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No, I don't think his shooting is the problem.
Correct me if I am wrong, but he only has two weapons, right?

My main problem is the 2+, should have been 3+ or even 4+ (you know, like all other MC's have!)

The MC-Walker-distinction possibly comes from the dexterity of the unit.

A sentinel and a war-walker are both vehicles that are piloted mechanically. Not an extension of the pilot like Riptides and Wraithknights. So in essence, they are just upscaled infantry, whereas a sentinel is still a pilot trying to maneuver a hunk of metal with analogue controls.

Lumipon wrote:
The MC-Walker-distinction possibly comes from the dexterity of the unit.

A sentinel and a war-walker are both vehicles that are piloted mechanically. Not an extension of the pilot like Riptides and Wraithknights. So in essence, they are just upscaled infantry, whereas a sentinel is still a pilot trying to maneuver a hunk of metal with analogue controls.

Why are Dreadnoughts and Soul Grinders walkers then?

They are walkers because they have always been walkers (in the dread's case) if the Dread was going to become a MC its points would increase by ~50%, it would get the same stats as a Wraithlord but with a 2+ save. if the points didnt change... well Blood angels would come back into the scene with RAWR MC dread SPAM.

now the soulgrinder i have no idea about, when I first saw it I thought it was a MC but apparently its a vehicle. same goes with the Fiends in the CSM codex, thought they where MCs then saw the stats.. wtf GW.

What if the Riptide was just a large Jet pack unit with no MC, okay it loses fear, HOW, MTC, and smash. no real change there still deadly at range, not so effective in melee but eh if a dedicated melee unit gets into a tumble with the Riptide guess which one is going to die?

Back to the Op's Question.
if the stats were good, People would take the riptide as a walker.

I think the soul grinder was their attempt to put in something immune to Small arms in the Daemon Codex.

Of course, as many people have already said, Riptides as MC's would be much more popular than as a walker.
The key reasons being that MC's are far better in 6th edition.
Lots of points have already been said, but another one which hasn't yet is MC's in cc.

MC's are more effective than a non dedicated cc walker. If we take a dreadnought with 2 autocannons, then it will allow armour saves in melee. The riptide wont.

MC's also gain the option to 'smash', allowing an a riptide to kick a landraider to death.

str 6 hammer of wrath is a little icing on the cake too.

The solution needs to be weapons that are designed to kill MCs. Beast killer shells from the IG vanquisher for example. S8 AP2 ID. Even if you dont add ID, adding rerolls to wound on more weapons should help tone down the MC spam that is becoming popular. Each army should have some method to deal with MC and some method to deal with fliers. No army should be required to ally to create a TAC list. However, GW disagrees with this.

simple reason why GW made it an MC - the jet pack. why would they bother doing loads of stupid extra rules when all the rules for jet MC's are done for you, and fit the bill nicely?

thread closed on that really. I hate to sound aggressive, but I can't see how you guys didn't see the logic behind that. its a MC so it can have the jet pack, rather than over complicating it.

GA

Here is how I see it, the Wraithknight is an MC because it is alive, it’s still piloted but like a Wraithlord the suit itself is controlled by an elder soul. Neither the Riptide nor the Dreadknight are like that, and should be classified as walkers. Crisis suits are fine as infantry because really they are just larger power armour, like a terminator. Dreadnoughts are still piloted so they are fine as vehicles. Penitent engines are almost exactly like the Dreadknight and Riptide and they are vehicles.

I wish it was a vehicle :(

If it was a vehicle it would probably be a fast walker. AV 12 12 10. 3 hp and deep strike. It would still be pretty good, can still have it's sheild, and would make way more sense.

A wraithknight is piloted by an Eldar soul, thus MC.
A dreadnought is piloted by a dead space marine, thus Walker.

Doh??

GW just dropped the ball with the MC's, nothing unusual with that. I would not field a dreadnought in 6th. Let's see what the new SM in SM are.

Kangodo wrote:
No, I don't think his shooting is the problem.
Correct me if I am wrong, but he only has two weapons, right?

