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 Psienesis wrote:
This doesn't jive with the development of AI in the Imperium, nor what we understand of the link between Titan and Princeps. AI, Silica Animus, has been banned since the DAoT, following the war with the Men of Iron, which predates the construction of Titans many millennia over. I would pass this off to yet another moment in Black Library taking liberties with the fluff in order to tell an interesting story, which is perfectly within the authors of the Black Library right to do.

Nothing mortal, or even physical, can "become" a daemon, anymore than a Guardsman can "become" a Leman-Russ tank. A daemon is an intelligent creature that is native to the Immaterium. A Titan is not.

This strikes me more as malignant tech-spirits infiltrating the datastacks of the Titan and subverting its code, allowing it to become possessed by further daemon-code until it became what it became, never bothering to tell it that its firewalls had been compromised.

Given that what the war-spirit of a Titan *is* is not clearly defined (or even agreed upon to actually exist at all), there's a number of interpretations to what happened there that can be put forward.

The bit about the daemon is wrong. If a normal man is in Khorne's domain and successfully beats up a bloodletter & impresses Khorne he can become a daemon. Regardless of interpretation you're wrong due to the presence of Daemon Princes which are still powerful daemons. Titans are also possibly as old as the men of iron given what is written. The Warp itself acts like a physical place w/ little to no defining physics & the chaos gods all have physical forms they take on there. Read the thread before you post bro, that should be a rule, its clear you haven't because all these points have been made and not disputed by anyone else.

Daemon Princes are neither mortals nor daemons, but a transmogrification into an immortal hybrid of both.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
The whole concept of the Machine Spirit has sort of evolved as some of the sillier authors have worked on it.

Really, what the Machine Spirit is supposed to be is 40K tech-phobic language for "really advanced computer that we don't fully understand anymore".

There's no actual spirit, in mystical or metaphysical sense.

The Warp which has power over the physical realm is fed and propagated by sapient life and emotions. 40k isn't a Scifi thing, its more of a Fantasy world with high levels of tech.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Psienesis wrote:
Daemon Princes are neither mortals nor daemons, but a transmogrification into an immortal hybrid of both.

Nope they're daemons and are every bit as immortal as regular daemons, w/ the same absurdly long names, requirement of a vessel, and rules for banishing. THEY ARE DAEMONS. They just have a bit more leniency when trying to appear in the materium. Stop derailing the thread!!! I feel bad for feeding this derailment of my own thread with an undeniably interesting fluff question.

ThePrimordial wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
The whole concept of the Machine Spirit has sort of evolved as some of the sillier authors have worked on it.

Really, what the Machine Spirit is supposed to be is 40K tech-phobic language for "really advanced computer that we don't fully understand anymore".

There's no actual spirit, in mystical or metaphysical sense.

The Warp which has power over the physical realm is fed and propagated by sapient life and emotions. 40k isn't a Scifi thing, its more of a Fantasy world with high levels of tech.

That really doesn't change the fact that Machine Spirits aren't actually spirits. People in 40K just assume it must be supernatural since they don't really understand it.

It's kinda silly, but that's the way it is.

 Lynata wrote:
Well, from how I interpret(!) the Warp, all those things - blood, virgins, Justin Bieber albums () - are really just different ways to achieve the same effect.

The Warp, supposedly, is fueled by emotion - and how you evoke them it up to you. It just so happens that some ways are more potent (and thus popular) than others, but I wouldn't say that they are the only factor. For example, if the veil in Jerold's kitchen suddenly becomes very thin because his world just happens to host a Daemon Invasion, I could see a possibility of that cooker coming to life. Classic horror story right there.

But I'm playing devil's advocate here... as I said, I personally assume that such things would be rare exceptions, maybe even just very, very remote possibilities. I just assume there is a certain "threshold of emotional overflow" that needs to be reached, but how you get there is up to you. Accidental happenings are perhaps less possible with individuals, but only large groups of people. Such as, say, planetary populations in a state of unrest or constant suffering/bliss/etc. Drawing upon the example of Slaanesh again, just applying the same precedent to minor entities due to the smaller scale.
It also ties in with my Living Saint theory, in case you remember.

Sure, a Ritual would be say, a forced possession, in the case of Jerolds Cooker it could be the Daemon or whatever willingly possessing it, taking advantage of the circumstance. But both end up with the same outcome, Jerold being turned into KFC (Krispy Fried Cook)

It would be an extremely rare case I agree, not many people form lasting emotional bonds with their Cookers, at least I hope not, It could give new meaning to grilling a sausage ...

chaos0xomega wrote:
A machine spirit is simply the term used by the backwards, superstitious, religious, machine-worshipping technomancer cults of the 41st millenium to describe something more mundane - Artificial Intelligence, also known as "AI". There is no actual soul or spirit involved here. And before someone tries the "but Machine Spirits can be corrupted by the warp!!!!" ever hear of a computer virus? It wouldn't be the first time the forces of chaos created a "technovirus" by any means...

Regarding the "personalities" aspect, its basically the concept of an aberrant AI (I think thats the term), an old artificial intelligence construct that has, over time, had its hardware degrade (which is also the reason why after some time that lightning fast computer is suddenly slow as gak despite the fact that you are running the same software as you were when you bought it) and there are now "quirks" exhibited as a result of this, such as incompatibility issues with certain users (it makes more sense when you realize a titan crew is plugged in like a piece of hardware) or "malfunctions" such as suddenly discharging a weapon (at a rather convenient time no less) as a result of a crossed wire.

See, I always thought this was the generally accepted understanding of machine spirits.

