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I play warriors of choas, the unit I was talking about was Warriors with halberds, shields and Mark of Tzeentch, 20 models in the unit. They are T4 S5 with 3+AS 4+ parry. PG just don't do that many wounds and most get saved.
I know that warriors are expensive, but they are only core. WL and SM do more wounds even without the rerolls.

Niteware wrote:
I play warriors of choas, the unit I was talking about was Warriors with halberds, shields and Mark of Tzeentch, 20 models in the unit. They are T4 S5 with 3+AS 4+ parry. PG just don't do that many wounds and most get saved.
I know that warriors are expensive, but they are only core. WL and SM do more wounds even without the rerolls.

They are T4 with 4+ armor and 6+ ward. With Halberds, they don't get to use the shield in melee, so no parry.

You'll find a lot of units lose bad when opponent are doing it wrong.

-Matt

Niteware wrote:
I play warriors of choas, the unit I was talking about was Warriors with halberds, shields and Mark of Tzeentch, 20 models in the unit. They are T4 S5 with 3+AS 4+ parry. PG just don't do that many wounds and most get saved.
I know that warriors are expensive, but they are only core. WL and SM do more wounds even without the rerolls.

This is literally 1/3 more expensive than the PG. Which means they would have 26 PG vs. those 20 Warriors and would almost certainly be steadfast for at least a round longer. They are bloodletters with ASF and a 4+ ward instead of 5 and 5+ armor instead of 6 and WAY better LD and can't fight in 3 ranks. They just don't have KB. But they are stupidly good.

My bad, didn't have halberds second time around, was only S4. Was writing that in the middle of writing my list for a game tomorrow. Apologies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Warrior with shield and mark is 17 points. 20 with FC and the banner I took was 395 points.

I believe PG are 14 ppm, but not sure if they get upgrades. They do take up non core points, so I would expect them to do better per point than core.

Specials aren't necessarily better than Core. If you had just 2 armies that crashed into each other and never maneuvered, with no spells, I believe Core beats out just about any specials/rares per cost.

It's just that the game doesn't work like that.

Niteware wrote:
My bad, didn't have halberds second time around, was only S4. Was writing that in the middle of writing my list for a game tomorrow. Apologies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Warrior with shield and mark is 17 points. 20 with FC and the banner I took was 395 points.

I believe PG are 14 ppm, but not sure if they get upgrades. They do take up non core points, so I would expect them to do better per point than core.

PG are 15 ppm , no upgrades available other than command (not that they really need upgrades!). 20 would be 330 points, full command.

-- Haight

Niteware wrote:
I am aware that PG have a 4++, but my exerience is tha I do 7 - 9 wounds and take 1 - 4. PG run away after second round of combat.

Then your opponent should check their dice because Pguard woth razor standard smash through chaos

Maybe his mistake was not having razor then. But I'd still have 5+ 5++, don't see them "smashing through*

Niteware wrote:
Maybe his mistake was not having razor then. But I'd still have 5+ 5++, don't see them "smashing through*

And you'd be hitting with S4 (as you need the shield to get the parry and better armor) so he's saving on 6+ 4++.
Warriors hit on 4's, wound on 3's, and he saves on 6+/4++. Every warrior attack is 0.138 wounds.
PG hit on 4's with re-rolls, wound on 4's, and tzeench sword and board saves on 5+/5++. Every PG attack is 0.166 wounds.
The front rank of warriors get an extra attack, but phoenix guard fight in an extra rank, and ASF.
When you add in the cost of the razor banner, units of ~18 are almost the exact same cost; only PG hit first and kill slightly more.

If those warriors take halberds, their save drops to 4+/6++ in melee, so they'd be 6+/6++ vs PG.
PG killing rate increases to 0.26
Tzeench Warrior killing rate increases to 0.20
Taking halberds bar the use of shields, and start to make the cost of warriors out run the cost of phoenix guard.

The real trouble for warriors is scale. Phoenix guard scale up to large units pretty effectively, where as big warrior units are more and more inefficient. Large PG is more likely to do enough damage on the ASF to take attacks away from the opponent.
Chosen fair better, WS6 means hitting on 3's but you'll need either more chop (attack or strength) or more survival (armor/Toughness) from the pre-game roll to make the chosen really shine.
Units of 18 seem to be the sweet spot. Smaller and you can take too many losses and lose attacks before you swing. Much large and you're a big point sink that gains more time, but not more hittng power. 30+ for horde is stupidly expensive, and underperforms against opponents hordes.




-Matt

Without razor, PG are far less effective. Agreed that they should break even if they have it (fewer attacks but slightly higher wounding), but withiut it they lose. Warriors can lose a few models before losing attacks, PG probably can't.

Also unless you are slaanesh you are taking fear tests every turn you will fail one eventually.

 captain collius wrote:
Also unless you are slaanesh you are taking fear tests every turn you will fail one eventually.

Why does everyone forget about fear tests lol. It seems like half the opponents I play are always surprised when I tell them they need to take fear tests when they charge or get charged by my phoenix guard.

furbyballer wrote:

 captain collius wrote:
Also unless you are slaanesh you are taking fear tests every turn you will fail one eventually.

