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 Wilytank wrote:

Thatguyoverthere11 wrote:
I feel like you almost have to take Mephiston or a lvl 2 Librarian with the str 10 power. They are really the only way to take out all of these new MCs flying around the table.

I took a look at Mephiston and I've made the following conclusion: This guy ain't got gak on a Bloodthirster.

You mean Mephiston is worse in combat than the model purposely desgined to be the ultimate melee monster? Shockingly valuable insight. Great contribution.

What thatguyoverthere is saying is that Mephiston is quite good at dealing with most of the monstrous creatures and flying monstrous creatures (once ground) than many other comparably priced models. Simply by virtue of casting his S10 power, he can ID a stock demon prince in either codex. He also has great odds of doing a wound to a T6 monster (Greater Demon, Tyranid MC) and instant killing them with his Force Weapon (only Nids get SiTW protection and Mephiston still passes on average dice).

You have to use Mephiston and all BA assault units as Bullies. We don't get a single character or unit that would compromise a deathstar in the traditional sense, however we have units that are more than capeable of causing significant damages to the right target. Mephiston will annihilate anything in power armor or worse. He can counter all those annoying GK power armor guys with halberds. He will cause mass damage and destruction to any unit without an eternal warrior. I got a little ballsy and put him up against a GK librarian I single combat. He had a sword so I got my 2+and he got his. We both ended up making all our saves, he got lucky and made 5 in a row. Then we remembered that Mephiston didn't perform his hammer of wrath attack and since this was a friendly game we allowed it to happen..... Wounded the librarian and he failed his 2+, he only had one wound left to loose at this point and subsequently died. With hindsight I know to avoid those fights with Meph because he needs to earn his points, he needs to get into cc and tear things up. Also don't forget he can be str10 so you can literally use your sword as a giant can opener on all vehicals regardless of their av value.

I used to favor a terminator librarian wih a SS and force axe. But he whiffed in cc to often with only 2 attacks base. I am liking the switch to Mephiston.

Also meph the god of killing AV14 tanks thanks to str 10

Nice lil squads of fragons, melta sternis and grav bikes loooove mephy... so do termis and anything holding something that starts with a 'plas'. So do tarpits.
Mephy is awsome in the right situations, like a lot of units. But he isnt the be all and end all that a lot of people are making him out to be!

its easy to keep him away from those units though, if your letting mephy get beat up by them thats your fault. sorry but fragon and bikes don't have the range and melee power to realistically get close to mephy before charges and wipes them.

A grav bike has a 30" threat range. A fragon unit is nice and safe in a hard as nails wave serpent before they are dropped off for their melta volly. A drop pod melta stern unit can deploy anywhere therefore has an unlimited threat range. 2 of these units combined will kill mephy. Yes they will have committed suicide but in doing so will have killed a 250pt model, distracted at least 2 other units to ensure their destruction (most likely killing 2 or 3 more models with overwatch and or melee) and will have also brought the opponent some breathing room from those said two units. And since the opponent would have bought them as suicide units anyway they won't be a big loss to them after achieving their double goal. And thats IF you have the units to spare to deal with them. If your opponents have never managed to do this then they are not playing to a high level.
Im not saying this will always happen. Im saying that mephy has a lot of hard counters!

Poly Ranger wrote:
A grav bike has a 30" threat range. A fragon unit is nice and safe in a hard as nails wave serpent before they are dropped off for their melta volly. A drop pod melta stern unit can deploy anywhere therefore has an unlimited threat range. 2 of these units combined will kill mephy. Yes they will have committed suicide but in doing so will have killed a 250pt model, distracted at least 2 other units to ensure their destruction (most likely killing 2 or 3 more models with overwatch and or melee) and will have also brought the opponent some breathing room from those said two units. And since the opponent would have bought them as suicide units anyway they won't be a big loss to them after achieving their double goal. And thats IF you have the units to spare to deal with them. If your opponents have never managed to do this then they are not playing to a high level.
Im not saying this will always happen. Im saying that mephy has a lot of hard counters!