As I understand it, during the DAoT, humanity fought a war against the Men of Iron, which was a more poetic description of a war with androids and AI. Now, like any other sentient entity, the AIs had to find a way to survive. Their metal bodies were destroyed, but would it be absurd to think that they didn't leave those behind and hide in the vast realm of technology that already existed?
As one last middle finger to humanity, the newly "possessed" machines just start obliterating all evidence that they can exist. The best way to stay hidden is take away anyone's ability to even figure out you are there. So the machines are intentionally corrupting records and just absolutely having a field day with it. Humanity, conversely, has their thumbs up their asses. It's been so long since humanity has actually had to work or learn something that no one really knows how to actually work on these machines. The Androids are "gone" and all the user manuals mysteriously got lost. So when it comes to anything that deals with technology, humanity hasn't a clue what it's doing and the machines are undeniably in charge. Humanity is really none-the-wiser though. They just fought a war and won. They are too tired to realize what's happened.

As time passes, and humanities problems start to stack up, the AIs become a little bolder and start expressing themselves. Suddenly the Land Raider Mk 1 that worked yesterday doesn't want to start up unless you are nice to it. The mechadendrites strapped to your back think it's hilarious to knock things over, independent of your thoughts. More time passes and suddenly these AIs expressing themselves is a godddamn mystery...and worse, any and all information about how these things work was lost long ago. So all humanity knows is the machines are acting like jerks and they are terrified to even touch them. That's when suddenly everyone gets the bright idea to just suck it up and be nice to the machines. Guys in red robes are swinging incense and chanting prayers just to get their Caff makers to work every morning. Meanwhile, the machines are laughing their asses off.

And just like any other sentient being, the AIs....which are now called 'spirits" because everyone thinks it's friggin ghosts....all have unique personalities. Tevan's maglev chair absolutely loses it's mind whenever he watches reruns of "Law and Order: Ordos", but yours laps that stuff up and actually engages it massage feature automatically when it hears the weird theme song. And warmachines dude, warmachines have seen some stuff. The titans, being older than dirt, have seen their "friends" die and other machines torn up by men and women with axes and guns. Addtionally, controlling all those parts has really driven them a little over the edge....and worse, occasionally some jerkoff tries to link up with them...and did I mention he's a jerk? It's a small wonder titans are even loyalists.

So yeah, I've always understood it that the "machine spirits" are just the AIs that were intelligent enough to get the hell out Dodge during the war in the DAoT and decided it was better to be a jerk for 15,000 years than die in yoru android body.

ThePrimordial wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
A machine spirit is simply the term used by the backwards, superstitious, religious, machine-worshipping technomancer cults of the 41st millenium to describe something more mundane - Artificial Intelligence, also known as "AI". There is no actual soul or spirit involved here. And before someone tries the "but Machine Spirits can be corrupted by the warp!!!!" ever hear of a computer virus? It wouldn't be the first time the forces of chaos created a "technovirus" by any means...

Regarding the "personalities" aspect, its basically the concept of an aberrant AI (I think thats the term), an old artificial intelligence construct that has, over time, had its hardware degrade (which is also the reason why after some time that lightning fast computer is suddenly slow as gak despite the fact that you are running the same software as you were when you bought it) and there are now "quirks" exhibited as a result of this, such as incompatibility issues with certain users (it makes more sense when you realize a titan crew is plugged in like a piece of hardware) or "malfunctions" such as suddenly discharging a weapon (at a rather convenient time no less) as a result of a crossed wire.

This isn't true obviously due to the Castigator which must have had a physical soul due to becoming a daemon.
Plus all that might be required to have a soul in 40k (emotions, sapience) , intelligent AI's already possess.
40k works very differently because emotions feed the warp and intelligent AI's have emotions which mean AI's are capable of possessing souls.

It didn't "become" a daemon, it was possessed by a daemon, and as stated prior, the warp is apparrently capable of spawning "technoviruses" (see obliterators for a rather over the top example). By your logic, Iranian computers have souls because STUXNET was a daemon and made them do crazy gak.

The AI of the castigator wasn't possessed. The AI itself became a daemon. Exact wording. That s*it actually happened.

If by "actually happened" you mean it happened in a non-canon (as all Black Library books are) book set in a grim dark future that won't happen for another 38 millenia, yeah. Also, can you source that "exact wording" because I don't remember it saying that it "became a daemon". I remember lots of discussion however of it being a corrupt STC.

Nothing mortal, or even physical, can "become" a daemon, anymore than a Guardsman can "become" a Leman-Russ tank. A daemon is an intelligent creature that is native to the Immaterium. A Titan is not.

Except for daemon princes (Except even those are stated to not be "true" daemons).

If a normal man is in Khorne's domain and successfully beats up a bloodletter & impresses Khorne he can become a daemon. Regardless of interpretation you're wrong due to the presence of Daemon Princes which are still powerful daemons.

Except daemon princes are, again, stated to not be true daemons.

[

ROFL.

Daemon Princes are neither mortals nor daemons, but a transmogrification into an immortal hybrid of both.

Owned.

Nope they're daemons and are every bit as immortal as regular daemons, w/ the same absurdly long names, requirement of a vessel, and rules for banishing. THEY ARE DAEMONS. They just have a bit more leniency when trying to appear in the materium. Stop derailing the thread!!! I feel bad for feeding this derailment of my own thread with an undeniably interesting fluff question.

LOL NO!

See above, also this:

Read the thread before you post bro, that should be a rule, its clear you haven't because all these points have been made and not disputed by anyone else.

I remember at least one comic, where the machine spirit of a ship had to be awakened using adrenaline. Then again it was allready mentioned how GW treats canon.


