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I would just like it so the heads dont face in the same direction.

A hobby saw and greenstuff will fix that. And time. And skill. And patience.

Hell, hire a sculptor to make you 2-3 different heads looking in different directions that fit the socket. I will cast them up for you en masse, and you can make a mint selling them.

Pros:
-Fit Together Well
-Light
-Take paint very well
Cons:
-Plastic is all bendy.
-Mold lines in places I'm talented or patient enough to fix.
-Detail is "Fuzzy"
-Doesn't cut or trim quite right.

Overall I prefer the metals.

 darefsky wrote:

 Ma55ter_fett wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:
That's ok, once you get more Khador, you'll never notice it because you'll rarely ever use MoW.

Nuts, can't run all jacks, can't run MoW, beginning to wonder what the hell you can run that's khador and not the deathstar.

IFP
Kayazy
Rifle Corps
Uhlans
Greylords
Great Bears
Greylords on horses
Doom Reavers

So none of the models I got into War machine to play are strictly speaking "Good".

Run Karchev Theme. It's all about Jacks and MoWs. I've seen people do real well with it, too.

Just realize that it gets a bit trickier if players have seen his tricks before, though the look on someone's face the first time they see the Jack Slingshot is worth it.

 Ma55ter_fett wrote:

 darefsky wrote:

 Ma55ter_fett wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:
That's ok, once you get more Khador, you'll never notice it because you'll rarely ever use MoW.

Nuts, can't run all jacks, can't run MoW, beginning to wonder what the hell you can run that's khador and not the deathstar.

IFP
Kayazy
Rifle Corps
Uhlans
Greylords
Great Bears
Greylords on horses
Doom Reavers

So none of the models I got into War machine to play are strictly speaking "Good".

Khador has by a wide margin, the highest player attrition rate of any faction. I think this is because it's one of the easiest factions to get an inaccurate impression of at a glance. I think between the fact the game starts at a battlebox level, and the emphasis of Warnouns in the fluff new players are pretty much certain to walk away with the wrong idea unless a vet goes out of their way to clear things up.

Chongara wrote:
and the emphasis of Warnouns in the fluff

We can't even blame Khador's fluff. While we do get massed Khador Jacks in the fluff, it's almost always in support of a staggering amount of infantry. Even their fluff is telling us Khador=infantry spam.

 Surtur wrote:
A hobby saw and greenstuff will fix that. And time. And skill. And patience.

IMO you should not need it. /you should be able to make it your own out of the box

The PP plastics are a huge, godawful, disappointment. That they've more-or-less apologized and are looking for new sources is the only bright spot in the whole affair.

It's especially too bad because many of their new metals are really quite nice. Hopefully they get things together soon.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 Surtur wrote:
A hobby saw and greenstuff will fix that. And time. And skill. And patience.

IMO you should not need it. /you should be able to make it your own out of the box

Hey, people complain there isn't enough converting possibilities in Warmachine. The fact is you have to go old school on the models to convert them.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 Surtur wrote:
A hobby saw and greenstuff will fix that. And time. And skill. And patience.

IMO you should not need it. /you should be able to make it your own out of the box

That is your subjective opinion.

If those extra parts mean that the boxes become more expensive or that the individual poses become more static (because in practice that is what you get when you try to implement "multi-pose" kits), then I can do without them just fine.

I don't get it, bad fit in joints, bad slot fit in base, gaps and no instructions?

The only problem I ever had with any minis were the missing pieces that could happen quite frequently with the PP metal minis. I can see that a mold line going through the face or detailed parts could be a problem, but that happens to metal minis too. Everything else is fixed with a knife, a plier clipper, glue and greenstuff.

I have had 0 problems with PP plastic so far. That includes titan gladiator (with Tiberion), warpwolf (with Ghetorix), pKaya, argus and Cetratii.

Downside is:
-can have less detail
-can have less poses (3-in-1 heavy kits, units) but this can be easily countered by better manufacter design (like GW)

Positive:
-chips alot less
-converts alot easier
-easier to transport
-less missing pieces
-easier to hold while painting
-more durable to fall damage
-doesn't scrape other models that much if they contact other minis on the gaming board

I've just put together the Cyriss Battlegroup and I have to agree that the quality isn't great.

I can also agree with Baxx's opinions on PP Plastics positives. This was however my first purchase of a plastic kit where I've had to build the models myself.

