Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

TOs cannot possibly deal with most situations. If you move 14" or turn a flyer 110degrees and the TO comes over and you say "i moved 12" what is a TO going to do in that situation? Largely tournament games need to be self policed due to logistics. I'd like to know more about strategies people use with opponents that take advantage of this.

Talking with friends and others that play the hobby, most people are scared of confrontation. They see something that shouldn't happen and let it go because, "its not that big of a deal." Two things happen becuse of this. One, the person will continue to cheat and get more bolder as the game goes on. They might start by moving an extra inch or claiming cover from something that will get none. Ending the game with shady dice rolls and extra movement when you aren't looking. Trust me, it happens and has happened to me in my early playing days. The second thing that can happen is that the person made an honest mistake and everything seems to be fine for the rest of the game, and the mistake was just that, a mistake.

For me, I watch my opponent like a hawk in the first couple of rounds. See how they roll, how they move, and ask questions on things they are doing so they can verbalize everything. If everything seems legit, I back off and relax and let the game flow. If things appear fishy with dice or movement, I MIGHT let it slide the first time to see if it happens again. If it does, I will call the person on it immediately and explain to them that what they are doing is wrong.

I think most of it has to deal with confidence in yourself and rules. I know my rules, my codex, and have a pretty general knowledge of other books. So if someone is tryign to pull osmething fishy or it doesn't sound right, I ALWAYS ask, ALWAYS. Maybe ask to glance at their armybook for a second just to verify, but not making it a huge deal. I would always ask and make surey ou are comfortable with what is happening, because if not, the tension in the room becomes very real and uncomfortable for everyone. Plus, get in the BRB and as many codices as possible and learn the rules.

Acrimonious wrote:
TOs cannot possibly deal with most situations. If you move 14" or turn a flyer 110degrees and the TO comes over and you say "i moved 12" what is a TO going to do in that situation? Largely tournament games need to be self policed due to logistics. I'd like to know more about strategies people use with opponents that take advantage of this.

Sadly, no matter who you are, there will always be another player that does not enjoy playing against you or has something against you-one man's "cur" is another's best friend.. Therefore, you should always try to work things out from the get-go and if something comes up in a game, or you suspect something, the following steps are probably a good way to deal with things (basically concepts taken from previous posts):

Rules issues:

(1) Try to work it out with the player. Ask the player to show you the rule so you can see it for yourself-if it does not say what the player said it did (or represented) point out the difference and that should end most of any rules issues.

(2) If there is still a disagreement, get a judge to make a ruling and that should be final. Most tournaments have a clause where judge rulings are final and arguing with judge has consequences.


Gameplay issues:

(1) Keep an eye out for any gameplay issues. If someone is moving too much, not measuring distances appropriately, tell them politely that "it looks like to you that they did x," do you mind being more careful in doing "x?" This way the other player is notified that they should be more cautious in the "problem" area and hopefully they are just being sloppy and stop doing whatever the problem is.

(2) Come up with an amicable and creative solution. Specifically, if they are moving too far, I usually place a finger or die where the unit/model started and another one where it can go and at that point it is pretty obvious if they are moving too far or not. If it is something more serious or consistent, then having a judge spoken to and come and watch your game might be the best alternative. Every TO should be available to check up on these types of issues and police them if they are big/serious enough.

Abuse/candor:
This is a sticky and uncomfortable area but needs to be handled with care and maturity for a good and equitable result for all involved.

(1) Try to be as accommodating and thick skinned as possible. There are so many types of players, people and personalities and sometimes not everyone "jives well." Just because they have a different personality or playstyle doesn't mean they are the devil. A lot of times, simple good will can go a long way as I have actually been in an event where a player was getting a rule wrong, judge said he was getting it wrong and the player still had the audacity to cuss up a storm about the matter. Despite all of this I simply was nice to the guy and after talking a bit he apologized and said he was having a bad day/dealing with personal things and we resolved the rules issue and moved on and had a good time-who knows what is going on in a person's life? So in essence, go in with a good attitude and positive thinking-it's just a game.