Also, in a world were the use of servitors is pretty frequent, it isn't hard to imagine that something similiar is used to power other technology.


Also, most imperial tech originates on Mars, the place were the void dragon is imprisoned... a being which allegedly has powers beyond the physical, which aren't powered by the imaterium. Just to add a crackpot theory. ^^

chaos0xomega wrote:

ThePrimordial wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
A machine spirit is simply the term used by the backwards, superstitious, religious, machine-worshipping technomancer cults of the 41st millenium to describe something more mundane - Artificial Intelligence, also known as "AI". There is no actual soul or spirit involved here. And before someone tries the "but Machine Spirits can be corrupted by the warp!!!!" ever hear of a computer virus? It wouldn't be the first time the forces of chaos created a "technovirus" by any means...

Regarding the "personalities" aspect, its basically the concept of an aberrant AI (I think thats the term), an old artificial intelligence construct that has, over time, had its hardware degrade (which is also the reason why after some time that lightning fast computer is suddenly slow as gak despite the fact that you are running the same software as you were when you bought it) and there are now "quirks" exhibited as a result of this, such as incompatibility issues with certain users (it makes more sense when you realize a titan crew is plugged in like a piece of hardware) or "malfunctions" such as suddenly discharging a weapon (at a rather convenient time no less) as a result of a crossed wire.

This isn't true obviously due to the Castigator which must have had a physical soul due to becoming a daemon.
Plus all that might be required to have a soul in 40k (emotions, sapience) , intelligent AI's already possess.
40k works very differently because emotions feed the warp and intelligent AI's have emotions which mean AI's are capable of possessing souls.

It didn't "become" a daemon, it was possessed by a daemon, and as stated prior, the warp is apparrently capable of spawning "technoviruses" (see obliterators for a rather over the top example). By your logic, Iranian computers have souls because STUXNET was a daemon and made them do crazy gak.

The AI of the castigator wasn't possessed. The AI itself became a daemon. Exact wording. That s*it actually happened.

If by "actually happened" you mean it happened in a non-canon (as all Black Library books are) book set in a grim dark future that won't happen for another 38 millenia, yeah. Also, can you source that "exact wording" because I don't remember it saying that it "became a daemon". I remember lots of discussion however of it being a corrupt STC.

Nothing mortal, or even physical, can "become" a daemon, anymore than a Guardsman can "become" a Leman-Russ tank. A daemon is an intelligent creature that is native to the Immaterium. A Titan is not.

Except for daemon princes (Except even those are stated to not be "true" daemons).

If a normal man is in Khorne's domain and successfully beats up a bloodletter & impresses Khorne he can become a daemon. Regardless of interpretation you're wrong due to the presence of Daemon Princes which are still powerful daemons.

Except daemon princes are, again, stated to not be true daemons.

[

ROFL.

Daemon Princes are neither mortals nor daemons, but a transmogrification into an immortal hybrid of both.

Owned.

Nope they're daemons and are every bit as immortal as regular daemons, w/ the same absurdly long names, requirement of a vessel, and rules for banishing. THEY ARE DAEMONS. They just have a bit more leniency when trying to appear in the materium. Stop derailing the thread!!! I feel bad for feeding this derailment of my own thread with an undeniably interesting fluff question.

LOL NO!

See above, also this:

Read the thread before you post bro, that should be a rule, its clear you haven't because all these points have been made and not disputed by anyone else.

When LOL NO is the response to refuting evidence you shouldn't be refuting said evidence.

People seem to have problems in suspending their disbelief in certain areas and this is but one case where all kinds of explanations arise just to justify it. I find it hilarious that people actually need a detailed explanation on how things in sci-fi works. Due to that, science and technology are tried to be explained in ours very limited understanding of it. Even if we would get a professional scientists, their tries to deny possibilities of warhammer technology would be futile. First of all, our understanding of universe is still very limited. Second, there is no telling on how innovative their technology is and that unknown methods and materials are used. Third, we still need to discover more dimensions. We have no idea that warp is and how it behaves. It's very possible that in age of strife, rules of material universe (physic, chemistry and etc) have been slightly changed due to massive amounts of ethereal energy being unleashed on it. There is a possibility that in that universe, our science would be slightly inaccurate overall or in some places, completely wrong.


Machine spirit fits in w40k universe quite well. It's like orks technology, completely separate technology tree, based on psychic powers and questionable technology. Their understanding of science and technology are so different that their technology is simply beyond understanding of all, but most advanced races like Eldars. Machine spirit would surely be of great help in explaining a lot of things in warhammer's lore. Like why human technology tend to persists working despite extreme damage it's suffering. Why Eisenhorn's bolt pistol only jammed then it was targeted at his head, despite working flawlessly for decades. Why in "battle of the fang", space wolve's scout ship continued on working despite being in constant burning state for at least weeks. It would explain why it persisted on his mission despite having its hull mostly destroyed and how it managed to keep on working until very last, theoretical possible second. Machine spirit would explain why resistance movement rank tech-priest avoided machines with stronger spirits and possessed only weak ones (Dark mechanicus). It would explain why titans have personalities, why ships have conversations with its captains or even crews. Machine spirit would explain a lot in Imperium's lore and to flat-out state that its just mere superstition would directly oppose many incidents. Incidents which would be very well explain by admitting that mechanicus technology are different from ours. That tech-priest understanding of it creates machine spirits naturally. That adeptus mechanicus way of creating machinery is as far removed from Tau's technology as is from Orks or Eldar technology.