My main problem is the 2+, should have been 3+ or even 4+ (you know, like all other MC's have!)

DreadKnights have 2+/5+ saves also

 starraptor wrote:

Kangodo wrote:
No, I don't think his shooting is the problem.
Correct me if I am wrong, but he only has two weapons, right?

My main problem is the 2+, should have been 3+ or even 4+ (you know, like all other MC's have!)

DreadKnights have 2+/5+ saves also

They're not a shooting unit with JSJ, Jump Infantry (unless upgraded), 6 wounds and the potential for FNP and Interceptor, though.

 zephoid wrote:
The solution needs to be weapons that are designed to kill MCs. Beast killer shells from the IG vanquisher for example. S8 AP2 ID. Even if you dont add ID, adding rerolls to wound on more weapons should help tone down the MC spam that is becoming popular. Each army should have some method to deal with MC and some method to deal with fliers. No army should be required to ally to create a TAC list. However, GW disagrees with this.

Nope, the Tyranid players already have enough problems with keeping their MCs alive.

General Annoyance wrote:
simple reason why GW made it an MC - the jet pack. why would they bother doing loads of stupid extra rules when all the rules for jet MC's are done for you, and fit the bill nicely?

thread closed on that really. I hate to sound aggressive, but I can't see how you guys didn't see the logic behind that. its a MC so it can have the jet pack, rather than over complicating it.

GA

Which is why the I was surprised the Hellturkey is a vehicle instead of an FMC.

barnowl wrote:

General Annoyance wrote:
simple reason why GW made it an MC - the jet pack. why would they bother doing loads of stupid extra rules when all the rules for jet MC's are done for you, and fit the bill nicely?

thread closed on that really. I hate to sound aggressive, but I can't see how you guys didn't see the logic behind that. its a MC so it can have the jet pack, rather than over complicating it.

GA

Which is why the I was surprised the Hellturkey is a vehicle instead of an FMC.

well, while I kinda agree with you, I also have a defence. I think GW wanted to portray the helldrake as a very fast (*machine*) of evil, so they made it a flyer. the riptide (*battlesuit*) is a bit more sluggish, so its a JP MC, while the drake is a flyer. I included the asterices to portray another difference between the two, and how that might effect the decision the writers made. I also think a flyer suits the drake as it makes it more like the big, swooping dragon it is, while the riptide fits its bill as a huge hovering battlesuit.

GA

 Ninjacommando wrote:
They are walkers because they have always been walkers (in the dread's case) if the Dread was going to become a MC its points would increase by ~50%, it would get the same stats as a Wraithlord but with a 2+ save.

Hmm. Wasn't Wraithlord originally a Walker?

Backfire wrote:

 Ninjacommando wrote:
They are walkers because they have always been walkers (in the dread's case) if the Dread was going to become a MC its points would increase by ~50%, it would get the same stats as a Wraithlord but with a 2+ save.

Hmm. Wasn't Wraithlord originally a Walker?

I think after 2nd is when it changed to an MC. The reason the dread would not become a MC is because 2 dexs with dreads in them (well one hellbrute but its still the same thing) has released them as walkers. Who knows, SM might get the Nemsis baby carrier in their update for no reason.

The only problem with changing the riptide to a Vehicle means that its Point value would have to be below a HH or if it keeps its cost then its armor and other abilities would have to make it far better than a hammer head, ie Av 13 all around, 4-5 Hp, shrouded (shield), some skimmer rules, jink, and a the assault move.

 sfshilo wrote:
Imo the game isn't done yet.

A walker is a gun platform. A CHEAP gun platform. All the s7 nonsense doesn't really hurt it.


And the forge fiend is good for exactly that. 5+ invulnerable and it can get Hp back.

The riptide went wrong when they gave it a way to shoot more then two weapons

Forgefiends and defilers arent cheap. They cost as much as a riptide. The vehicles die very quickly while the MCs are a royal pain in the butt to kill.


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Imperial Deceit wrote:
If it was a vehicle it would probably be a fast walker. AV 12 12 10. 3 hp and deep strike. It would still be pretty good, can still have it's sheild, and would make way more sense.

sounds about right to me.