 Ma55ter_fett wrote:

 darefsky wrote:

 Ma55ter_fett wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:
That's ok, once you get more Khador, you'll never notice it because you'll rarely ever use MoW.

Nuts, can't run all jacks, can't run MoW, beginning to wonder what the hell you can run that's khador and not the deathstar.

IFP
Kayazy
Rifle Corps
Uhlans
Greylords
Great Bears
Greylords on horses
Doom Reavers

So none of the models I got into War machine to play are strictly speaking "Good".

MOW are fine in pButcher theme, and the IFK makes them decent as well.

 Ma55ter_fett wrote:

 darefsky wrote:

 Ma55ter_fett wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:
That's ok, once you get more Khador, you'll never notice it because you'll rarely ever use MoW.

Nuts, can't run all jacks, can't run MoW, beginning to wonder what the hell you can run that's khador and not the deathstar.

IFP
Kayazy
Rifle Corps
Uhlans
Greylords
Great Bears
Greylords on horses
Doom Reavers

So none of the models I got into War machine to play are strictly speaking "Good".

Fortunately, with Warmachine when ever the community says something isn't good 99% of the time its really just that that thing isn't the best option overall. Its usually still a viable choice.


Man-o-wars have a problem in that they are expensive, want to be close together, and don't have high volume of attacks(a problem with most heavy infantry)

They also have the problem that they are actually pretty fragile. It still usually only takes a single good smack from a jack or beast to put one of them in the dirt. Their armor isn't high enough to matter. A jack punching a Man-o-war or a Winterguard is still going to kill the guy he hits. The difference is the Winterguard is cheaper, harder to hit, and might have Tough.

Heavy Infantry in general have this same problem. They're durable against the same stuff used to kill light infantry, but they're almost always countered with the same stuff used to kill Jacks and Beasts. things which they do not stand up to any better than their one wound brethren.


You can still go for an armor skew list which runs a bunch of Man-o-wars and some heavy armored jacks. This will bring their effectiveness up a notch. Your opponent's anti-infantry tech will likely falter against the Man-o-wars because of their higher armor and he won't have brought enough armor cracking to deal with it.

 Grey Templar wrote:

You can still go for an armor skew list which runs a bunch of Man-o-wars and some heavy armored jacks. This will bring their effectiveness up a notch. Your opponent's anti-infantry tech will likely falter against the Man-o-wars because of their higher armor and he won't have brought enough armor cracking to deal with it.

Maybe. I have done some HORRIBLE things with Circle to Jin's erstwhile ManOWar lists. Many of the things that deal well with lesser infantry (Chain Lightning, Warpathing Stalkers, Blood Trackers) put pretty big dents in MoW's, if not kill them outright. Usually things that target light infantry have high volume of fire, and two-three shots vs MoW work pretty well too.

 Wehrkind wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

You can still go for an armor skew list which runs a bunch of Man-o-wars and some heavy armored jacks. This will bring their effectiveness up a notch. Your opponent's anti-infantry tech will likely falter against the Man-o-wars because of their higher armor and he won't have brought enough armor cracking to deal with it.

Maybe. I have done some HORRIBLE things with Circle to Jin's erstwhile ManOWar lists. Many of the things that deal well with lesser infantry (Chain Lightning, Warpathing Stalkers, Blood Trackers) put pretty big dents in MoW's, if not kill them outright. Usually things that target light infantry have high volume of fire, and two-three shots vs MoW work pretty well too.

Shocktroopers are ARM 17 / 21 in Shield Wall, how do you even dent them with Chain Lightning?

Same thing for Bloodtrackers, even if they prey the Shocktroopers they are P+S 11 with 3 dice vs ARM 21, you can spike a few dice to do a couple of damage points, but they are hardly what I would call effective against ARM 21 troops.

Warpathing Stalkers just kill everything in their path so no questions there!

PhantomViper wrote:


Shocktroopers are ARM 17 / 21 in Shield Wall, how do you even dent them with Chain Lightning?

Same thing for Bloodtrackers, even if they prey the Shocktroopers they are P+S 11 with 3 dice vs ARM 21, you can spike a few dice to do a couple of damage points, but they are hardly what I would call effective against ARM 21 troops.

Warpathing Stalkers just kill everything in their path so no questions there!