(2) If a player is genuinely being abusive, rude or acting in an inappropriate manor, then talk to a TO/ref about it. Explain clearly and support with facts what the player has done/is doing that is in appropriate in your eyes and ask/have the TO or ref talk to the player to try to get things resolved. This should be a safe and anonymous way to get through to the player.

(3) If a player does not respond to TO feedback then some other players should try to talk to the player to bring up some legitimate concerns and get a dialogue going. Some players will be responsive/receptive, some will not but it is worth a shot.

If a player doesn't try to work something out with another player and if a TO doesn't ever talk with another player or try to work something out, then there is a breakdown in communication and that is the problem then. Ultimately, going into a game with a bad attitude towards someone just makes for a painful game for both players so as MikeFox has said in so many words, "can't we all just get along?"

outright cheating I clamp down on HARD. I find it disgusting.

Little errors I let go once or twice then go off on one about.

I agree with Blackmoor (which surprises me) that most instances of "cheating" are probably just honest mistakes.

If I was running a tournament I would use staff with the old metal dreadnoughts in stocking patrolling the area

Acrimonious wrote:
What do you do when you’re paired with a player like this or if this sort of thing is brought to your attention as a TO?

Spray them with Pepper Spray

Acrimonious wrote:

-Does the community as a whole do anything to prevent this from happening at the larger events? (Tar and feathering comes to mind)

Before the match, show them the can of pepper spray.

Acrimonious wrote:

-Is this just kinda common and I should expect people like this from time to time?

Not after being shown the can of pepper spray, no. Not common at all.

 kronk wrote:

Acrimonious wrote:
What do you do when you’re paired with a player like this or if this sort of thing is brought to your attention as a TO?

Spray them with Pepper Spray

Acrimonious wrote:

-Does the community as a whole do anything to prevent this from happening at the larger events? (Tar and feathering comes to mind)

Before the match, show them the can of pepper spray.

Acrimonious wrote:

-Is this just kinda common and I should expect people like this from time to time?

Not after being shown the can of pepper spray, no. Not common at all.

Best response yet.

To be clear, this post is not in reference to random pick up games, it is regarding tournament play only.

When it comes to things that are obvious and undeniable, like a list being over in points or violating a FOC restriction, I think the solution is clear: the game is a loss. To me its a black and white issue. Regardless of whether the list is 1pt or 100pts over the legal limit, the bottom line is that its over the limit for the event. I know many people will think this is unnecessarily harsh but without such a restriction we end up in a conversation about what amount of arbitrarily determined points over the limit is acceptable. Some may think 5 pts or less is immaterial to the outcome of a game, while others may say 11pts over is irrelevant. The reality is that both groups can be right or wrong depending on the circumstances of the games and army lists. Did my 5pts of melta bombs blow up your landraider? Or did it do nothing because your sternguard blasted my sergeant off the board before he could use them? The solution is simple, a list is legal based on the points limit or it isn’t.

 mortetvie wrote:

my math was slightly off...

This seems like an attempt to diminish a mistake that is not a matter of degree in my opinion. For example, you can’t be “slightly” pregnant. A list is legal or it isn’t.

When I take a list to a tournament I’ve added it up by hand, with a calculator, and then I put it into a spreadsheet to print copies for my opponents and the TO. If a mistake somehow slipped through after all that its MY fault and the appropriate thing to do is forfeit. There is a social dynamic in this game that can’t be ignored, most players are nice people that just want to have a good time and play some games. They don’t want to have to press an issue like this. I can’t speak for TOs (since I have never been one), but I would guess that they have a similar reaction in these scenarios. They want to minimize drama and keep the event moving along.

Any thoughts?

I second Bwartok. Sure, somebody can make a math mistake, but this is tourney play. Over the limit should be a forfeit, no question. Otherwise, there's too much elbow room for shenanigans. Print outs of lists from apps like battle scribe are helpful. Double check your numbers before you go to a tourney. If you're throwing together a list for an army you're unfamiliar with the day before, it couldn't hurt to check it twice. I played Acrimonious with a list 2 pts over once and felt bad about it - and that was a friendly match (he let me run it anyway). The limit is a hard limit, it's not malleable. Beyond the extra item or model you may get at 10 pts over, don't forget what you DID NOT have to sacrifice to fit that item or model into a legal list.