Why does everyone forget about fear tests lol. It seems like half the opponents I play are always surprised when I tell them they need to take fear tests when they charge or get charged by my phoenix guard.

My whole army causes fear. I'm lucky to see 1 failed test per game.
I think people forget about fear, because it does almost nothing.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:

furbyballer wrote:

 captain collius wrote:
Also unless you are slaanesh you are taking fear tests every turn you will fail one eventually.

Why does everyone forget about fear tests lol. It seems like half the opponents I play are always surprised when I tell them they need to take fear tests when they charge or get charged by my phoenix guard.

My whole army causes fear. I'm lucky to see 1 failed test per game.
I think people forget about fear, because it does almost nothing.

-Matt

Pretty much. In an iteration where most armies run re-rollable LD8 or better results, Fear just isn't going to do anything. And even if it does, it barely does anything at all, at most, it makes you hit on 1 die result worse than normal. Whoop whoop.

Yah, fear just isn't a big deal in the game anymore. Same with terror.

True, it went from ridiculously overpowered to just useless. GW really struggles to find a solid middle ground often, similar to the Marauder issue. Meh.

I dont know, I think in theory I agree with you guys on the over nerfing, but this new HE codex is really a great book. It gives more options and still manages to stay competitive but not dominating. I have been really impressed with both their new books in fantasy and 40k as far as balance goes (except that fething hell drake...)

Dan

I tend to agree. If we leave obvious balance fails out of the equation (Banner of Trolololol), the HE book still isn't terrible. It is, however, the by far weakest book in 8th yet balance-wise.

But alas, Matt Ward.

HawaiiMatt wrote:

furbyballer wrote:

 captain collius wrote:
Also unless you are slaanesh you are taking fear tests every turn you will fail one eventually.

Why does everyone forget about fear tests lol. It seems like half the opponents I play are always surprised when I tell them they need to take fear tests when they charge or get charged by my phoenix guard.

My whole army causes fear. I'm lucky to see 1 failed test per game.
I think people forget about fear, because it does almost nothing.

-Matt

Sad but true fair point. However when it does work it is fantastic.

HawaiiMatt wrote:

furbyballer wrote:

 captain collius wrote:
Also unless you are slaanesh you are taking fear tests every turn you will fail one eventually.

Why does everyone forget about fear tests lol. It seems like half the opponents I play are always surprised when I tell them they need to take fear tests when they charge or get charged by my phoenix guard.

My whole army causes fear. I'm lucky to see 1 failed test per game.
I think people forget about fear, because it does almost nothing.

-Matt

Yeah, agreed. It seems to me that, whenever fear units are involved, myself and my opponent will completely forget about fear until a good while after we should have rolled at which point the controlling player would say "Oh, you needed to take a fear check in that combat back there." At which point the other player will pick up two dice and simply pass their Fear check with a casual "Meh".

 Sigvatr wrote:
It is, however, the by far weakest book in 8th yet balance-wise.

HE are stupendously good. You know 8th includes O&G and TK and DoC, right? You have to be a far better general with those armies than you do with HE to win. I do the standard, "come at me, bro," test. Just buy up core, and specials and some rares and walk into each other. HE will smush those armies. That's not a realistic scenario, but it shows that at the lowest skill level, their troops are simply superior. It's a lot harder to judge higher skill levels because all kinds of wackiness goes on with magic and movement and units helping each other. But HE is certainly not weak in those areas either.

I read it as him meaning that their balance is terrible, not that their army is.

DukeRustfield wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
It is, however, the by far weakest book in 8th yet balance-wise.

HE are stupendously good. You know 8th includes O&G and TK and DoC, right? You have to be a far better general with those armies than you do with HE to win. I do the standard, "come at me, bro," test. Just buy up core, and specials and some rares and walk into each other. HE will smush those armies. That's not a realistic scenario, but it shows that at the lowest skill level, their troops are simply superior. It's a lot harder to judge higher skill levels because all kinds of wackiness goes on with magic and movement and units helping each other. But HE is certainly not weak in those areas either.

Duke, I said "weak" balanec-wise...might be a bit unclear, apologies, but what I meant is that it's the, by a long shot, poorest written book in 8th yet.


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 kirsanth wrote:
I read it as him meaning that their balance is terrible, not that their army is.

Who's a good kitty?

TechMarine1 wrote:
I run empire, so you may be practically immune to magic, but you're not immune to MY massed non magical cannonfire and S4 gunline core

Fixed that for you. Bloody things even hurt chaos warriors well *grumbles like a dwarf going sober*

Overall really like the new HE, enough so that the book was preordered for pickup on day of release and I dug out my HE for it. Only seen some low points games but the loremaster is incredibly powerful in them. Can see that higher games you would need the level 4 though. With what you have run down with the characters it sounds like you see the HE being pretty character heavy now? Was considering archmage/loremaster or archmage/prince with the required BSB and level 2 caster but seemed a huge investment away from the special choices and a bit too similar to how WoC is with their characters costs.

If I remember correctly the wizards tower makes you know all spells from your chosen lore so if you stick a loremaster in one things just get silly.