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 frozenwastes wrote:
It sucks when commercial interests dictate what people can and cannot discuss. As for ads, do people actually see them? I thought all the smart internet users use an adblocking extension on their browser.

I'm sorry for wanting to make a buck and try to be able to afford to eat.

What about scratch-builds? I mean each stompa someone lovingly hand crafts is just as much $$$ out of GW's pocket as a recast or whatever, but I don't see anyone complaining about it.

To be honest, I can understand the no-piracy thing, but the excessive policy of "shut the feth up and buy a rulebook" whenever someone asks a question about the rules isn't productive at all.

It think it's pretty simple. There are places that are designed for discussing piracy. The owners of this site have chosen that this is not one of them. Like it or not, it's their site not ours. We come here for the content they do allow, and go somewhere else for stuff they don't. /end thread

 Cyporiean wrote:

 frozenwastes wrote:
It sucks when commercial interests dictate what people can and cannot discuss. As for ads, do people actually see them? I thought all the smart internet users use an adblocking extension on their browser.

I'm sorry for wanting to make a buck and try to be able to afford to eat.

Do you advertise here? I've never seen your ad (or anyone's as I don't see any ads). Geeky people into miniature gaming often are more tech savvy than your average computer user, so I wonder how many times an ad is actually seen by a real person and not just screened away by adblock. Is advertising money spent on DakkaDakka actually worth the return? I think threads discussing a given game or kickstarter would probably be better, but I don't know. There's probably some means of tracking linking based off ad clicks vs non-ad clicks.

I totally get why not having threads asking for pirate copies of rules might be a good idea, but I don't think a policy demanding everyone refrain from expressing their opinion on a given issue in order to not upset advertisers is necessarily that wise. Scanning and posting rules without authorization exists. Recasting figures for both personal use and for resale is a real thing. I think being able to discuss the issue including why people do it is probably a better approach than censorship to appease commercial interests.

I don't make the rules though, even if those who do disappoint me.

 frozenwastes wrote:

 Cyporiean wrote:

 frozenwastes wrote:
It sucks when commercial interests dictate what people can and cannot discuss. As for ads, do people actually see them? I thought all the smart internet users use an adblocking extension on their browser.

I'm sorry for wanting to make a buck and try to be able to afford to eat.

Do you advertise here? I've never seen your ad (or anyone's as I don't see any ads). Geeky people into miniature gaming often are more tech savvy than your average computer user, so I wonder how many times an ad is actually seen by a real person and not just screened away by adblock. Is advertising money spent on DakkaDakka actually worth the return? I think threads discussing a given game or kickstarter would probably be better, but I don't know. There's probably some means of tracking linking based off ad clicks vs non-ad clicks.

I totally get why not having threads asking for pirate copies of rules might be a good idea, but I don't think a policy demanding everyone refrain from expressing their opinion on a given issue in order to not upset advertisers is necessarily that wise.

I'm fairly sure On The Lamb advertises here. Dakka does host the official OTL Forum after all.

For the love of Pete.

The people who run this site have decided that discussion about piracy in the context of where to obtain it is off limits on this site.

People use this site at their sufference, if you don't like it, don't post here! I'm pretty sure there's some sort of terms and conditions check box when you sign up.

Only on Dakka could a simple, logical demand generate multiple pages featuring debate on people's right to post about what they like or the veracity of the reasons given why they can't.

Do as you're bloody told and quit complaining.

Not only do we advertise here, have our forums here, but Cy, miskatonicalum, and myself support Dakka through our DCM memberships.

You can see everyone who advertises on the site by going here:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/core/services_existingads.jsp

I doubt the banner does us much service if any, and I don't care about that. I love Dakka, its one of (if not the) best places to discuss Tabletop Gaming on the net, and I will happily support that.

Only on Dakka could a simple, logical demand generate multiple pages featuring debate on people's right to post about what they like or the veracity of the reasons given why they can't.

Sadly that seems to be everywhere on the net tbh.

herp derp appeasing commercial interests

Want to fund the site yourself then? Help us cast off our 'commercial overlords?' Because someone's gonna have to do it if dakkadakka gaks all over it's sponsors.

Funny how easy it is for people to say stuff like this when its not their website and their investment on the line.

Many forums about a huge number of different things from all across the net have, for well over a decade, taken an approach of not allowing the discussion of piracy. If the goal is to reduce piracy, then such a policy is a proven failure. It's never been easier to get pirated rules and recast miniatures.

I think an honest approach where people talk about what really motivates people and writers of rules and producers of miniatures can honestly tell people how piracy impacts them might be more productive than censoring the topic in general. You're never going to convince a serious pirate not to pirate, but the casual pirate is waiting to be convinced to see you as a person and not a faceless entity lobbying for the banning of certain topics of conversation.

People need to see the makers of rules and figures as other people and banning the topic of conversation is not going to get you there. I think we're passing up a huge opportunity here.