I think all that would need to be done is give walkers a different damage chart to roll on. Perhaps have various things happen to it like weapon destroyed, immobilized, weapon skill/ballistic skill penalties, ect, not let it blow up on one shot but maybe have it's reactor go critical when the last hull point is removed. They would be more fluffy as per how they are portrayed in the backstory while letting them do more on the table.

Dreadnoughts aren't piloted by dead marines. To quote Miracle Max they are only “Mostly dead”

 Vineheart01 wrote:


If it were a walker, i dont think anyone would care long as it wasnt AV12 (in equivalence to current durability, it should be AV14/13/11 or something ridiculous like that) because it sits on your side of the table anyway.

I dont see how a defiler can be 12 12 10 and you think a riptide should be 14 13 11. The defiler is more points, slower, worse guns.

I put the riptide as about equal to a dreadnought in terms of armour, but faster.

Imperial Deceit wrote:
Dreadnoughts aren't piloted by dead marines. To quote Miracle Max they are only “Mostly dead”

Yup, and they are wired up to it and super doped up half the time, not to mention that they are suspended in goo with a view slit the size of an envelope. At least with the wraith knight you have a dead pilot who is fully integrated into the machine (think wraithguard) being directed by his psychically connected twin brother. This makes them a hell of a lot more agile and better controlled than a dreadnought any day of the week. As for Riptides, im sure the Tau have some super insane holographic displays combined with super advanced AIs and a neural link to the pilot, making it like a second body for them.

The riptide is still just a suit, and sense the Tau are neither psychic nor do they have neural uplinks (yet), their machines still are dependant on the pilots speed at inputting commands, a problem the Wraithknight doesn't have.

 Exergy wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:


If it were a walker, i dont think anyone would care long as it wasnt AV12 (in equivalence to current durability, it should be AV14/13/11 or something ridiculous like that) because it sits on your side of the table anyway.

I dont see how a defiler can be 12 12 10 and you think a riptide should be 14 13 11. The defiler is more points, slower, worse guns.

The defiler was given to chaos and was their only Ord. weapon they could get (unless you were iron warriors with the 1 basilisk and 1 Vindicator). as it stands now the Defiler is over costed for what it brings. moving it back towards its 3rd ed 150 points or slightly cheaper would be a better solution for the walker.

if the Riptide was 12/12/10 with 3 hp and deep strike the thing would cost 100 points and people would still Complain about it.

Imperial Deceit wrote:
The riptide is still just a suit, and sense the Tau are neither psychic nor do they have neural uplinks (yet), their machines still are dependant on the pilots speed at inputting commands, a problem the Wraithknight doesn't have.

tau suits do use Neural uplinks, i'll try to find the thing about the imperial guardsmen getting in a Crisis suit and the suit frying his brain, because his neural patterns weren't compatible.

That would be good, because I have never seen anywhere that the Tau have that tech yet.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
It depends on how its operated on whether or not its a walker or an exoskeletal suit.

Walkers are piloted by a dude sitting in a cockpit manning controls, think the cockpit from Mechwarrior games and thats basically what it is. Hes not linked with it any more than our current day F15 pilots are to the jet, everything is done manually.

Exosuits act as an extension of limbs. When the pilot moves, it moves, and he has no controls or buttons to hit because it reacts directly to him. This allows much much faster and precise reaction times because the pilot simply acts as though he werent in a suit, whereas a walker has to hit the right buttons and pull the right levers .

I always understood Dreadnoughts to house the barely alive remained of a great Marine hero, kept on life support and jacked directly into the gigantic armour around so he serves still. In other words, no lever pulling.

Imperial Deceit wrote:
That would be good, because I have never seen anywhere that the Tau have that tech yet.

Puretide Engram Neurochip: surgically implanted into the brain of a fire cast commander so he gains access the wisdom of Puretide

tau have been using neural tech for the last ~250 years.

and the thing about killing the Imperial guardsmen is from the Kill Team novel.