Has any one mentioned he flys solo yet?

Exactly!

ok, those grav bikes have 6 shots, about 4 will hit smart BA player has mephy in at least 4+ cover, with a sang priest nearby


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thats if he hasn't blocked most LoS on mephy

 g0atsticks wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
A grav bike has a 30" threat range. A fragon unit is nice and safe in a hard as nails wave serpent before they are dropped off for their melta volly. A drop pod melta stern unit can deploy anywhere therefore has an unlimited threat range. 2 of these units combined will kill mephy. Yes they will have committed suicide but in doing so will have killed a 250pt model, distracted at least 2 other units to ensure their destruction (most likely killing 2 or 3 more models with overwatch and or melee) and will have also brought the opponent some breathing room from those said two units. And since the opponent would have bought them as suicide units anyway they won't be a big loss to them after achieving their double goal. And thats IF you have the units to spare to deal with them. If your opponents have never managed to do this then they are not playing to a high level.
Im not saying this will always happen. Im saying that mephy has a lot of hard counters!

Has any one mentioned he flys solo yet?

Mine doesn't fly solo. He starts off and moves along-side a Dark Angels Bike Librarian with a Power Field Generator, who is also attached to a unit of Sanguinary Guard. All of that foils the drop pod sterngard and helps out against the grav bikers, at least giving him a 4+ invul against those incoming wounds. And, those wounds are only incoming if he's not behind some sort of line of sight blocking terrain...

I know I've already mentioned what I've outlined above, but people keep reiterating the same issues that aren't really issues if you put an ounce of thought into list-building, so I figured I'd throw it out there once again...

All those hard counters are also really good against MC`s, but still we see a ton of MC`s everywhere.

Mephiston is a single model on a small base, but fights like a very hard-hitting MC. He is also fast and can lend a transport to get there even faster. In a transport, he is also much less vulnerable to all those "hard counters". If they wreck it, he can disembark out of LOS, and if it explodes he gets a cover save at least. And of course, the transport itself needs to be taken out first.

He is really good against eldar, as he is fast enough to catch serpents and wraithknights, and he will destroy anything he catches with ease.

If you are not going for some crazy scew-list like stormraven spam or land raider spam, I would grab Mephiston and a libby with fear of the darkness.

 raiden wrote:
ok, those grav bikes have 6 shots, about 4 will hit smart BA player has mephy in at least 4+ cover, with a sang priest nearby


Automatically Appended Next Post:
thats if he hasn't blocked most LoS on mephy

9 shots with a combi causing 5 wounds. Rarely will he have a 4+ cover if he is advancing (dont know where you get 'at least' from), more like a 5+. Besides unless it is area terrain or shield power, these units have a good shot of manouvering to avoid the cover. Down drops a melta pod (lets be kind and not say plasma) squad to cause another 3 wounds (on top of the grav guns 5.) So Mephy has now suffered 8 wounds (8.something on average). With a 5+ cover he will still suffer 5-6wounds. If you have also managed to give him fnp we can call this 4 wounds suffered. And that is WITH all the circumstances stacking in his favour. So now a couple of long range lascannon shots or a tl assult cannon can complete the job. Simples. Nowyou have to deal with a bike squad and a stern squad. And since most BA units are 300pts+ if you include their characters, the opponent has just distracted 600pts+ of your army and killed a 250pt model.

Your 4+ invuln relies on DA allies which are another sub par army. And using your sang guard to chase backwards and kill the recently appeared sternguard really benefits your opponent. Running him behind LoS blocking cover usually requires a 250pt raider for the advance, and whilst effective, is also really expensive. The said units also have the potential to flank it to prevent the LoS blocking tactic anyway.

And to be fair that is the basic problem with mephy. You need to invest in points to defend him from such units if your opponent knows you regularly take him. Protecting him also often distracts you from other potential moves and makes you make charges/moves you wouldnt have made otherwise to stop such units getting to him. Against a weak opponent you dont need to worry about this. But against anyone with a shread of tactical aptitude you DO need to protect him. And this thus influences your list, strategy and/or tactics.