Discussing piracy is not the issue.
Suggesting it and making it possible, however, are - and there is no reason that should occur here.

Unless I am entirely misreading the point.

 frozenwastes wrote:
Many forums about a huge number of different things from all across the net have, for well over a decade, taken an approach of not allowing the discussion of piracy. If the goal is to reduce piracy, then such a policy is a proven failure. It's never been easier to get pirated rules and recast miniatures.

I think an honest approach where people talk about what really motivates people and writers of rules and producers of miniatures can honestly tell people how piracy impacts them might be more productive than censoring the topic in general. You're never going to convince a serious pirate not to pirate, but the casual pirate is waiting to be convinced to see you as a person and not a faceless entity lobbying for the banning of certain topics of conversation.

People need to see the makers of rules and figures as other people and banning the topic of conversation is not going to get you there. I think we're passing up a huge opportunity here.

Well, then I suggest you go and start your own forum with this policy, best of luck!

In the meantime, respect the policy of the site you're posting on, and if you really feel strongly, engage Yakface and the mods in a discussion and see if you can change their mind.

 frozenwastes wrote:
but the casual pirate is waiting to be convinced to see you as a person and not a faceless entity lobbying for the banning of certain topics of conversation.

The internet is not the appropriate forum for this, honestly. People aren't persons across a media that's intentionally used to be faceless.

 frozenwastes wrote:
everyones running their forums wrong

Gotta admit man, like I said earlier, its easier for the people who don't have a forum to make statements like this.

Besides there is always /tg/ on 4chan. Plenty of piracy stuff in there.

That's probably a very good point, I'll drop the issue, but my parting words will be this:

Problems are never solved by shoving them out of sight and banning talking about them in an honest way. A person who comes here looking for a pirate copy will never be convinced to not pirate by having their thread deleted or their account sanctioned. Real contact with the target of their piracy might be the only real way to effect change in that area, even if the internet limits one's ability to look each other in the eye.

We also ban swearing but dont expect to change anybody's way of speaking. We do it to set the tone of discussion to one that suits our tastes, not to change the world or the audience. I couldnt care less how many of our readers actually pirate stuff, but I dont want them asking where to find pirated material here and making piracy easier for those who would not otherwise seek it out, as well as sullying dakka's good name and reputation with blatant copyright infringement.

Create a "recast" or "piracy" section...set all threads to auto delete after 5 seconds, or make them auto lock.

What is the policy now? Do people posting these threads get a MOD warning? Thread delete? Auto ban?

 Dakkamite wrote:
What about scratch-builds? I mean each stompa someone lovingly hand crafts is just as much $$$ out of GW's pocket as a recast or whatever, but I don't see anyone complaining about it.

To be honest, I can understand the no-piracy thing, but the excessive policy of "shut the feth up and buy a rulebook" whenever someone asks a question about the rules isn't productive at all.

As long as they not put it up for sale or are stuff that doesn't yet have been released by GW then i don't see a problem.

Be aware pirates PRISM is watching you!

 marv335 wrote:
Dakka Dakka;
Our users have posted a total of 5,630,131 messages
We have 73,759 registered users.

Warseer;
Posts 6,691,622
Members 84,507

Warseer has 10,748 more registered users and 1,061,531 more posts.

I have to admit, this surprises me.

 Cyporiean wrote:

 frozenwastes wrote:
It sucks when commercial interests dictate what people can and cannot discuss. As for ads, do people actually see them? I thought all the smart internet users use an adblocking extension on their browser.

I'm sorry for wanting to make a buck and try to be able to afford to eat.

I think trying to argue that piracy is taking away from your actual income is a tricksy one. I feel people who turn to recasters do so because they weren't going to pay full price for something to begin with, and people who privately recast for themselves tend to be the sorts who also actually buy large amounts of models legally as well (similar to the music industry where studies have shown that pirates are often the greatest supporters of the music industry as well as pirating).

Whether piracy hurts the content creators is a debatable point.

However, copyright infringement is not legal, so I don't feel Dakka mods need to start tugging on heart strings about the poor retailers and talk about ethics as to why they don't want piracy promoted on their website. It should be as simple as:

Copyright infringement is illegal. Dakka does not support illegal activities and does not want to skirt the boundaries of illegal activities, therefore promoting copyright infringement is banned.

Another website I frequent has this rule:
You will not discuss, suggest, engage, or encourage any ILLEGAL ACTIVITIES. Links provided to locations that deal with any such activity are also expressly forbidden.

This allows them to lock and ban users for promoting piracy without having to get in to the murky waters of ethics and morales.

 frozenwastes wrote:
That's probably a very good point, I'll drop the issue, but my parting words will be this:

Problems are never solved by shoving them out of sight and banning talking about them in an honest way. A person who comes here looking for a pirate copy will never be convinced to not pirate by having their thread deleted or their account sanctioned. Real contact with the target of their piracy might be the only real way to effect change in that area, even if the internet limits one's ability to look each other in the eye.