Wow, I really didn't think people used loaded dice in war games... guess I've been in denial. I suck playing as is let alone against loaded dice.

I was at the first large GW Tournament in Nashville TN, the over all winner, best painted and all, declared to everyone after he was given the trophy that he had never played before, had learned the game on the drive up, and that it wasn't his army nor had he painted it... then he dropped the trophy which broke on impact... Shocking conduct really... That is as close as it gets to me having seen or caught a cheater.

Ok, if someone is found to be doing something wrong then we owe it to everyone playing to talk to them about it, and draw in a tournament official to observe. If the conduct continues then DQ'd. Their army lists should be checked again under scrutiny. That is my opinion.

That doesn't make sense. How could he have won if he didn't know the rules?

Acrimonious wrote:
I would love to hear from 40k tournament veterans and organizers about their experiences with this.

Oh, the ways I can respond to so much in this thread.


1. First - it (this thread) is worse (or more effective?) than Queer Nation for getting people Outted.

2. Second - Acrimonious, I don't think you know this, but maybe it was the April or March RTT, but a well known TFG/cheater/douche had managed to get to Top Table with BloodRaven Ish. OverWatch, myself and another gave B.R.Ish a heads up on what to watch for. Our TO knew, too, and kept a closer eye on proceedings than normal. All went well. The TFG did *not* get the top of the day. I can't remember if Ish pulled a Draw or a Win, but it was not a Loss for him.

Lesson here? Locals, if they have the balls, might just step up and keep a self-policing eye on things. Like a ... citizens' patrol.

So, possibly
3. third - I will now be far more gutsy to ask for Codex/rules clarification or TO wariness on a suspected cheater. This is due to your thread. I dunno if I come across as a timid fellow, but, darn it, thanks to you I'm gonna try to *really* make sure folks are kept honest!
...
okay, that's total crap/baloney/malarkey. For those that know me, I got more chutzpah than my body weight allows for and I'll squeal on an opponent.

Aftermath. wrote:
That doesn't make sense. How could he have won if he didn't know the rules?

Not sure what didn't make sense, I stated that he had learned the rules in the car while riding to the tourney.

Bwartok wrote:
To be clear, this post is not in reference to random pick up games, it is regarding tournament play only.

When it comes to things that are obvious and undeniable, like a list being over in points or violating a FOC restriction, I think the solution is clear: the game is a loss. To me its a black and white issue. Regardless of whether the list is 1pt or 100pts over the legal limit, the bottom line is that its over the limit for the event. I know many people will think this is unnecessarily harsh but without such a restriction we end up in a conversation about what amount of arbitrarily determined points over the limit is acceptable. Some may think 5 pts or less is immaterial to the outcome of a game, while others may say 11pts over is irrelevant. The reality is that both groups can be right or wrong depending on the circumstances of the games and army lists. Did my 5pts of melta bombs blow up your landraider? Or did it do nothing because your sternguard blasted my sergeant off the board before he could use them? The solution is simple, a list is legal based on the points limit or it isn’t.

 mortetvie wrote:

my math was slightly off...

This seems like an attempt to diminish a mistake that is not a matter of degree in my opinion. For example, you can’t be “slightly” pregnant. A list is legal or it isn’t.

When I take a list to a tournament I’ve added it up by hand, with a calculator, and then I put it into a spreadsheet to print copies for my opponents and the TO. If a mistake somehow slipped through after all that its MY fault and the appropriate thing to do is forfeit. There is a social dynamic in this game that can’t be ignored, most players are nice people that just want to have a good time and play some games. They don’t want to have to press an issue like this. I can’t speak for TOs (since I have never been one), but I would guess that they have a similar reaction in these scenarios. They want to minimize drama and keep the event moving along.

Any thoughts?

There are certainly different degrees.