I have 10 BT's, 11 with Nuala (who is usually with them). If the ShockTroopers are shield walled, they didn't run or charge, so chances are I can aim (and really, they are easy to hit without it.) If they were preyed, I am at dice -10, which is just a hair below what 3 dice average. If they are walled in a line, you shoot the one in the middle, and with a little luck 2-5 shots drop him. Then shoot the other one in the middle, and a little luck drops him. Really, it shouldn't take all 11 shot to kill two, but it sometimes does. Even if I am left only killing 1, that's fine too. Next up is Krugs, who shoots the either the wounded one in the middle with his Pow 13, maybe boosting if you really need him dead. Then bounces a Pow 10 into his neighbor. Maybe does a point, maybe not. Hopefully you now have 3 ST's about 1.5 inches away from each other, and fire off a chain lightning. Again, dice -7 on 2 dice, you are about as likely as not to get a little extra damage out there, and likely will kill another if your BTs had decent rolls.
Average case, you have 2-3 beat up Shock Troopers staring at 11 Def 14 stealthed girls ~5-7 inches away. The next round won't go well for them, even assuming you don't have anything else to put towards dropping them.

Now, a clever opponent might shieldwall in a triangle pattern so you have to kill 2 STs to get them out of shield wall. The downside for the Khador player here is that their footprint is small, and BTs are sp 7. Trotting around them is not too hard if they are at all close, meaning the origin of the shots are from behind, so no shieldwall. Plus clustered STs like that are also fodder for a Lightning Tendriled feral or stalker with sprint and warped for Str.

Oh, and also if you are feeling froggy you can teleport a stone or a gallows grove behind the ST line for that "I am shooting you in the back with LIGHTNING!" lols too.

Yea, I am dedicating my caster and a 10 point unit to crippling the STs in that turn, but they cost what, 11 points? And their ability to retaliate against those trackers is negligible. Kill 3 1 point models, that's fine. Not to mention the fact I likely wouldn't even bother to kill the STs until I need to take a zone or a flag (poor slow bastards that they are :( ) Plus I still have ~35 points of angry armor cracking beasts to help deal with whatever else is out there.
And of course Demo Corps and the ones with the guns and chainsaws are even easier to splat. like this.
(Blood Weavers are also super mean vs STs with pKrugs, but I don't take them as much as I would like. Best unit that never makes it into my lists :( )

Now, I don't really know how they fare against other factions.I only play Circle and a Fiona "I can shoot you from anywhere" list, so I haven't see all of what MoW can do. But Circle at least is SO good at mulching infantry when it feels like it that MoW are in a really bad spot.

Really dislike both the material and the style. The cryx and khador jacks made a lateral move, but I feel the Cygnar heavies and TB beasts in general look terrible compared to their metal counterparts.

The material is a serious pain- in their line and others, it's not a matter of casting but of not holding crisp edges and being a royal pain to clean.

I didn't ragequit, but I did notice that my purchase of PP minis drastically decreased with the increase of plastic kits- it certainly deters me from buying their stuff.

 Wehrkind wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:


Shocktroopers are ARM 17 / 21 in Shield Wall, how do you even dent them with Chain Lightning?

Same thing for Bloodtrackers, even if they prey the Shocktroopers they are P+S 11 with 3 dice vs ARM 21, you can spike a few dice to do a couple of damage points, but they are hardly what I would call effective against ARM 21 troops.

Warpathing Stalkers just kill everything in their path so no questions there!

I have 10 BT's, 11 with Nuala (who is usually with them). If the ShockTroopers are shield walled, they didn't run or charge, so chances are I can aim (and really, they are easy to hit without it.) If they were preyed, I am at dice -10, which is just a hair below what 3 dice average. If they are walled in a line, you shoot the one in the middle, and with a little luck 2-5 shots drop him. Then shoot the other one in the middle, and a little luck drops him. Really, it shouldn't take all 11 shot to kill two, but it sometimes does. Even if I am left only killing 1, that's fine too. Next up is Krugs, who shoots the either the wounded one in the middle with his Pow 13, maybe boosting if you really need him dead. Then bounces a Pow 10 into his neighbor. Maybe does a point, maybe not. Hopefully you now have 3 ST's about 1.5 inches away from each other, and fire off a chain lightning. Again, dice -7 on 2 dice, you are about as likely as not to get a little extra damage out there, and likely will kill another if your BTs had decent rolls.
Average case, you have 2-3 beat up Shock Troopers staring at 11 Def 14 stealthed girls ~5-7 inches away. The next round won't go well for them, even assuming you don't have anything else to put towards dropping them.