If you mean the time Eisenhorn got mind-controlled by the alpha-plus psyker and shot that White Consuls Space Marine in the face, his pistol failed to fire because Lord Inquisitor Vorkan had seized its machinery with telekinetic forces. That lasted long enough for Gregor to not shoot himself with it.

 Psienesis wrote:
If you mean the time Eisenhorn got mind-controlled by the alpha-plus psyker and shot that White Consuls Space Marine in the face, his pistol failed to fire because Lord Inquisitor Vorkan had seized its machinery with telekinetic forces. That lasted long enough for Gregor to not shoot himself with it.

That example exactly. It was described like this?

Hmmm, I think that my mind is particularly susceptible to twisting its memories. I already observe this phenomena with certain, unpleasant things which are being hidden away in depths of my memory. I know that I know something unpleasant about something, but it's simply lost to me and meditation-like state is required to access it. Mostly, just very blurred view and instinct are left. This example might be of different nature. It's most likely that my imagination wasn't fast enough to portray another action that I had read and only that was visualized stayed in my memory.

Yeah, Voke (not Vorkan, I knew something didn't look right there) basically pops up from nowhere and does his telekine thing, freezes the weapon in a block of psychic ice, and Eisenhorn manages to pull it away from his head before Voke loses control of the power and the weapon discharges.

chaos0xomega wrote:
A machine spirit is simply the term used by the backwards, superstitious, religious, machine-worshipping technomancer cults of the 41st millenium to describe something more mundane - Artificial Intelligence, also known as "AI". There is no actual soul or spirit involved here. And before someone tries the "but Machine Spirits can be corrupted by the warp!!!!" ever hear of a computer virus? It wouldn't be the first time the forces of chaos created a "technovirus" by any means...

Regarding the "personalities" aspect, its basically the concept of an aberrant AI (I think thats the term), an old artificial intelligence construct that has, over time, had its hardware degrade (which is also the reason why after some time that lightning fast computer is suddenly slow as gak despite the fact that you are running the same software as you were when you bought it) and there are now "quirks" exhibited as a result of this, such as incompatibility issues with certain users (it makes more sense when you realize a titan crew is plugged in like a piece of hardware) or "malfunctions" such as suddenly discharging a weapon (at a rather convenient time no less) as a result of a crossed wire.

This right here.

It is also reasonable to assume that since Chaos can warp and change physical objects (along with sentient creatures) it could also change and warp the program of the AI. Such things would be interpreted by the Imperium as possession. And of course, if an AI was sentient, then I see no reason a warp entity couldn't use that sentient AI as a gateway into the material realm, just like with an organic sentient being.

Regarding maintenance of machine spirits (and all technology in general), there is a lot of ritual involved. A person of the 41st Millennium would perhaps burn incense and chant prayers while maintaining a piece of equipment, but along with those prayers they would also be doing other more vital maintenance. The ritual aspect is not necessary, but they wouldn't know it. They would practice the maintenance rituals and their gear would continue to work, and they would attribute their success as much to the prayer as they would the replacement of broken components.

In fact, the ritual element may provide an easy way to remember what they are suppose to do. A person who practices these rituals may be more confident if their ability to maintain their equipment and so they less likely to screw something up. Over the centuries though, perhaps more esoteric and unrelated motions get introduced.

Ernestas wrote:People seem to have problems in suspending their disbelief in certain areas and this is but one case where all kinds of explanations arise just to justify it. [...] Machine spirit fits in w40k universe quite well. It's like orks technology, completely separate technology tree, based on psychic powers and questionable technology.

See, here's where I just can't agree. In my opinion, the Machine Spirit (as superstition) fits into 40k quite well because of GW's penchant to take strange things from actual human history and dial them up to eleven. Where some people seem to look at the fluff and actually take it at face value, I see thinly veiled black humour walking the thin line between "grimdark" and "ridiculous".

But as I said earlier, it's all a matter of interpretation, and if anyone wants to believe that stuff like some Primarch actually carrying a mountain range on his back because that's how it was recorded by the natives of his Legion's homeworld, that's their choice too. Because there is a difference between "suspension of disbelief" and blindly swallowing every word from texts whose purpose is to poke fun at RL humanity whilst telling a story. You can come to a consistent setting with both approaches - it just won't be the same one.

A 'Machine Sprit' is an idea; namely that machines possess a sprit (or warp reflection, or whatever_ like living creature does. It is an idea promulgated by the Adeptus Mechanius as part of their religion and is a part of the whole 'technology is sacred' shtick they have going on. There is even some 'evidence' of this in the various materials attached to the setting.

By my understanding of the fluff there are several possible things going on here. When someone 'in-setting' attributes something to a machine sprit it could one of the following things:

1 - Superstitious anthropomorphisation: A owner of a bolt gun may talk about the 'sprit' of the weapon and it's personality, but all they are really doing is ascribing a humanity to the device's natural qualities (like heft or reliability) and quirks (like a habit of the trigger sticking after being fired on auto for a while). We sorta do this in our own world; talking about a boat as a 'she' or a car as 'temperamental'.

2 - Computers: Advanced, complicated technology (such as a land-raider or Titan) may have actual 'systems' (maybe even with biological components), that give them a certain autonomy, and a semblance of intelligence or awareness. They may even be labelled 'machine sprit'. While not actually True AI, they come close enough to make people think that they 'think', without violating the edict against True AI.

3 - Warp Reflection Personification: In-setting there is an established idea that the beliefs and emotions of living things can, particularly when doing it en-mass, affect the warp and create warp-entities. If that belief, fervour and emotional intensity were focused on a machine for long enough, or with enough force, or by enough people, I would say it would be possible that that machine would gain or manifest a 'reflection' in the warp that would be, for all intents and purposes, a sprit.