Degree 1.) I bought a piece of wargear that I screwed up points or did not add...maybe a melta bomb...I might never use this and it may not have any effect on the outcome.
Degree 2.) Mispayed for a unit and slightly over...more impact and harder to adjust for.
Degree 3.) Way over on points (I had a player submit a list one time that was 300+ points over)

This is way I always ask for pre submission for lists so they can be checked for points.

But sometimes even those "pre-submitted" lists get pushed through. Right after the new Daemons codex, I allied in a CSM detachment with a Slaaneshi lord and 2 units of 10 noise marines. My fourth game I found out my list was illegal and I didn't realize it, and nobody caught it until AFTER I played 4 of the 5 rounds. I got my win loss flipped, so I went from 3 wins and one loss to 1 win and 3 losses. Granted, it was a new codex, but still, sometimes mistakes happen.

**For those who don't know, marked lords only make troops in a primary detachment.

as Bwartok said, you cant be barely pregnant. There are degrees to how far over you go but really a list is legal or it isnt. If you make a mistake and it's too late to correct it, the right thing to do is to forfeit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Great point "dude i suck" goes back to the idea that these events are largely self policed by neccessity. All the more reason to have this discussion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It would be massive effort for one judge running a 16 member tournament to check all lists while also running the show.

Acrimonious wrote:
as Bwartok said, you cant be barely pregnant. There are degrees to how far over you go but really a list is legal or it isnt. If you make a mistake and it's too late to correct it, the right thing to do is to forfeit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Great point "dude i suck" goes back to the idea that these events are largely self policed by neccessity. All the more reason to have this discussion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It would be massive effort for one judge running a 16 member tournament to check all lists while also running the show.

Actually as a person who regularly ran 50+ person tournaments with no help, I can say that as long as you enforce early list submissions checking lists is not hard to do.

Breng77 wrote:
Degree 1.) I bought a piece of wargear that I screwed up points or did not add...maybe a melta bomb...I might never use this and it may not have any effect on the outcome.

But you can't just look at the cheapest item and say that was the only effect. Maybe the fact that you didn't pay for that melta bomb allowed you to take a Razorback instead of a Rhino, or freed up the last few points to let you fit in that named HQ character instead of a generic one, and that probably makes a much bigger difference.

IMO the solution is an automatic game loss for every game you've played or started with the illegal list, and then you remove your most expensive unit from your list for the rest of the tournament. Harsh? Sure, but it ensures that you're not getting any benefit from the illegal list.

 Peregrine wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Degree 1.) I bought a piece of wargear that I screwed up points or did not add...maybe a melta bomb...I might never use this and it may not have any effect on the outcome.

But you can't just look at the cheapest item and say that was the only effect. Maybe the fact that you didn't pay for that melta bomb allowed you to take a Razorback instead of a Rhino, or freed up the last few points to let you fit in that named HQ character instead of a generic one, and that probably makes a much bigger difference.

IMO the solution is an automatic game loss for every game you've played or started with the illegal list, and then you remove your most expensive unit from your list for the rest of the tournament. Harsh? Sure, but it ensures that you're not getting any benefit from the illegal list.

I think this is the most easily enforced and implemented solution suggested so far for lists discovered to be over on points. Unfortunately, pairings will have already happened for subsequent rounds.

And I see evidence as to why most of you don't run events super harsh punishments for mistakes will cost you players...ore submitted lists if they are actually checked (and I mean submitted before the event, for RTts I generally ask for 2 days from my GT it is 1 week, make it fairly easy to catch issues if you check things thoroughly.

As for removing your most expensive unit....that is one of the dumbest thing I have ever heard....so say my most expensive unit I'm my wolf guard space wolf army is Logam....I remove him and now I have an illegal list because I bought 1 too many combi weapons....really that works out great...now I forfeit again because I need to cheat even to play....

If there is a point mistake it is easy to correct that mistake and not do more, lose that piece of war gear etc....

But like I said preventative action is best.

 kronk wrote:

Acrimonious wrote:
What do you do when you’re paired with a player like this or if this sort of thing is brought to your attention as a TO?