Deploying from a raven with a dc dread is a totally different kettle of fish however ;-). I love this move!

I find Mephy works best as a surprise. Take him regularly and he will be countered often as he will be expected. He is like Dzeko - a super sub!

I run Mephiston usually behind a land raider, literally base to base, so that it is near impossible to draw LOS to him. Inside the Landraider are death co with a powerfist or two.... Now you have a choice of which unit to deal with first.

Btw I am not bashing mephy here. Im giving a realistic take on him. He is worth 250pts on many occassions. He would be the best IC in the game if he had that status. I play him fairly often (about 1/3 of my games) so I am NOT saying hes bad. Im just saying he's not all the avengers wrapped into one like some people make him out to be!


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 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
I run Mephiston usually behind a land raider, literally base to base, so that it is near impossible to draw LOS to him. Inside the Landraider are death co with a powerfist or two.... Now you have a choice of which unit to deal with first.

That is the tactic I use when not running him in a raven. Pods can still get him though as can anything once youve unleashed him and he has destroyed his first unit. Again - not being defeatest - it works, but its not invulnerable or an 'auto choice'!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Running him behind a raider is a good move. Running him in a raider and you are denying a unit their transport that they desperately need and thus spending 500pts to get mephy into combat. Unless of course you're running a barebones assault squad, but then you pay a 65pt tax.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Do you all see my point about having to tailor your list and invest a substantial amout of your points to ensure 1 particular model gets into combat?

Poly Ranger wrote:

Do you all see my point about having to tailor your list and invest a substantial amout of your points to ensure 1 particular model gets into combat?

You can look at it that way, but it's not really what's taking place. I was already running a librarian on a bike in my lists, but at some point I realized that a DA bike libby with a PFG was less expensive than my Blood Angels counterpart and added a ton of extra utility. That Libby and the Sang Guard (along with a Plasma HG squad that follows close behind) is already in my list no matter what BA HQ I take, so throwing Mephiston in there really doing anything negative other than costing me 250pts. I feel those points are well spent considering how devastating he can be.

It took me awhile to start running Mephiston, so that may be why I'm stumping for him here now. That, and he's just FUN.

I dunno 250 points for a HQ in a model starved army seems like huge investment. I play in a meta where troops are a 6 pick automatically though, so to each his own.

I'm by no means knocking him, I've played him all ways mentioned: LR, SR, walking behind a LR. He is awesome, just refer to my first sentence.

 Voidwraith wrote:

That, and he's just FUN.

Can't deny - he is certainly that!

 Voidwraith wrote:
Start running Mephiston. There's really no reason not to take this guy. Being AP3 is barely an issue when he's mobile enough to choose his targets, and when he gets there, it's total annihilation. After buffing himself with S10 and Preferred Enemy, he'll be hitting most targets on 3s, rerolling 1s, and wounding on 2s, rerolling 1s. His sword being a force weapon is added utility against multi-wound baddies that may otherwise be an issue.

You can't spend a better 250pts.

As for the librarian, the BA libby is old and expensive. Dip in the Dark Angels codex and ally in their libby. Put him on a bike and give him a power field generator. Now, everything within 3" of that model has a 4+ invul save, including a guy like Mephiston, if you choose to keep Mephy close to the librarian until the action starts. As an added bonus, the DA librarian on a bike with the power field generator costs less than the BA libby with a jump pack. It's just not fair...

Either way, learn to use Mephiston. He's one of the reasons Blood Angels are cool. You want to play with cool, fun units don't ya?

Thanks, for this, @voidwraith--it perfectly answers my question in my "DA Newbie" thread.


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Furthermore, I have really enjoyed reading this about Mephiston. I last tried him out in the last iteration of the Eldar, and their "try a psychic test and die" magic item (whatever it was) scared the poop out of me, so I couldn't use him well at all.

The lamest thing for me is the lack of IC status--I don't know why GW couldn't amend the book and change that. So...besides literally walking him nose-to-chassis with a Land Raider, or the Bike strategy (which I will try) does anyone else have any advice on how to "bubble wrap" Mephiston so he gets to combat? No cheap chaff units in BA, unfortunately, but any thoughts?