To be perfectly honest though, if that person was looking to pirate anyways, a bunch of good Samaritans on a forum probably isn't going to change that person's mind. I can say all day "piracy is wrong, you should support the developers", but if you want their product for free, you're either going to have to pirate it, or hope some crazy person just gives it to you. (and technically I shouldn't really talk, since I don't buy GW models, I just use 3rd party stuff, but that's a whole different kettle of fish)

And besides, they're not banning discussions on piracy. Heck there's a thread discussing how to spot recasters right on the first page.

It's just against the rules to say "Hey guys, here's a link to download the new Eldar codex for free." or "hey guys, here's a good recaster so you can get your minis for half price." or "hey, can someone PM me the rules to the Dakkajet."

I'm not crazy about it, but they gotta do what they gotta do. It may seem silly to us, but potential advertisers would care about this. Do you think Victoria Lamb would host adds on the site if there were constantly threads on how to get cheap recasts of her stuff?

I'm one of those crazy people that don't use adblocker though, so you should probably ignore my crazy ramblings.

 frozenwastes wrote:
It sucks when commercial interests dictate what people can and cannot discuss. As for ads, do people actually see them? I thought all the smart internet users use an adblocking extension on their browser.

It sucks when entitled, morally bankrupt thieves spam the forum with garbage.

No, Dakka can't stop piracy. That doesn't meant they have to let it happen here.

 frozenwastes wrote:
The way to fight piracy is to develop a relationship with your customer. To make them see the creative people at the centre of a game as people and not just see a faceless entity.

GW does the opposite, so people are more willing to pirate their stuff.

This. Also overpricing your product to the point where a recaster can still make a hefty profit on half price forgeries doesn't hurt. How often do you see Privateer Press, Wyrd, Reaper, Red Box, etc recasts? That and spite are a nasty combination.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Cyporiean wrote:

 frozenwastes wrote:
It sucks when commercial interests dictate what people can and cannot discuss. As for ads, do people actually see them? I thought all the smart internet users use an adblocking extension on their browser.

I'm sorry for wanting to make a buck and try to be able to afford to eat.

I think trying to argue that piracy is taking away from your actual income is a tricksy one.

She was referring to being an advertiser. I don't really get the need to filter them here. They aren't in your face with epileptic flashing, and hey, you might see something cool.

I actually find a lot of wargaming ads to be pretty cool and sometimes amusing.

 Byte wrote:

 marv335 wrote:
Dakka Dakka;
Our users have posted a total of 5,630,131 messages
We have 73,759 registered users.

Warseer;
Posts 6,691,622
Members 84,507

Warseer has 10,748 more registered users and 1,061,531 more posts.

I have to admit, this surprises me.

As Yak explained before, it's because they've got databases of old users going back years longer. Dakka has a lot more traffic.

 legoburner wrote:
We also ban swearing but dont expect to change anybody's way of speaking. We do it to set the tone of discussion to one that suits our tastes, not to change the world or the audience. I couldnt care less how many of our readers actually pirate stuff, but I dont want them asking where to find pirated material here and making piracy easier for those who would not otherwise seek it out, as well as sullying dakka's good name and reputation with blatant copyright infringement.

Well since I joined this site I have swore less in real life and on other forums and I have also made an effort to use correct grammar and punctuation on other forums now.

I don't think it's about commercial interests. Just the type of board that Yak, Lego and the mods want Dakka to be. An "above board" kind of place, rather than a miniature-warez board, if you will. As for advertisers, a big site like this costs a bit to host, so I don't mind them here, as they are unobtrusive. If this was a warez-ish site, you wouldn't blame retailers and producers from giving Dakka a wide berth. Instead we have people like Tre', Vic, Joel, Emily, Mark et al here as actual participating community members (as opposed to just visiting for long enough to pimp a kickstarter...)

 frozenwastes wrote:
It sucks when commercial interests dictate what people can and cannot discuss. As for ads, do people actually see them? I thought all the smart internet users use an adblocking extension on their browser.

I don't. There's a lot of good content on this and other sites for essentially free, so why on earth would I want to deprive them of revenue? It's only irritating for videos and even then, I can just mute the sound and flip to another window for a minute or so.

This is one of the sites where I choose to let the adds show,

because they will be adverts for the sort of stuff I'm interested in. I might see something new and cool, I might see a great value deal

win for the advertisers, win for me, win for Dakka

(but yes while randomly wandering the net add blockers are a good thing)

As to piracy I agree with Dakka's stance it may go on, but lets keep it out of here

 frozenwastes wrote:
It sucks when commercial interests dictate what people can and cannot discuss. As for ads, do people actually see them? I thought all the smart internet users use an adblocking extension on their browser.

It has more to do with legal interests and the fact this site isn't a democracy. The owner of the site dictates what you can post or not, you have no rights. Then again you aren't forced to use the site either.

People who have a difference with what the owner of a website wants or doesn't want to show up can always pay for their own hosting and make their own site.