Personally I'd reserve the last one for large, well know, pieces of technology that have had a long history interacting with lots and lots of people (such as a Starship or Titan). That said, if that effect was occurring, I would not rule out weaker versions of it (such as for famous, relics, weapons, or vehicles).

Well, religion of mechanicus is partly a tool for their elite to keep their power and influence and it's partly representation of their believes. Mechanicus, despite a popular believe, still are doing research and advancing its knowledge and introducing new weaponary into Imperial use. Sadly, organisation have become a very much political unit where politics and inner power competition have become quite common. It's funny how humanity's second golden age of technology is withhold by adeptus mechanicus by a simple believe that human's worth consists of only knowledge he contains. They enforce that belief pretty brutally to a point that only people able to do some research is mechanicus magos or higher rank priests.


Lynata, that's my concern exactly. People want their w30k to be like dragon ball Z and in a same time, they find it difficult to believe that humanity's technology can be different from that we a familiar with today. Even more, no one seems to be bothered that orks technology utilizes even more ridiculous concepts on far larger scale.

There will be no Second Golden Age of the Imperium in the timeline conceivable for the game. Humanity has lost, not forgotten, lost, irrevocably lost, the knowledge and science that would be required to have another Golden Age.

It is not that the AdMech holds humanity back from being great, what the AdMech holds humanity back from is sliding into another Stone Age.

I'm pretty sure there is a line in one of the official canon sources (I.E. rulebook) about how the Mechanicum loses the ability to produce certain technologies, etc. on a daily basis, so the idea that the Mechanicum are conducting research and producing new technologies doesn't really seem to work given the statement to the contrary... Unless by producing "new stuff" you mean they rediscover "old stuff" every once in a while...

They do sometimes manage to reverse-engineer Xeno technology to produce something for the Imperium. This is how the DeathWatch and other groups get things like Haywire grenades.

ETA: Also the fact that they make "continuous" (every few centuries or so) improvements to Power Armor. I mean, the fact that they can build an armored corset and thigh-high heeled boots that grants a woman as much protection as a Space Marine has gotta count for something, right?

The problem is that books portray mechanicus differently. There they are more fleshed out and painted at more realistic colors than dry GW's dictations of lore. For example, now I read Eisenhorn's novels and there is is a very interesting part about Bure. It's said that he is doing research and mechanicus recognises his achievements. Also, he had managed to replicate lost artifact, Barbarisater and to make some alterations to a weapon. Such stories of competence are typical in all books with them in it. At least in books that I have read.

As for a machine spirit, here is a typical, direct quote from how it feels to interact with adeptus mechanicus high-tech:

'Barbarisater was an extraordinary piece. I came to know it and it came to know me. Within a week, it was responding to my will, channeling it so hard that the rune marks glowed with manifesting psychic power, It had a will of its own, and once it was in my hands, ready, swinging, it was difficult to stop it it pulling and slicing where it pleased. It hungered for blood..or if not blood, then at least the joy of battle. On two separate occasions, Medea came into the hold to see if I was bored enough for another round of regicide, and I had to restrain the steek from lunging at her.
Its sheer length was a problem: I had never used a blade so long. I worried that I would do my own extremities harm. But practice gave me the gift of it: long-armed, flowing moves, sweeping strokes, a tight field of severing. Withing a fortnight, I had mastered the knack of spinning it over my hand, my open palm and the pommel circling around each other like the discs of a gyroscope. I was proud of that move. I think Barbarisater taught it to me.

His descriptions of his blade fits a possessed item. If a weapon can be described equally as a possessed one, then that means that machine spirit's effects are similar to a deamonic possession in some way, hence, it have its personality and with it, it's enchanting piece of equipment in a similar way as a deamonic possession does. Even more, machine spirit fights its intruders like a deamon does. So, if it looks like a spirit maybe it's a spirit?

I'm pretty sure a sword doesn't have a Machine Spirit, since it's not a machine, it's just a sharp bit of metal with no moving parts... though it could, I suppose, possess the even-less-defined "War Spirit".

This particular weapon, if memory serves, was a power-saber (though his description of it makes me envision a katana). I think, more to the point with that scene, that since he is an actual psyker (and a telepath to boot) using this ancient relic of a weapon that had been handed down through the Ewl Wyra Scryri practitioners for generations awakens some sort of "inherited memory" that's been imprinted on the device by the many warriors who have carried it over the years.

That's just my interpretation of it, though.

 Pendix wrote:
A 'Machine Sprit' is an idea; namely that machines possess a sprit.

1 - Superstitious anthropomorphisation:

And that's probably where the idea for GWs machine spirits originate. I'm sure quite a few of us have dealt with a machine that seems to mess with us out of spite... PC shutting down, car not starting, chainsaw overheating for no reason the owner can think of (it's a cheap one with plastic instead of much that should be metal).

GorillaWarfare wrote:

Regarding maintenance of machine spirits (and all technology in general), there is a lot of ritual involved. A person of the 41st Millennium would perhaps burn incense and chant prayers while maintaining a piece of equipment, but along with those prayers they would also be doing other more vital maintenance. The ritual aspect is not necessary, but they wouldn't know it. They would practice the maintenance rituals and their gear would continue to work, and they would attribute their success as much to the prayer as they would the replacement of broken components.

In fact, the ritual element may provide an easy way to remember what they are suppose to do. A person who practices these rituals may be more confident if their ability to maintain their equipment and so they less likely to screw something up. Over the centuries though, perhaps more esoteric and unrelated motions get introduced.

