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An easy way to get autocannons is from the IG heavy weapons team box, or if you have an IG buddy, see if he has any leftover autocannon bits you can take. It's super easy to convert one with basic CSM.

 Blackskull wrote:
for tyranids and for less of a modeling hassle drop havocs use dakkapred

Dakkapred 112 pts
HB sponsons
warpflame gargoyles
havoc launcher

here you go cheaper and more durable than havocs, generates same hits against flyers, kills ALOT of infantry and you can attach a combiflamer to scare gaunts.
I took 3 to a 500pt game (im not popular now)
plus with the dark art of magnetising you can swap the weapons out for 3 lascannons when you start facing more tanks in higher point games.

The real threat of a tyranid army isn't in it's 10 gants and 20ish spawned gants, which he paid a staggering 50 points for. The real threat is the monstrous creatures. The Tervigon and winged tyrant. A 112 point dakka pred is solid against infantry, but this army isn't relying on it's infantry to get stuff done. Even firing at the winged tyrant, you are only forcing 1 grounding check, which isn't scaring anyone. In 1500+ points, sure, take a dakka pred, but it's too niche and too ineffective against this list to waste points on.

I tried the Predator in my first game though it was AC/LC + Havoc Launcher instead of full dakka. It did very well against the Tervigon and Gants though his Flyrant ripped it a new one. Thats why I was going to trial the 4 AC Havocs as a viable Pred alternative.

Thanks for all the input guys - always great hearing from you old pros :-)

preaditors shouldnt try blend their roles as they can do one role realy well or they can attempt to do 2 and suck at both.

if his tyrant easily killed the pread then your havocs have no chance so this answers this entire thread, i know people may hate you for bringing one to a 500 pt game but a heldrake here is the easy way out, its high strength vector strikes and AV12 side armor make flyrants a complete joke and the baleflamer has suffecent strength to injure a tervigon.

i hate how most of our problems can be solved by such an ugly looking model but helldrake is king of the fast attack.

So after listening to all the advice and knowing that he'll pretty much take Flyrant/Tervigon/Gants I'm going with the following :


sorcerer level 2, term armour, combi plasma, force stave, spell familiar = 132

2 x 10 cultists all with autoguns = 120

Heldrake = 170

Obliterator MoN = 76

I'm hoping the Flyrant can be taken out easily by the Heldrake but I'm planning on keeping the 2 cultist blobs fairly close so that if his Tyrant gets within range I've got potentially 40 autogun shots with rapid fire - and surely out of all those he will fail at least one grounding test right? Once he's down (and hopefully taking a falling wound) my Oblit can take a pop with lascannon or melta - along with the plasma on the Sorcerer. Once the Flyrant is out of the game I think I will be able to mop up the rest of his army fairly quickly.

What would your suggestions be for the Heldrake weapon?

baleflamer, no contest BS3 of the drake makes the cannon rubbish and its not ap3 so relies on number of hits to peicre flyrant hide. simply fly over him and vector strike the sucker and if he drops out the sky then flame him after in contempt also apart from the tervigon nothing will get at his AV12 so feel free to hover to help turning after the first hit.

a grounding test can only be taken against 1 shooting unit, ie it doesnt matter how many hits you get with a squad he will only take one test against that squad. obliterator looks silly on his own and will be mobbed by gaunts or be stepped on by a monster and so id just drop him for more cultists and give said cultists flamers to kill gaunts.

use telepathy its an easy way to hurt a tervigon. take telepathy and psychic scream at him, as it insta hits and wounds this can be used to great effect aginst the flyrant its also the primaris power so can always be taken, combi plasma is a little redundant as you cant fire both but as you will be rolling tests under shadow in the warp so spell familiar is vital for rerolls maybe keep it for emergency or drop for more cultists. telepathy with lucky rolling can give cultist fearless or panic a large group of gaunts making them run away, since their leadership is terrible they will keep running.

10 man squad for cultists are silly they die too quckly, the fleshborer has short range but will drop cultists instantly, use larger squads so you can put out more dakka at safer ranges, also i know the flyrant is big and scary but you cant damage it easily so dont waste shooting on it, once the helldrake gets in then that sucker gets it but before then just try to take cover or kill his gaunts, keep them near the sorcerer so he can scream at him if he gets to close.

since psychic scream is the only useful power your likely to get cosider droping a mastery level in favor of extra cultist gunners. more dakka is always usefull

my idea

DIE BUGGERS DIE!! (anti nid list)
HQ
sorcerer mastery lvl1, spell familer, terminator armor, force stave 100pts

troops
20 cultists with autoguns, and one flamer 115pts

20 cultists with autoguns, and one flamer 115pts

fast attack
Heldrake with baleflamer 170 pts

500 pts dead lol get snap fit imperal guardsmen to expand the squads cheaply

I have a feeling I should rename this post to Heldrake or not to Heldrake :-)

So is the baleflamer on a turret and so can it be fired in any direction?

BrudeUK wrote:
I have a feeling I should rename this post to Heldrake or not to Heldrake :-)

So is the baleflamer on a turret and so can it be fired in any direction?

