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The problem is there are lots of alternative game systems for 'generic fantasy minatures.'

So when GW get too focused on short term returns, there are options for disgruntled for fantasy players to move to.(KoW and AoA for example.)

GW dare not let go of WHFB,as it would be too hard to explain away to share holders as stated before.

Tycho wrote:

Weren't Epic and Lord of The Rings?

No. Epic's heyday was back when you could still by SpaceHulk in toy stores and GW sold several other board games in addition to Fantasy and 40k. Epic, like Blood Bowl, was a popular product, but not a flagship

Uhhh... that doesn't sound right at all. Epic was part of the big three, for ten years, starting with Adeptus Titanicus in 1988 through Space Marine 1st edition (1989), Space Marine 2nd edition (1991), and then Titan Legions (1994), before the utter ruination of it due to Epic 40k (1997). At Games Day '96, there were more Epic events than Warhammer Fantasy, with several Titan Bring N' Battle tables (every kill you got a free blister, I got a bunch of troll slayers if I remember correctly)

GW is not getting the same return on its investment with fantasy as it is with 40k, that is not in dispute. Some people who have a good track record on rumours have predicted really big changes for fantasy when 9th edition is released. Could be a watershed moment for fantasy.

GW has invested a lot of money in plastic miniatures development for fantasy, as long as the line is profitable I dont see them abandoning it.

JWhex wrote:
GW has invested a lot of money in plastic miniatures development for fantasy, as long as the line is profitable I dont see them abandoning it.

So, it could be axed then.

 Easy E wrote:

JWhex wrote:
GW has invested a lot of money in plastic miniatures development for fantasy, as long as the line is profitable I dont see them abandoning it.

So, it could be axed then.

Sure, any line that is unprofitable with no foreseeable hope of profit should be axed. I dont think there is any evidence to suggest that is presently the case with fantasy. Just because it is under performing compared to 40k doesnt mean it is not worthwhile to the company.

Fantasy has been neglected for a very long time, GW has let the product stagnate. It took them forever to release a meaningful number of armybooks for the current edition. A lot of people attribute lost sales to warmachine, which I am sure is true but a lot of the older players in my local area that left fantasy went to Flames of War. I expect a few of those will eventually return to whfb. I wouldnt generalize too much about players going from whfb to FoW because my local area is really into FoW in a big way even though it is starting to taper off some.

A quick glance at GW's Investor Relations page tells us that Warhammer 40,000 and Warhammer Fantasy are their two main flagship product lines. Nowhere else, without going into the annual and half-annual reports, mentions their other specialist games by name. Can they? Sure, but it'd be like intentionally chopping off one hand that still works fine.

xxvaderxx, you are mistaking the "Other" segment in their financial reports. The "Other" market segment covers Forge World, Black Library, and Warhammer World. Warhammer World is their physical location in Nottingham, UK, not WHFB. In fact, their report for 2012 indicates that the addition of the Warhammer Forge line to Forge World had been well-received and generated a fresh influx of revenues into that market segment. If anything, this is an indication that WHFB is still alive and kicking, thriving even.

Unless anyone else has data besides anecdotal store information from a handful of places, there is no concrete data to indicate that WHFB is underperforming or decreasing in sales and popularity.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Epic was core.

The difference between cutting Epic as a Core game and Fantasy as a Core game is cutting Epic didn't cut the 40k IP from their flagship titles. They still had 28mm 40k. Cutting Fantasy would mean cutting their WHFB IP from their flagship games, which as one of their 2 homegrown IP's, would deservedly be very worrying to investors, as already said.

Basically, vutting Epic dropped a game. Cutting WHFB would basically be dropping an IP.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Easy E wrote:

JWhex wrote:
GW has invested a lot of money in plastic miniatures development for fantasy, as long as the line is profitable I dont see them abandoning it.

So, it could be axed then.

You're confusing wildly popular with profitable. Even if Fantasy isn't in the top 10 games played, the fact that so much of it is in plastic means that it very definitely could still be profitable. Once the models are in plastic, producing them is cheap as chips, and plastic molds aren't quite as expensive to make these days as they used to be.

 Enigwolf wrote:


Unless anyone else has data besides anecdotal store information from a handful of places, there is no concrete data to indicate that WHFB is underperforming or decreasing in sales and popularity.

There is a market survey that has been posted several times in other threads that shows Warmachine ahead of whfb in the North American market. So then Warmachine went from zero sales a few years ago to better than whfb. I think we can assume that there has been a drop in whfb popularity.

In my local area whfb seems to be gaining some traction again, last week's local tournament sold out even after making room for more people to sign up. I think 30+ played and more than 40 wanted to. Not bad for a local 3 game tourney. I just hope that 9th edition attracts rather than repels players when it comes out.