Spray them with Pepper Spray

Acrimonious wrote:

-Does the community as a whole do anything to prevent this from happening at the larger events? (Tar and feathering comes to mind)

Before the match, show them the can of pepper spray.

Acrimonious wrote:

-Is this just kinda common and I should expect people like this from time to time?

Not after being shown the can of pepper spray, no. Not common at all.

How are you supposed to get pepper spray from? [becuase I want some]

Breng77 wrote:
And I see evidence as to why most of you don't run events super harsh punishments for mistakes will cost you players...

The alternative is to offer an incentive to cheat, since even if you get caught you're not going to suffer any penalty beyond having to stop cheating.

And sure, harsh punishments cost you players. But you know what else costs you players? Having no confidence in the legitimacy of the event because cheating is never punished. Why would someone want to attend an event where they have to be paranoid and verify every detail of their opponent's list because they know the TO isn't going to help them?

As for removing your most expensive unit....that is one of the dumbest thing I have ever heard....so say my most expensive unit I'm my wolf guard space wolf army is Logam....I remove him and now I have an illegal list because I bought 1 too many combi weapons....really that works out great...now I forfeit again because I need to cheat even to play....

Alternatively, you were only able to bring Logan at all because you had those extra points from not paying for a combi weapon available.

Though I suppose you make a case for modifying the rule to remove the most expensive unit that can be removed without creating an illegal list (or, if you somehow have only the minimum to have a legal army remove the most expensive unit and replace it with the cheapest possible unit that would make a legal army).

If there is a point mistake it is easy to correct that mistake and not do more, lose that piece of war gear etc....

How exactly can you tell me which specific item of war gear resulted in you going over points? Why is it the 5-point melta bomb on a random sergeant instead of the 5-point flamer or upgrading a 5-point flamer to a 10-point melta gun? If you try to identify a specific item then the price of getting caught with an illegal list is always going to be losing the least valuable upgrade, and that's not really even a price at all.

I've heard of a player over here who had been using dodgy dice and this was found in the aftermath of one tournament. It happened again in another event and the TOs watched him.

He has since, apparently been ostracised by the gaming community and no TO will accept his entry to their events. If it drives him from the hobby, then it's a small price to pay - as he was apparently "not fun" to play against (even from other 'cheesehead' players). If he mends his ways, he might be welcomed back, but that trust will have to be earned back.

Honestly, I tried not to think about the cheating while I was at the event, actually the event helped me forget. Eventually I did divorce her though...

I was in a tournament final for 40k a few years ago, this was my first major tournament and the first time I'd really excelled.

The game was based on VP and I had the Nightbringer tied up with my opponents DA Character (the name escapes me), a few terminators and scouts, I hit and took a wound off his commander, which with the Nightbringer caused ID, he proceeded to tell me that his commander couldn't be ID'd due to a wargear attached to him.

I was fine by this, tournament final, a character I've never came across, seems legit... I eventually whittled down the character and a few other models in the melee but lost by one VP. At the end of the game the TO came over and asked how it went, I told him it was really close, but the non-ID on the character was just too much for me with his four wounds.

The TO pulled out the codex, looked up the character and noted that it didn't have this piece of wargear, worked the result and gave me the tournament, infront of everyone disqualifying the guy (which he said he wouldnt've done if the guy still would've won if it didn't make a difference; fair).

I think more than anything, the social shame of being called out as a cheater infront of all the local guys is the best thing a TO can do to a guy.

 Peregrine wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
And I see evidence as to why most of you don't run events super harsh punishments for mistakes will cost you players...

The alternative is to offer an incentive to cheat, since even if you get caught you're not going to suffer any penalty beyond having to stop cheating.

And sure, harsh punishments cost you players. But you know what else costs you players? Having no confidence in the legitimacy of the event because cheating is never punished. Why would someone want to attend an event where they have to be paranoid and verify every detail of their opponent's list because they know the TO isn't going to help them?

As for removing your most expensive unit....that is one of the dumbest thing I have ever heard....so say my most expensive unit I'm my wolf guard space wolf army is Logam....I remove him and now I have an illegal list because I bought 1 too many combi weapons....really that works out great...now I forfeit again because I need to cheat even to play....