Yep. check the Chaos Codex FAQ to confirm.

aye its a turret it also has torrent so template can be placed 12 inches away measuing from the base and in any direction you want,

Oh even nicer - toasted Nid anyone? :-)

According to the FAQ the AC is also turret which could be handy to know too. I was imagining only being able to fire straight forward with the AC and so having to manoeuvre to keep the target dead ahead.

All in all seems a pretty powerfil unit. I have to ask though what weaknesses does it have? Low rear armour so id have to protect that I guess - but anything else?

AV12 is the highest armor you can get on a flyer and since his S6 vector strikes only hit side armor he will struggle to kill you that way, the drake also has a 5+ invunrable and can regenerate hull points with it will not die, making it super hard to kill. i dont know what gun he gave the flyrant but flyers are immune to blast weapons so if he gave it a heavy venom cannon he cant do anything much to kill it, however if he gave it twilinked devourers watch your tail as S6 shot there will hurt alot

weaknesses are mainly due to positioning the flyrant is an FMC so has a minimum move distance of 12 where your drake must move at least 18,if he sticks close to you try and shake him off also flyers begin the game in reserves so your at the flyrants tender mercy for a at least turn before you can curb stomp him, if you foul up the reserve rolls this could end badly.
you have a slight advatage but skill in movement and luck will be key factors in this combat remeber he cant ground you but you can ground him and you hit harder

in short this will be an areial battle between an monsterous dragon and a boiengineered killing machine....bards will write songs about it, i want to know how this game goes please post

Will be my pleasure - playing again on thursday so will let you know the result of the flying heavies on the Friday.

Havent actually got the Heldrake model so will likely be using the Helbrute as proxy :-)

It's pretty brutal to face a flyrant in 500 points. That guys going to be coming in at over half your opponents points.

I'd counter with massed cultists and force him to the ground, then light him up.

-Matt

Uhh if that Flyrant has Dual Devourers Heldrake probably isn't gonna win that battle 1 on 1. I'm just saying. All you gotta do is fly over it and shoot it in the butt with 12 s6 TL shots and the Drake will go boom.

All the Drake will do if it Vectors a Tyrant will be 1 or 2 wounds, while lining it's backside up perfectly for the Nid player.

Don't get me wrong, Heldrake is great, but killing FMCs with mean guns isn't it's specialty.

killing any gunweilding flyer isnt its specalty its got no skyfire weapons, the helldrakes weakness is mainly other flyers

plus the flyrant can only take one other weapon due to wings so he can only get 6 shots which leaves a small chance

All this time I have been working off the assumption that the Heldrake could fire at his Flyrant using its own BS (even though 3 isn't great it's better than snapshot) as they were both flyers. But now you've said that I cant find anything about either the Heldrake or its 2 weapons that mentions Skyfire! So basically the only weapon it has against a Flyrant is the Vector Strike. But surely I need to pass over it in order to perform the VS - and wouldn't that automatically present the Flyrant with my AV10 backside for his turn?

Suddenly the Heldrake looks like less of a viable option for taking down his Flyrant than I at first thought!

flyrant has 4 wounds and we dont know what he armed it with, blasts and templates dont hit flyers but they do hit grounded ones, the atocannon will bounce off his 3+ save and you wont generate enough hits to sink it. if he gave it a heavy venom cannon which judgeing by your luck with preaditors he did then you have nothing to worry about as vector strikes always hit side armor

however good news is that flyers are restricted to 90 degree turns when airborne so hit him facewise and use your superior speed to zoom out of the 18 inch range of the devourers, the only way he will be able to get his guns at you is by landing as the alternative is moving further out of range or sprinting of the board to come in later, if he lands then he cant skyfire, once hes grounded hover and than turn around and try to flame him or shoot at him or set up another pass, keep him at a distance.

Actually the last time we played he had it as a pure melee Flyrant with the Lash and Bonesword. He didn't have any ranged weaponry. Not knowing the Tyranids Codex well enough I don't know if he could take both the Lash and Bonesword and also ranged weapons on top of that? I can't assume he will take the same configuration on the Flyrant again so I have to be prepared for the Devourers - in which case your information has been invaluable!

I suppose if he goes purely melee or with the cannon then i'm laughing

he can only take one weapon if he has wings so its bonesword or guns, thats a bit of a sucky flyrant as he hasnt planned for areal warfare at all

 Blackskull wrote:
he can only take one weapon if he has wings so its bonesword or guns, thats a bit of a sucky flyrant as he hasnt planned for areal warfare at all

Where did you get that? It's just a problem of the model that the wings take up a slot for a pair of arms and the only thing the wings are preventing you from taking is the armored shell.

 Shadox wrote:

 Blackskull wrote:
he can only take one weapon if he has wings so its bonesword or guns, thats a bit of a sucky flyrant as he hasnt planned for areal warfare at all

Where did you get that? It's just a problem of the model that the wings take up a slot for a pair of arms and the only thing the wings are preventing you from taking is the armored shell.