Before I continue, I should point out that many Chaos items become possessed, things that don't have souls. Daemons can infest a piece of armour and possess individual components, manifesting as a leering daemonic face on a shoulderpad or a series of bony spikes along the back of a power axe.

This is pretty much what I think, too. My interpretation is that the machine-spirit refers to a number of things, all things that must be 'appeased'.

The first of these is the same as others in this thread have mentioned, a superstitious thing granted to individual items to explain "quirks" and so on. For example, a Commissar's bolt pistol jams. Due to the low level of technological understanding, the Commissar assumes he has angered the machine-spirit somehow, not that a round has been incorrectly loaded or anything. He therefore performs "the Litany of Operation" or something. In his mind, this is to appease the bolt pistol's machine-spirit so that it will work again. During the litany he offers long prayers, disassembles the gun and offers a prayer to each piece before and after cleaning it, and then reassembles the weapon, offers one final prayer, and it fires! He believes he has appeased the machine-spirit of the weapon, when in reality he has simply fixed the issue.

The second is computers. A Predator's auto-targeting system, for example. It is simply a computer, but the belief is that it is capable of true thought as it is a spirit in the machine. This machine-spirit will smite the foes of the Emperor and is worth much praise and respect. Although the Predator's only computer-controlled function may be its automatic targeting, the trait of having a machine-spirit will be cited as the reason for any and all quirks that the vehicle may have; a fault in the tracks, perhaps, causing it to drift to the left when the driver attempts to go forwards. Perhaps, as mentioned previously in the thread, the auto-targeting function would not allow weapon operators to fire upon friendly forces; this would be attributed to the machine-spirit's allegiance to the Emperor or something. A Chaos Predator wouldn't just be simply 'reprogrammed', the vehicle itself would be committing heresy by firing upon the Emperor's finest as much as the Chaos Marines operating it would be.

The third and final is artificial intelligence of varying degrees. For example, that famous Land Raider that carried on pilotlessly for a while. This machine-spirit would have been a sort of autopilot, capable of foe recognition and destruction. While not a true AI, it is an intelligence. Something closer to a true AI may not only be present in a Titan but absolutely necessary for its function. The Princeps and crew may operate the machine, but what handles the countless subtle processes that must occur with every action? Perhaps there is a "machine-spirit" present to interpret the inputs given by the crew.

While it is entirely possible for a Bolter to become possessed and spout legs and arms, it is much more favourable for a daemon to possess a vehicle, a physical body through which it can move in the Materium (different to a Daemon Engine), just like daemons can possess people.

An interesting extension of this idea comes about when considering Dreadnoughts. Would a failure in the systems of a Dreadnought (any that can't be obviously attributed to damage, they're not that stupid) be blamed on the 'pilot'? Do Dreadnought operators count as the "machine spirit", and thus any faults associated with machine-spirit anger would be blamed on a lack of faith or something?

 Psienesis wrote:
I'm pretty sure a sword doesn't have a Machine Spirit, since it's not a machine, it's just a sharp bit of metal with no moving parts... though it could, I suppose, possess the even-less-defined "War Spirit".

This particular weapon, if memory serves, was a power-saber (though his description of it makes me envision a katana). I think, more to the point with that scene, that since he is an actual psyker (and a telepath to boot) using this ancient relic of a weapon that had been handed down through the Ewl Wyra Scryri practitioners for generations awakens some sort of "inherited memory" that's been imprinted on the device by the many warriors who have carried it over the years.

That's just my interpretation of it, though.

I will try to back up my claims in parts due to lack of time and potential new wall of text.


First of all, I want to make sure you understand that deamons or they equivalents, machine spirits do not have to have consciousness. Deamons that are able to interact are already quite advanced in hierarchy amongst other deamons. Even though, they still can influence mortals or equipment in question, but not on conscious level. If needed, I could dig through my copy of ''Liber chaotica" for quotes.

Second, in a book it's vaguely mentioned. I reread that part and there was no support of either part of argument: is weapon was remade or not. I think that author left a plot hole there. By arguing with a common sense I would say that Eisenhorn didn't had a weapon back then and it was reforged by a warpsmith. Weapon was lost on Cadia during his arrest. I mean, if you are going to fight potential deamonhosts you will surely are going to take your most potent weapons. Even more, I find it hard to imagine that sword just siting in his HQ doing nothing while ours Inquisitor risks his life constantly. Due to that, there could be no possibility of that artifact being just given back to his staff (Knowing Imperium,they were extremely lucky to not get same treatment as he did) and his escape wasn't planned to such lengths as to reclaim his sword from someones armory. Even more, Eisenhorn doesn't mentions that sword was given back to his original owners, meaning that Inquisition have kept this weapon for themselves.
Sadly, recreation theory is hardly viable due to difficulty in creating such weapons even though, text strangely is neutral in this question. Again, I believe that author left a plot hole in this little area.
Also, lexicanum states that weapon was upgraded, take it for that you will. In addition, keep in mind that author most likely wrote about rune staff's creation.



So, how do you imagine ''inherited memory"? Isn't that a spirit of some sort? Isn't that a minor deamon that I was talking before? I think that you might be imagining this matter wrong. I do not say that an adeptus mechanicus crafted toaster will have its machine spirit which would require appeasement. I say that mechanicus creates something extra with its technology. Something unique which creates its spirits in realistic way. I mean, you did noticed many examples of machine spirit in action and you can say for sure that it had its own personal character. Do you think that a simple computer, a simple computer code would be able to have such complex bugs that would create a personality like a sub-product?

I will try to expand on this in a future in more detail.