Shocktroopers have 8 wounds each so, you are counting on getting above average rolls on every single one of your attacks for your "average case". On average a full unit of BTs + Nuala shouldn't even kill a single Shield Walled Shocktrooper.

 Wehrkind wrote:

Now, a clever opponent might shieldwall in a triangle pattern so you have to kill 2 STs to get them out of shield wall. The downside for the Khador player here is that their footprint is small, and BTs are sp 7. Trotting around them is not too hard if they are at all close, meaning the origin of the shots are from behind, so no shieldwall. Plus clustered STs like that are also fodder for a Lightning Tendriled feral or stalker with sprint and warped for Str.

Oh, and also if you are feeling froggy you can teleport a stone or a gallows grove behind the ST line for that "I am shooting you in the back with LIGHTNING!" lols too.

And Shocktroopers with the new Kovnik have a MOV of 6" and have reach. Also unboosted POW 10's shouldn't make a single wound on a Shocktrooper even when he is not in Shield Wall. Even a Stalker that warped for strength will need to boost damage to reliably kill a MoW in one hit...

 Wehrkind wrote:

Yea, I am dedicating my caster and a 10 point unit to crippling the STs in that turn, but they cost what, 11 points? And their ability to retaliate against those trackers is negligible. Kill 3 1 point models, that's fine. Not to mention the fact I likely wouldn't even bother to kill the STs until I need to take a zone or a flag (poor slow bastards that they are :( ) Plus I still have ~35 points of angry armor cracking beasts to help deal with whatever else is out there.
And of course Demo Corps and the ones with the guns and chainsaws are even easier to splat. like this.
(Blood Weavers are also super mean vs STs with pKrugs, but I don't take them as much as I would like. Best unit that never makes it into my lists :( )

Now, I don't really know how they fare against other factions.I only play Circle and a Fiona "I can shoot you from anywhere" list, so I haven't see all of what MoW can do. But Circle at least is SO good at mulching infantry when it feels like it that MoW are in a really bad spot.

What bothers me is that your whole scenario not only counts on you having WAY above average rolls, but also on your opponent being completely incompetent and presenting you with an unsupported unit of Shocktroopers for you to kill with apparently your whole army. Have you actually faced them or is this all an exercise in theorymachine?

Except its actually a poor choice to send the Bloodtrackers after the Man-o-wars. I'd personally send a Primal'd Stalker yo-yo at them. They cost as much as a jack and are countered the same way.

You don't need way above average rolls to kill 1- 2 STs with 11 Bloodtrackers. 11 shots, with damage teetering on average (above average, damage, below 0) about half are going to do damage. If 5 do damage they only need 2-4 on those rolls per above average roll to kill. I am not assuming the hard 6 6 6 to get the kill, I am assuming that they chip away, and leave the STs short a man or two. I am not saying you one round the unit, I am saying you tear chunks out of them, and laugh at the few attacks they send back.
I dunno, maybe you haven't dealt with Blood Trackers much, but they can chew through Juggernauts given enough time. A full unit can reliably put 5-14 damage per turn to arm 20, assuming they all get to shoot and have Prey up. Pow 11 weapon master is pretty solid. Though I agree it can be spikey. Sometimes they don't do much, sometimes they mercilessly slaughter, depending on dice. But the volume of fire helps even things out.

And the Kovnik is pretty cool, but an 8" threat radius does not scare Circle. A 6" move with shield wall is not in the least threatening. Now, Iron Flesh or Tough on the STs, that's annoying. But their speed is not going to get to the point that Blood Trackers are worried, and their attack output is pretty low. Hitting Def 14 is not easy for STs, at least not easy enough to make up for the low volume of attacks.

And I am not sending my whole army at them. I am using my caster who shoots and slings spells, and a 10 point unit. If I need to kill them in a single turn, sure, I throw a warpwolf in there after knocking out a model or two to deny shield wall, then that beast shreds them.

Grey Templar is right that Bloodtrackers are not the ideal unit to deal with them, but since I use BTs as a jamming unit often, they are usually in a position to chip into that first line. Remember, the point of this was that STs can get ripped up by the same stuff that deals with light infantry. The effectiveness per shot goes down, but the volume of fire allows for them to be whittled down to the point that their retaliation is less than impressive, and then they get killed the next turn.

And to clarify, like I said before, I have faced MoW a LOT. Turns out they get killed pretty well by the stuff Circle usually takes anyway.