This is correct. Lash whip/bonesword uses 1 of the 2 available weapon slots on the tyrant.

Standard loadout for a winged tyrant is 2 twin-linked Brainleech devourers. It gives him 12 S6 AP- shot with re-rolls to hit, and the ability to skyfire.

 Shadox wrote:

 Blackskull wrote:
he can only take one weapon if he has wings so its bonesword or guns, thats a bit of a sucky flyrant as he hasnt planned for areal warfare at all

Where did you get that? It's just a problem of the model that the wings take up a slot for a pair of arms and the only thing the wings are preventing you from taking is the armored shell.

This exactly... Flyrants are fully allowed to take two shots. I don't know where you got the idea that they can't, but I hope you aren't trying to enforce it on another player. From a modeling perspective, the wings fill one arm slot which is annoying, because he still HAS to have two sets of weapons. The most common solutions to this are to:
1. Give him the Fleshborer hive from the Tyrannofex. It looks cool, and suitably "Dakka-y"
2. Strap one pair of Devourers onto another pair so they dont take up two arm holes.
3. Trim/GS the wings onto the carapace instead of in the arm holes.

Either way, the rules stand: Flyrants are free to purchase 2x Devourers, granting 12 TL shots at Strength 6 Ap -. He will then proceed to terrorize all other flyers, especially Helturkeys.

EDIT: Ninja'd

To answer your question, fliers come with the ability to choose to skyfire automatically. However, you cannot shoot at fliers with templates or blast weapons.

A heldrake with the hades gun could shoot at fliers. A heldrake with the flamer cannot. However, the flamer is so good at killing ground targets that 9/10 that's what the Heldrake will be equipped with.

All I can say to that is 'Holy Crap'!! I has enough problems with him just having the melee weapons in our first game - if he can start popping me at range I may have to seriously rethink my army! I realise that one model takes up half his points but it looks like it will be taking all the firepower of my whole list just to kill it off. And in the meantime his Tervigon has spawned god knows how many gants - so finish off the FMC and have a horde and another MC to deal with.

This Flyrant of his seems crazy - maybe I need to start a new thread called 'Dealing with Flyrants'! Though from what I have read before everyone just says get it grounded to kill it off. In my list the largest amount of potential ground checks will be coming from the 2 blobs of cultists and if he goes ranged he can wipe them all up fairly quickly :(

 StarHunter25 wrote:
An easy way to get autocannons is from the IG heavy weapons team box, or if you have an IG buddy, see if he has any leftover autocannon bits you can take. It's super easy to convert one with basic CSM.

I like ork big shootas

only tyranid player at my club feilds swarmlord and doesnt use tyrants at all, also all images of him ive seen show him with one gun, truely very sorry i shouldnt give advice agianst units i havent fought.
but if thats true than that things a arieal nightmare, still the evade devourer tactic i posted should still help but as he could potentaly shoot 12 shots your front and sides are also at risk as that could glance you to peices. the drake is still your best chance though given the nature of the target the autocannon lools a little more viable, alternatively you could keep baleflamer and have the option to kill the tervigon and lots of gaunts with it, that tyrants impressive but its still only one model thats not even scoring so you could force a draw that way if things look realy bad.

in addition if he sprints of the board he can come back in on any side he wants so sprint off the board as well otherwise your drakes dead, with the threat of a drake in the air he will probably attack that and ignore whats going on the ground so failig killing him just make him ignore the dudes on the ground, sorcerer with scream is good aginst LD5 gaunts fearless or not, and its an ok way to chip a tervigon out, but avoid cc as he has the advatage of iniatative

note if tervigon roles a double when making gaunts, he cant spawn any more gaunts with it for rest of game

OK so here is currently what i'm thinking for the army :


sorcerer level 1, term armour, combi bolter, force stave, spell familiar = 97

2 x 10 cultists (9 x autoguns in each) = 118

Heldrake = 170

Havocs (4 x AC) = 115


Dropped the lone Oblit in favour of the increased firepower of those 4 ACs which also have a good chance to take the Flyrant to ground. Still unsure what weapon to put on the Heldrake - there's a good argument for both in my eyes. The flamer will obviously be great for toasting his ground troops whereas the AC has Skyfire and so has a better chance at bringing his Flyrant down even with a BS of 3.

A heldrake will average two wounds if he Vector Strikes a non-buffed Flyrant. Then, point a few random units at him till he drops. At this point he is very likely to take another wound. At this point with only one wound left you should be able to focus him down. He's a tricky customer in 500 points, but as always prone to focus fire. Be careful using the Heldrake, because if the Flyrant lives, he's going down.

Thanks Jifel - am I right in assuming Vector Strikes do not cause a Grounding Check as it is not a shooting attack? Am I also right in thinking that if my opponent goes totally melee that the only thing he can hit me with is his own VS which is resolved on my side armour of 12?

yup and thats at his unmodified strength of 6 so only 6 will glance and you can take 5+ invunrable against it, tough cookie to crack without devorers.