Also, is it fair to say that Mephiston is a justifiable choice in a LARGE points game of 40k, where his 250-point price tag is not such a big deal? In a smaller game, I agree that the Librarian (probably paired with a Sanguinary Priest and Sternguard) is the way to go.


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I appreciate it, faithful BA players. I do agree that we need to run our fluff and see what happens, or else start painting up Imperial Fists or something. So...I will bring him out again, and see how he does. I liked the comment about Blood, too. As long as I can kill stuff, maybe I can be satisfied. Phyrric victory, and all that. And, yes, the "Red Seed" comment was awesome. Great thread, people!

 pantheralegionnaire wrote:

The lamest thing for me is the lack of IC status--I don't know why GW couldn't amend the book and change that. So...besides literally walking him nose-to-chassis with a Land Raider, or the Bike strategy (which I will try) does anyone else have any advice on how to "bubble wrap" Mephiston so he gets to combat? No cheap chaff units in BA, unfortunately, but any thoughts?

Take him in a storm raven - I've seen this done to people and its funny...

Raven flies up, one man leaps out.

And then goes off like a bomb. (against the right target )

Careful with the DA libby on a bike if you are running him with an assault squad btw. Since he has a 5+ jink save on the move, a smart opponent will just focus fire him out of the unit and then you lose the generator.

Buy a 5 man assault squad with a heavy flamer razorback. Put them in reserve, have mephiston jump into their ride and burn 24" up the field on turn 1. Cheap and very efficient

All this talk about mephiston actually makes me want to play him again.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Careful with the DA libby on a bike if you are running him with an assault squad btw. Since he has a 5+ jink save on the move, a smart opponent will just focus fire him out of the unit and then you lose the generator.

Would he not be able to use the 4++ from the power generator thingy?
Can you focus fire someone if they all have a 4++?
Can you choose to shoot in order of cover save instead?

Poly Ranger wrote:
Careful with the DA libby on a bike if you are running him with an assault squad btw. Since he has a 5+ jink save on the move, a smart opponent will just focus fire him out of the unit and then you lose the generator.

I thought you could only do it the other way around.

You can focus fire on anyone in a unit with a different cover save. The invuln has nothing to do with it.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Careful with the DA libby on a bike if you are running him with an assault squad btw. Since he has a 5+ jink save on the move, a smart opponent will just focus fire him out of the unit and then you lose the generator.

I guess I'd have to see the game-state you're speaking of where it would ever matter. Or, maybe you're saying that because the Bike Libby has a jink (cover) save and the assault squad doesn't, that all of the wounds from a 4+ Focus Fire would go to the Bike Libby. That doesn't appear to be the case, as at the top-left of pg.19, it states that if you declare a Focus Fire on cover saves of 4+, that wounds can only be allocated to models with a cover save of 4+, 5+, 6+ or no cover save at all.

I realize that it gives that example immediately after saying "Alternatively, you can declare Focus Fire against models with no cover save", but the example that follows tells you exactly what should transpire if you declare a Focus Fire on cover saves of 4+, so I feel pretty confident that I could allocate wounds to my assault squad members. If you need further convincing, there's a great example at the bottom of pg 19. (which I just looked at and totally backs up what I'm saying) involving 5 space marines firing at 10 orks who are in varying degrees of cover. It's spelled out pretty clearly there...

 Illumini wrote:
He is really good against eldar, as he is fast enough to catch serpents and wraithknights, and he will destroy anything he catches with ease.

I disagree with this, there is very little that Meph can do to scare Eldar. The basic Eldar weaponry (Shurikan Catapults) shred him, how does it feel to have 200+pts washed away by 5 6's? Or to be instant deathbed by Wraith weapons. He would simply melt from the firepower Eldar can drop onto a single model, 2+ save or not. Also a Wraithknight is in no trouble from Meph, the Knight has a 12 inch move, same as Meph, so without stupid movement Meph shouldn't catch him. All the while the Wraithknight will be dropping 2 AP 2 shots that insta death on 6's.