 -Loki- wrote:

The difference between cutting Epic as a Core game and Fantasy as a Core game is cutting Epic didn't cut the 40k IP from their flagship titles. They still had 28mm 40k. Cutting Fantasy would mean cutting their WHFB IP from their flagship games, which as one of their 2 homegrown IP's, would deservedly be very worrying to investors, as already said.

Basically, vutting Epic dropped a game. Cutting WHFB would basically be dropping an IP.

Oh I understand that. My point was more that Epic was a core game, and not a specialist or side game like all the other side games of that era (Blood Bowl, Necromunda, Mordheim, etc.). Of course dropping it (or destroying it, really, with Epic 40,000) didn't kill an IP, it just removed a game. That's why I can't see them removing Fantasy, because if they remove it they have nothing using the Warhammer World, and that won't happen.

fantasy just seems like too much work.

who wants to paint that much crap and then screw around making sure it all ranks up? who wants to transport all that crap? not me.

i think theyre in danger of turning off 40k players if they keep trying to push the model count.

I... think that WHFB needs an overhaul, which is sad, given how recently it was revised.

Most of the fantasy miniatures players that I know have migrated to KoW, largely because they dislike the WHFB 8 rules so very much.

But my local group has long played more WHFB than 40K, and still plays Battlesystem, from way back when. Heck, I can sometimes find players for WHFB 3 (my favorite WH).... it is not the fantasy part of the game that is making them leave.

There is just something... missing? in the rules.

The Auld Grump

kb305 wrote:
fantasy just seems like too much work.

who wants to paint that much crap and then screw around making sure it all ranks up? who wants to transport all that crap? not me.

i think theyre in danger of turning off 40k players if they keep trying to push the model count.

It was a lot nicer when models didn't overhang their bases. It doesn't take a genius to figure out if you make models larger than their bases, they won't rank up easily. One that particularly annoys me is that even if models rank up easily, so often they overhang the FRONT of their base, so that so many regiments in Fantasy can't actually be moved in to base to base contact for combat.

But I have always found Fantasy to be a more satisfying game than 40k, I haven't really played 8th edition which brought in a lot of changes I didn't like, but overall I think regiment based games make for better actual games.

Simple answer, no.

JWhex wrote:
GW is not getting the same return on its investment with fantasy as it is with 40k, that is not in dispute. Some people who have a good track record on rumours have predicted really big changes for fantasy when 9th edition is released. Could be a watershed moment for fantasy.

GW has invested a lot of money in plastic miniatures development for fantasy, as long as the line is profitable I dont see them abandoning it.

What happens to the big fish in the small pond when the pond water runs dry? You get one big dead fish that is eaten up by other predators.

Regardless if 9th is Awesome or not. People voted with their wallet on 8th. You are not going to get all of those customers that GW pissed off. They either left the hobby all together or went to another game system.

Never piss off your customer base for they have long memories oh how much of a Gak your company is.

 Adam LongWalker wrote:

JWhex wrote:
GW is not getting the same return on its investment with fantasy as it is with 40k, that is not in dispute. Some people who have a good track record on rumours have predicted really big changes for fantasy when 9th edition is released. Could be a watershed moment for fantasy.

GW has invested a lot of money in plastic miniatures development for fantasy, as long as the line is profitable I dont see them abandoning it.

What happens to the big fish in the small pond when the pond water runs dry? You get one big dead fish that is eaten up by other predators.

Regardless if 9th is Awesome or not. People voted with their wallet on 8th. You are not going to get all of those customers that GW pissed off. They either left the hobby all together or went to another game system.

Never piss off your customer base for they have long memories oh how much of a Gak your company is.

Well not always, the lungfish excretes a mucous coating that hardens and it buries itself in the mud were it can survive for years. Also there are killifish in Africa that have desication resistant eggs and of course there are catfish and snakehead fish that can migrate over land if their ponds dry up or are treated with poison.

JWhex wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:


Unless anyone else has data besides anecdotal store information from a handful of places, there is no concrete data to indicate that WHFB is underperforming or decreasing in sales and popularity.

There is a market survey that has been posted several times in other threads that shows Warmachine ahead of whfb in the North American market. So then Warmachine went from zero sales a few years ago to better than whfb. I think we can assume that there has been a drop in whfb popularity.

In my local area whfb seems to be gaining some traction again, last week's local tournament sold out even after making room for more people to sign up. I think 30+ played and more than 40 wanted to. Not bad for a local 3 game tourney. I just hope that 9th edition attracts rather than repels players when it comes out.

I've seen the threads. Unfortunately those "datasets" (if they are even worthy of the title) are not a representative sample of the entire population of WHFB sales to show statistical significance and a high correlation coefficient between an increase in Warmachine sales and a decrease in WHFB popularity. It's a false assumption made under a logical fallacy. Until someone does a market study of the entire hobby games market, we're not going to know how 40k and WHFB are performing relative to other games. But of course, GW is still turning far higher profits with their core lines and even if you divide them up, their revenues are still way higher than Warmachine's, I would bet.