Alternatively, you were only able to bring Logan at all because you had those extra points from not paying for a combi weapon available.

Though I suppose you make a case for modifying the rule to remove the most expensive unit that can be removed without creating an illegal list (or, if you somehow have only the minimum to have a legal army remove the most expensive unit and replace it with the cheapest possible unit that would make a legal army).

If there is a point mistake it is easy to correct that mistake and not do more, lose that piece of war gear etc....

How exactly can you tell me which specific item of war gear resulted in you going over points? Why is it the 5-point melta bomb on a random sergeant instead of the 5-point flamer or upgrading a 5-point flamer to a 10-point melta gun? If you try to identify a specific item then the price of getting caught with an illegal list is always going to be losing the least valuable upgrade, and that's not really even a price at all.

It is actually rather easy...primarily because they have points costs wrong on an item and that causes the overage. Again if you check ahead of time no need to have harsh penalties and no fear of cheating....You solution is over complicated an unnecessary...it is simple enough to pre-check lists. IF you want to say absent that player are force into losing earlier games (which I still think generally speaking is overkill for something like being a point or 2 over) then that is fine, but then I would allow the offending player to drop whatever is necessary to have the list under on points quickly.. This drop most expensive unit (while forcing them then to play hugely down on points when they usually were only over by say 1-5 points in most cases), while maintaining a legal list and if need be replace it with the cheapest unit (cause everyone has the models to do this obviously especially on hand at a tournament. Honestly if I made a list mistake and this was enforced I would leave the event, and never attend again. THe DQ from earlier games fine I screwed up I can see derserving it. Being forced to play the rest of the event with a severely under points list why bother. So say I am running my Daemon list at 2k points at an 8 game event

Fateweaver
2 TZ heralds
Khorne Herald
Slaanesh Herald

8 Screamers
19 Dogs
18 Seekers

10 Letters
10 Daemonettes
10 Horrors

Soul Grinder

and some how i find out I added an extra gift and I am over by a point (i.m really not but lets just say I am). I find out game 1. Instead of Dropping the gift or a model off a unit to be back under points I am now dropping Fateweaver and running my list at 1701 points....for the next 7 games....yeah that is not going to happen I'm going to leave the event because I am so severely screwed and you obviously can tell that the most expensive unit is not the offending party (people usually add expensive things to the list early), most times things that put people over are last minute wargear additions or changes to squad size...or miscosting units. Say in my case I thought Blood letters were 9 points a model and that I ended up at 1981 points so I added a lesser gift to go up to 1991. But really they are 10 points....now I am a point over....that is what happens. Better to DQ me and let me fix my list and get it approved...if I cannot or will not I am DQed for the rest of my games (I can play or not). But docking me hundereds of points and DQ losing games is ridiculous.

All I can think about reading some posts in this thread is when Edward Norton and Matt Damon get the gak kicked out them after cheating in a poker game in "Rounders".

Aftermath. wrote:
I almost got into a fist fight with a TFG during a 5th edition tournament. He was running a list with 9 Rhinos, and was moving a couple of them twice in the same turn. It was hard to keep track of with so many rhinos on the board, but I watched him do it.

I called him on it, and he started to get nasty. I told him lets roll it off like gentleman, and he continued to be a betch. I snapped and told him to shut his fackin mouth, and if it continues we can step outside and settle it.

What a tough guy! Hey guys, look at this tough guy over here! I bet he also has a smokin hot girlfriend. So lucky!

Also, the the OP who called out the other guy who is arguing with him in this thread both sound terrible.

I've had a similar situation happen to me once. Played against a CSM list, the guy gave some dudes plasma pistols that took his point value 10 over.

I didn't catch this, the TO did on review of the lists (TO's at our store always go over the lists). I ended up winning by a hair, but the TO gave me full points for that game in the end. The guys list was adjusted, and he was allowed to continue on for the rest of the tourney.

I feel that was a right call to make. 10 points doesn't seem like a big deal, but we have limits for a reason. A rule was broken, a punishment was levied.