Here are some examples of how possessed weapons can interact with its wielder or to enchant weapon's potency:

Willingly you picked me up. Your first mistake. Willingly you drew me. Your second mistake. I do not allow my servants to make three mistakes, foolish mortal...
A Daemon Weapon

The Berserker Glaive contains the bound essence of a Bloodletter, which has been driven truly insane by its captivity, forcing the bearer to constantly fight with it to remain in control. The Glaive transfers this rage to the wielder, who is automatically gripped with "blood frenzy," granting them great strength and resilience. However the weapon has no concern over whose life is taken, including any allies and even the wielders themselves, as long as the blood flows in the name of Khorne.

Hellblades are swords wielded by Bloodletters. These are great two-handed weapons given to them by Khorne, each said to be possessed by an angry daemon. They are powerful warp-forged blades of wicked sharpness that no mortal-made armor can withstand. Legend says the core of each Hellblade is formed of the souls of raging daemons and that pure hatred sharpens their edges. Over the millennia countless foes have had their wills broken by the carnage wrought by these evil weapons.

The Dark Blade is jet black and contains no other marks to blemish its surface. The blade has a perfect darkness although the hilt, pommel and grip are often adorned. The blade feeds on the souls of its enemies and uses this power to force the bearer on to greater acts of savagery in order to sate its appetite.

The Dreadaxe is a Daemon Weapon. It contains a vampiric being with a thirst for the souls of other Daemons. It is almost inevitable that anyone who opposes this weapon will die quickly. They usually take the form of a highly decorated double-bladed axe.

Warpswords are titanic Daemon Weapons used by Soul Grinders of Chaos. These ever-shifting blades are the physical manifestation of an imprisoned Daemon's hatred at being trapped within the machine-body of a Soul Grinder

Being a daemon weapon, Drach'nyen could be considered a living being and its appearance can change dramatically.

The mighty daemon weapon draws its prodigious power from the bound essence of a writhing warp entity that can rend reality apart, named Drach'nyen.[2] The Warmaster uses this weapon as a symbol of his authority, and with it has led his infamous Black Crusades, as well as using it to effect in battle.

The Silver Blade of Laer was a weapon recovered by Fulgrim, Primarch of the Emperor's Children in the aftermath of the Cleansing of Laeran.[1a] Unbeknownst to the Primarch however, it held the essence of a powerful Daemon of Slaanesh which would eventually overpower and possess Fulgrim during the Drop Site Massacre.[1b] After taking control of Fulgrim's body, the Daemon later gave the Silver Blade to Lucius, sensing great potential in the Captain.

As you can see, deamonic possession is in a way similar to machine spirit's actions. It can toy with its crews, it can threaten to overtake control of its machinery and even it can possess its users! Due to all of that, If you want to write off machine spirit as superstition, I suggest you do that too and to deamonic possession of equipment and weaponary.



Btw: last quotes of Barbarisater description:

Barbarisater felt him move before I did. It lurched in my hands. In the time it takes to draw a breath, we had exchanged a flurry of twenty of twenty or more blows.

I saw my moment. Barbarisater saw it too.

All of these quotes further proves that this weapon is possessed by a machine spirit.

All you did was cite evidence that Daemon Weapons have daemons in them. Meanwhile, don't take every line in a Black Library book to be 100% canon, because they are often contradictory. Authors are given quite a bit of artistic freedom, which is why canon is so obscure.

While there are other kinds of entities (C'tan, for example), any supernatural 'spirit' that could literally possess a weapon would be daemonic in origin. Bear in mind that Avatars of Khaine are still daemons. If Barbarisater is truly intelligent - and the anthropomorphism of the weapon was not simply prosaic - then it is possessed by a daemon or is warp-touched, unless it has some sort of bizarre AI in it for some reason.

I don't quite understand why you put up so many references/quotations to sentient daemon weapons. There are other supernatural weapons that are not sentient daemon weapons (tainted bolters that spew brazen bolts of fire, perhaps) - but it's all Warp-related. Implying that a machine-spirit is in fact a wholly unique entity unrelated to the Warp leads to the question; what is it, then, and why does it rest within machines? Such a question would require a whole new metaphysic. For example, saying that such things exist due to a Waaagh!-esque gestalt psychic field of humanity would have massive implications (meanwhile the Waaagh! is still Warp-related)!

EDIT: If one were to describe the jagged spikes jutting from a Battlewagon as "wicked" or "cruel", they would not be proving that the spikes are intelligent and actually capable of those feelings. If it were a Daemon Weapon keen on forcing its wielder to inflict pain and misery, it could be described as literally cruel. Perhaps a Daemon Weapon could be a completely reasonable and easy-going entity, but its physical form still has a "wicked blade". That does not prove that the entity is itself wicked. Eisenhorn could attribute his combat instinct to the blade's personality. Or perhaps his psyker abilities are granting him or the blade some form of supernatural prescience. Whatever the case, the blade cannot have its own intelligence unless daemon-infested, making it heretical. A machine-spirit is not "equivalent" to a daemon in any sense other than the "Power of the Machine-Spirit" and "Daemonic Possession" counterpart rules in the tabletop.

 Lynata wrote:

ThePrimordial wrote:Thoughts?

I'm thinking that you will see a lot of different ideas and interpretations all depending on where you do your reading.

