it was never done in. For example, no model released after 1994 or whenever they stopped using lead in their miniatures will contain lead. Lead models are softer and you can draw a line like a pencil with them, you can't do this with white metal. But many figures currently in the GW catalogue were pre lead days, Abaddon the Despoiler for example.

Recasts sometimes have a double mould line, but a decent recaster will remove the original line, and there are genuine GW figures released that have double lines. So while an indicator, it's not perfect. Sometimes recasts have a different quality to them, they are a little lumpy or lacking in detail, sometimes they seem to have a different surface finish that doesnt seem like most GW figures, but again metal quality and casting can vary with the genuine article. I've found that recasts often have poor quality slotta tabs, malformed or without and text, but this also occurs on the real thing especially older miniatures. Othe signs of recasting are people selling multiples of the same figure, being based on China or Russia, or selling many of the same rare miniature.

No one thing will confirm a recast, but if it's cheap from China, it's got poor detailing and a double mould line, then be aware of what you are getting.

Know your stuff, is my advice. Especially what was originally cast and when with older collectible miniatures. Know what was cast with which materials, the first plastic marines were cast in colours such as cream and green, these are unexpected but genuine. Know what markings to expect on their slottas and under bases, how they vary between regions. For some older figures this isn't well documented, the citadel collectors wiki is one good guide.

My feelings are ambivalent on recasting OOP stuff, but I detest people who recast rare figures and pass them off as the genuine thing attempting to con people. Many older figures are worth a lot of money so you have to be clued up to know what you're getting when making a purchase and being satisfied with it. I'm not against buying a recast Inquisitor Vindicare as Kan described above, but I'm not paying £50+ for a recast.

 Rayvon wrote:
I do not think that the colour alone, is a good indicator of a recast or not.
Even more so if you are checking the colour after stripping, I have stripped stuff I have bought from WW and afterwards it has appeared to have a green or blue tint to the resin, which was not there prior to the black undercoat.
Some of the stuff I bought from FW five or so years ago is not the same colour as some of the stuff I have bought recently, even though it is the same kits.
I have asked them in the past and have been told that they will change the resin slightly for newer batches if there has been problems with the old casts.

This was far more than a tint, it was literally this color. and not just on the surface.

Bottom line, if it seems too good to be true, it probably is. If you don't care who makes your models, then who am I to judge?

Your best tools for detecting a forged model, upon inspecting it, are the materials used, overall quality, and mold lines.

For metal models it's weight. Lead is cheaper and easier to cast with than tin. It's also a duller color, but that's harder to go by.

Resin, can be tinted rather inexpensively. Base coating it black is amatuer hour. All my forgeworld models are gray, but the shade of gray varies.

Mold lines. Recast molds should be made along the same lines as the original, but again amatuers don't always really know what they are doing and modl lines that aren't there on an original model can be a give away.

---------------

I once bought a lot of OOP Star Wars miniatures and about some of the models were blatant recasts. Poor quality, extra mold lines, heavier, darker metal.

I've also seen Chinese recasts of 40K plastic models in tan resin. The casting was top nocth, but the materials choice was a dead give away.

Ok this is a serious question for all the people saying "usually the recast is better than the regular model".

How exactly can you make a superior version of a flawed product? If their master copy has bubbles and other minor imperfections, every copy would have this as well.

Unless the recaster just orders like 50 copies of each model in the attempt to get one good master copy, their copies could, at best, be equal to the model they were cast from.

From what I understand some recasters will take the time to clean the model of mould lines and flash, putty in air bubbles and get the master as high quality as possible before making their moulds. People have bought stuff in metal that GW only ever released in finecast and they were totally flawless-- no liquid green stuff required.

It sucks that legit products can be worse than recasters. :(

 frozenwastes wrote:
From what I understand some recasters will take the time to clean the model of mould lines and flash, putty in air bubbles and get the master as high quality as possible before making their moulds. People have bought stuff in metal that GW only ever released in finecast and they were totally flawless-- no liquid green stuff required.

It sucks that legit products can be worse than recasters. :(

That would be because, for as many people order from even popular recasters, they don't do nearly the volume GW itself does. Not even close at all. That recaster has the convenience of being able to check each and every one by eye - and I guarantee there's some that get thrown, for as much as their activity is illegal, they do want repeat customers. And as much as people love their rose tinted glasses, metal is included, though significantly lower in miscast rate.

GW wouldn't even have the the space in their warehouse to hire enough people to properly check by eye every single product that goes out to the scrutiny armchair CEOs want them to.

I've got some (old, admittedly) Forge world armoured stuff that was yellowish resin and came inside unlabelled zip-lock bags. The bags may have also come inside small card boxes, but I can't actually remember. I do remember they came from Forge World direct, though.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Ok this is a serious question for all the people saying "usually the recast is better than the regular model".

How exactly can you make a superior version of a flawed product? If their master copy has bubbles and other minor imperfections, every copy would have this as well.

Unless the recaster just orders like 50 copies of each model in the attempt to get one good master copy, their copies could, at best, be equal to the model they were cast from.

Spoiler:

yes I know most of them are joking

What they said.

Fix the flaws on the original first. THEN make your mould from this (using a vacuum setup to degas the mould). Pressure cast your copies using a good resin (there's a sliding scale of cheap/result) that's cost-effective. Check your recasts. Sell the good ones.
Grind down the crap ones (if you have access to a linisher with extractor - even better). Reuse the dust as filler (extends the amount of resin you have while not changing the casting time overly).

This is how we did it in the prop shop.