If they drop Fantasy it'll just keep being played by grognards in my area for the foreseeable future.

They'd also have to be money-hating idiots not to just sell the franchise. Luckily they only tick one of those boxes.

Like 40K GW have pushed for bigger and bigger armies in Fantasy, but the problem with Fantasy is that the majority of units are generic fantasy which can be easily substituted with other much cheaper plastic units from other manufacturers. GW make an almost generic product and charge the earth for it. Other than the brand name of 'Games Workshop' being on it I'm not sure that Fantasy has going for it.

It still sells quite well, they'd be mad to drop it given that a large number of GW customers but only Fantasy and not 40k. But it does seen the most vulnerable of the games to competition. That's GW's fault though, having a game rooted in generic ideas but charging prices like they have exclusivity on making skeletons and elves.

Doubtful, they're still putting lots of money into it.

Falling sales might prompt GW to design a game that people want to play and can afford to get into without selling a kidney. It might influence 40k positively too (instead of the bigger is better releases).

Them axing it would basically mean they admit they can't. Not a good sign for us and towards investors.

It's often been observed in the past that WFB is far more popular in Europe than it is in the US. The sales figures given all seem to be anecdotal and mostly US-based.

I'd say its UK rather than Europe as a whole. But then their market penetration in the UK is much more dominant than elsewhere.

Possibly. They axed specialist stuff and licensed them out as video games.

Warhammer gets a steady stream of video games (much more than W40k does), and with a total war style game coming out from Creative Assembly themselves it could be on the cards.

Although I doubt it. Also, anyone else see the W40k MMO?

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
Like 40K GW have pushed for bigger and bigger armies in Fantasy, but the problem with Fantasy is that the majority of units are generic fantasy which can be easily substituted with other much cheaper plastic units from other manufacturers. GW make an almost generic product and charge the earth for it. Other than the brand name of 'Games Workshop' being on it I'm not sure that Fantasy has going for it.

It still sells quite well, they'd be mad to drop it given that a large number of GW customers but only Fantasy and not 40k. But it does seen the most vulnerable of the games to competition. That's GW's fault though, having a game rooted in generic ideas but charging prices like they have exclusivity on making skeletons and elves.

There really is not a comprehensive range of cheap plastic miniatures that are nearly as good as what GW produces. Mantic undead are decent but their elves suck and I am not too keen on their dwarf range. I have yet to see an army at a tournament that wasnt 90 % GW and the tournaments around here have not been run by GW for many, many years.

There are many excellent nonGW miniature makers, but you wont find a cheap army that looks half decent. I have started a Korean theme Empire counts as army with Perry Bro, miniatures, but it is getting to be hella expensive.

JWhex wrote:
There are many excellent nonGW miniature makers, but you wont find a cheap army that looks half decent. I have started a Korean theme Empire counts as army with Perry Bro, miniatures, but it is getting to be hella expensive.

<Consul Scipio looks over at his massive stack of Perry Choeson Koreans in need of an excuse to finish> JWhex, you sir get an internet cookie for such a good idea and inspiring me to finish this great looking range of miniatures. Thank you.

 Azazelx wrote:
It's often been observed in the past that WFB is far more popular in Europe than it is in the US. The sales figures given all seem to be anecdotal and mostly US-based.

In the way way past.

Ever since 8th edition was released the trend that WHFB was more popular than 40k has been reversed.

Practically every WHFB over here has gone over to either WMH or FoW.

If GW were to axe Fantasy, I think that they would reduce the production of new plastic kits for the range. Look at the Hobbit. See much plastic stuff coming out? I would expect Fantasy to be reduced to similar levels years before they would axe the game. GW could also produce more kits that can be used in Fantasy and 40k. Those kits would still give them a return on investment if they cut Fantasy.

The way things are now, I do not see them cutting Fantasy any time soon. It earns them plenty of money, just not as much as 40k.

In defense of those who think Fantasy will be cut, GW is not making new plastic versions of basic troops for many of its armies. Many of the old sculpts are bad and should be updated. However, GW has decided not to make the investment.

I was always under the impression that 40K was the big thing in the US, and WFB was the big thing everywhere else (or at least Europe...)

They've been invested too much in Fantasy lately to drop it. Though a lot of what GW does makes little sense financially, so who knows.

 Consul Scipio wrote:

JWhex wrote:
There are many excellent nonGW miniature makers, but you wont find a cheap army that looks half decent. I have started a Korean theme Empire counts as army with Perry Bro, miniatures, but it is getting to be hella expensive.

<Consul Scipio looks over at his massive stack of Perry Choeson Koreans in need of an excuse to finish> JWhex, you sir get an internet cookie for such a good idea and inspiring me to finish this great looking range of miniatures. Thank you.

Yeah those figs are awesome, now if I could just figure out how to use my 28 mm scale resin Turtle Boat in Warhammer I would be set.