To me, in almost all cases the "Machine Spirit" is simply superstition. Today's people's affinity to cursing or begging their computer, their car, or their TV when it does not work, dialed up to eleven and turned into a state religion for a dystopian future. More advanced technology in the setting, however, may actually have a "Machine Spirit" in a slightly truer sense, where a machine actually is capable of learning and self-governance - not due to some supernatural phenomenon, but simply due to the components used in its construction. When GW released a cross-section of a Land Raider, for example, there was a label "Machine Spirit" with an arrow to something that looked very much like a human brain in a jar wired into the vehicle's electronics.
It could be the Mechanicus' way to circumvent the AI ban, you know. After all, brains aren't artificial ...

Needless to say, however, you won't find something like this in, say, a lasgun or a voxcaster.

And of course this is just one of many possibilities, all of whom are equally valid.

Pretty much. "Machine Spirits" are a mixture of superstitious anthropomorphizing and denial of reality("it's not an AI, honest guv!"). Just as the various rituals of activation and maintenance performed by Techpriests are part rote-learned technical manual, (much bigger)part superstition.

Frozen Ocean, that was exactly my point. I wanted to show you all that deamonic possession can be extremely similar to machine spirit's workings. I do understand that Black Library cannot be completely trusted as viable source of cannon, but I think that's fine source of reference (thats why I quoted so much. I wanted to show consistency). Even more, if there is consistency between authors about certain things in warhammer's universe which fits in it well, then I consider Black library lore to overwrite fluff written by GW.

Barbarisater is unique anthropomorphism in Eisenhorn's novels. Author didn't personified anything else and due to that, I think that this reference is viable quote from fluff showing that machine spirits are real. I would like to receive counter quotes from fluff showing that machine spirit is just a superstition.

Keep in mind that I didn't wrote everything that I wanted to say. Then I will have enough time I will try to comment on other people ideas and possibilities. Now, I just want to reduce amount of that I will need to write about in a future, due to that, I try to keep my discussion as small as I can.


Another important thing is to understand that I'm not saying that adeptus mechanicus is right. I don't think that in every piece of technology has its machine spirit. I say that there is a tendency between complexity of machine and strength of its machine spirit. Also, I claim that humanity are a psychic race and it's impossible for them to worship nothing. As orks, if they believe that there is something supernatural, in time there will be a supernatural thing. Hence, some equipment gain its spirits due to a simple believe.
Also, it's my main theory of Barbarisater's machine spirit's origin. Long time of servitude and especially possible long history with psykers created a spirit. That spirit gained its character from emotions that was used in its creation. More, I think that in time this spirit will reach a level of consciousness. It might be in a battlefield there emotional energies runs rampant or even simple and long servitude for potent psyker would be enough to push this spirit to its evolution


I agree with you, deamonic possession can mimic workings of simple machinery. Even though, we must agree that same thing done by science isn't similar in its nature. Even more, I think that you will agree with me that mortals are excellent judges of deamonic and artificial things, hence, simple ''feeling'' is a viable argument to back up claims of supernatural existence.


Imperium is built on a lie. Even more, Imperium applies double standards to a lot of things. For example, they claim to be intolerant to any nature of warp entities and their manifestation. On the other hand, they openly worship deamons and do not hide that fact. Saints are prime example of that. And that's the difference between these two? Just allegiances. "Sanctioned" deamons simply are born from different kind of emotions or those emotions plays secondary role. Due to that, Imperium's deamons are more subtle. They do not need to force mortals into noticeable activities as human sacrifices. No, Saints thrive on religion. Humans do not need any kind of motivation to worship them, just mere proof that their faith is true will drive them into fanatical worship and draw even more of them to being a true members of Imperial creed. Think that would happen in real life if there would be sightings of angels. Not in ridiculous "UFO sightings" levels, but true encounters with them there would be plenty of witnesses with solid quality footage. It's similar matter and with machine spirits. Deamons in their very nature will try to encourage certain emotions which had made them. A machine does not need something spectacular. If it's born from believe then all its need to do is just to be noticed by its crew. Also, emotions which made it will define its character. Due to people believe that machine spirit is bound to certain machine will make machine spirits non-invasive and ''passive''.

Yodhrin wrote:the various rituals of activation and maintenance performed by Techpriests

"... then, after having finished sprinkling the sacred machine's metal skin with a sheet of blessed unguents you shalt strike the holy assemblage not once, not thrice, but exactly two times with a hydrospanner of a mark according to the machine's size (note that the use of any tools not sanctioned by an official of the Cult Mechanicus will anger its spirit and is thus discouraged on pain of servitor-recyclement) whilst simultaneously chanting the Rite of Activation. If thine incantation has been successful, the machine's spirit will then answer your prayers by diverting power through the auxiliary relay, provided you have pushed the sacred rune with the icons O and N into the socket earlier."

 Ernestas wrote:
I would like to receive counter quotes from fluff showing that machine spirit is just a superstition.

Except you never will, because everything is written from an in-character perspective? No Imperial Guardsman is going to talk about (or understand) the specifics of quantum physics, but it doesn't mean that quantum physics suddenly doesn't apply when Imperial Guardsmen are involved. If I were to write a story from the perspective of very small children, they wouldn't be thinking about applied thermodynamics. They might think that the sun is a giant lollipop. Relying entirely on quotes from the source material (a series of novels written entirely from the perspective of very small children) would 'prove' that the sun is, in fact, a giant lollipop. There is no outside source - there is no tech-priest character saying "Ah, machine-spirits are all superstition and this is why".

Saints are not daemons any more than Tyranids imbued with Feel No Pain from a Tervigon are daemons. Saints are mortals empowered by the psychic energies of the Emperor. Yes, that makes them Warp-related, but it does not make them daemons. The Imperium does not see The Emperor as merely a psyker. They believe that his power is divine, something wholly separate from The Warp. It is not, but to think so would be heresy.