And pow11 weapon master is still more than capable of doing some damage. It will still cause damage about half the time even while in Shield Wall(assuming Prey). Meanwhile the Man-o-wars will be flailing about in a rather undignified manner if they attempt to hit back. They'll only be hitting the Trackers on 7s in melee, and you can forget about using their shield guns to any great effect.

You don't use MoW to kill Bloodtrackers, in fact you don't use MoW to kill anything! MoW are a front line tarpit unit, they are used to soak up damage and contest / score objectives. if they kill something in the process that is just a bonus.

You just spent your BT + Nuala activation to kill 1 MoW and now are probably in range of boosted Death Star sprays, or a S+P Greylords horsemen spray, and THOSE kill BTs in droves.

I don't know, if you say that you routinely face and destroy MoW I have no reason to doubt anything that you say, but to me it just seems that what you are describing is a problem in your opponents tactics and not a problem with the unit itself...

I think it has been a little too long since we started this point, PhantomViper. Recall that the original contention was that light infantry was going to be replaced by some armor skew MoW and jack lists. My point was that MoW unfortunately still die to the same things that slaughter light infantry, just slower, and without much retaliation. No one here is saying that Winter Guard death star isn't better! (Though pKrugs still laughs at it.)

Another way to look at the problem is to consider Circle's skinwalkers. They are a little faster than MoW, and a little lighter armored, but basically did the same thing: sit on a shelf. Then they got a UA that gives them an additional attack, and the ability to heal themselves when they kill, and NOW they are good. If MoW could punch with their shield instead of shooting, or swing twice with their axes, they would be better. As it stands, they mostly just sit there and contest/score which can be done better by cheaper things.

 Wehrkind wrote:
I think it has been a little too long since we started this point, PhantomViper. Recall that the original contention was that light infantry was going to be replaced by some armor skew MoW and jack lists. My point was that MoW unfortunately still die to the same things that slaughter light infantry, just slower, and without much retaliation. No one here is saying that Winter Guard death star isn't better! (Though pKrugs still laughs at it.)

Another way to look at the problem is to consider Circle's skinwalkers. They are a little faster than MoW, and a little lighter armored, but basically did the same thing: sit on a shelf. Then they got a UA that gives them an additional attack, and the ability to heal themselves when they kill, and NOW they are good. If MoW could punch with their shield instead of shooting, or swing twice with their axes, they would be better. As it stands, they mostly just sit there and contest/score which can be done better by cheaper things.

And I contest the point that they die to the same things that kill light infantry, my point exactly is that pKrueger may (and does) laugh at the Death Star but he doesn't accomplish much vs the MoWs, and apart from unpredictable dice spikes, using an 10 pt unit to kill 1 MoW a turn (if even that), isn't an effective way of dealing with them.

Khador is currently suffering from the problem that their main tarpit units relied on a DEF skew, but the meta has advanced to a point where this is much less viable now than it was 1 or 2 years ago. IMO (and a few local Khador players have had success with this), the MoW can be used as an ARM skew to contest objectives and take the brunt of the enemy's alfa-strike, a role that has been even strengthened with the release of the Kovnik. What cheaper thing can accomplish the same role?

Skinwalkers are ARM 16, they are a world apart from ARM 21, you are comparing apples with oranges (not to mention comparing units from two difference factions which is in and of itself a pretty useless thing).

Ok. Have fun.

 Wehrkind wrote:
Ok. Have fun.

Thanks, you too.

PhantomViper wrote:

Skinwalkers are ARM 16, they are a world apart from ARM 21, you are comparing apples with oranges (not to mention comparing units from two difference factions which is in and of itself a pretty useless thing).

I would contest the allegation that they're non-analogous.

Firstly, they're both heavy infantry. They're similarly armed, similarly STAT'd (with the Skinwalkers being Faster and having better Def), and both are Fearless and have CMA. In that respect, they're very similar.

You argue that Skinwalkers are only ARM16, hence totally different from the ARM21 of the MoW:ST. While I agree that ARM21 is a great leap above ARM16, that situation occurs only when the MoW receive a Shield Wall order, which clearly impedes their speed on the tabletop. Outside of that, they're ARM17/16. Not exactly worlds apart. Not to mention that Skinwalkers get an ARM boost while engaged. This isn't quite the same bonus as Shield Wall, but at the same time, it's not contingent on having front arc and being in B2B with friendly models. They serve similar (but necessarily identical) roles in their respective armies.


I'm not exactly sure how you think they're not comparable?