- mephiston - still amazing at bring a 3+ assassin, either base powers or rule book powers + storm raven. Also he can shrug off storm raven crashes like a boss.
- librarian/resularch - the standard 'cheap' options in the BA codex
- tycho - fairly costed, Captain stats with stern guard ammo, a ccw that ignores armour at imitative, a MC combine melta and gives your BA all ld 10.
- Dante - usable -high coated for the lack of EW but his start of game curse + above avg combat ability is useful.

Just avoid astro, captains, and the sanguinor.... Wish corbulo could be a choice.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

 Illumini wrote:
He is really good against eldar, as he is fast enough to catch serpents and wraithknights, and he will destroy anything he catches with ease.

I disagree with this, there is very little that Meph can do to scare Eldar. The basic Eldar weaponry (Shurikan Catapults) shred him, how does it feel to have 200+pts washed away by 5 6's? Or to be instant deathbed by Wraith weapons. He would simply melt from the firepower Eldar can drop onto a single model, 2+ save or not. Also a Wraithknight is in no trouble from Meph, the Knight has a 12 inch move, same as Meph, so without stupid movement Meph shouldn't catch him. All the while the Wraithknight will be dropping 2 AP 2 shots that insta death on 6's.

If you get the infantry out of their tanks to fire shuriken, they are very vulnerable to other stuff like fast heavy flamer razorbacks, drop pod units (fragnought/flamer assault marines). Mephiston is resillient for his pts against wave serpents, which are the core shooting of many eldar lists, so if they choose to fire at him, he will soak a lot of firepower that could have been better used against other units in your army.

Of course, in theory, he can never catch a waveserpent or a wraithknight. The table is not endless however, and there are objectives, transports and other units on the table. When mephiston burns 24" over the table in a razorback into your lines, supported by units in pods and long range fire, it may not be possible to escape him. Also, if he can scare a WK to jump backwards shooting at him, that is fine by me. With 4+ cover (which should often be obtainable by a single model) It has around 11% chance to kill him and 50% chance to take a wound, sucks if he gets that ID shots in, but those 9/10 turns that doesn`t happen, you have almost taken a 240pts unit out of the game just by being present.

And again, Mephiston is one small model. It is not hard to hide him completely out of LOS

So far what i'm getting is that mephiston is in a lot of love hate relationships. I do feel however that the people who are saying that he is sub-standard are themselves forgetting that he will be backed up by an army that will most likely be more revolving around getting things like troops, cheap transports and only one or two land raiders.
Creating an army that revolves around an HQ unit doesn't actually sound all that crazy to me, considering that there is nothing that him and a vindicator put together can't kill. Now that I have gotten him and played a few games I find that he's a great spearhead next to a land raider and a couple of assault squads. I can understand all of the concerns about people thinking that he can get romped if he footslogs for too long, but if you can pick your targets properly then he will always be in combat and your opponent will have a hard time getting to him

 hazal wrote:
- mephiston - still amazing at bring a 3+ assassin, either base powers or rule book powers + storm raven. Also he can shrug off storm raven crashes like a boss.
- librarian/resularch - the standard 'cheap' options in the BA codex
- tycho - fairly costed, Captain stats with stern guard ammo, a ccw that ignores armour at imitative, a MC combine melta and gives your BA all ld 10.
- Dante - usable -high coated for the lack of EW but his start of game curse + above avg combat ability is useful.

Just avoid astro, captains, and the sanguinor.... Wish corbulo could be a choice.

I disagree, the sanguinor is an amazing HQ hunter and if you run him NEAR assault squads is a free +1 attack. sure you can't attach him, but that doesn't mean you cant run the ASM along side him. corbulo, is a tad expensive BUT is an amazing tank and gives you 1 reroll which is always nice as well as being able to take out Wave serpents and other AV10 rear vehicles. Astorath is actually pretty decent, attach him to a DC squad for some fun or just a ASM he forces all made invuln saves to be rerolled and hitting at str 6 works fairly well.