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@Martel732
Are you aware of the title to this thread; "SM Bikes vs WSerpent Spam and Tau Gunline? Any experience?" Why would any post in this thread involve any other unit from SM codex other than bikes?

There are actually a large number of good units. The major reason that you haven't heard about them yet is that the codex is still relatively new. It is much like the wraithknight which for 2 months after being released had the majority of the internet saying it was "garbage".

@Thread
SM bikes in general are fantastic. The two big winners are the White Scars with all their buffs to bikers and Iron Hands where the FnP and IWND on their eternal shield chapter master can suddenly make command squads almost invulnerable.

I have also been toying around with a DA bike army with Iron Hands Allies (stormraven and Eternal CM). This has been giving some good results as the CM can tank for the banner unit and the stormraven handles helldrakes.

Some interesting things I have nother about biker armies is that to make them truly great they require several elements to support them. 1) AA to have some recourse against helldrakes and to have some recourse to necron scoring (stormraven/stormtalon), 2) something to barrage snipe heralds/ethereals and cause enemies to spread out (TFC), and 3) mobile melta to pop important tanks and force serpents to keep their shields up or die (I like LotD, stormravens work and melta in bike units can work but not having grav guns hurts)

The 4th I am starting to get more convinced of is a tanking 2+/3++ save. This lets you take a few shots from helldrakes or supported riptides and keep a key unit alive. I like IH allies for my WS primary to get the Eternal CM which is a force in and off himself. A white scars version can be just as good for the Hit and Run ability to bounce around combats.

 Lord Yayula wrote:
I don't play loyalist scum, but I do however play a big CSM nurgle bike squad with a sorcerer on bike, so it is more less the same strats, the WSerpents aren't really that much of a problem there.

How do you figure? One has T6. The other has T5, ATSKNF, +1 to Jink, S5 HoW, immunity to terrain, is Scoring, and has access to Grav. There's no comparison, especially since the loyalists are also cheaper.

 ansacs wrote:
@Martel732
Are you aware of the title to this thread; "SM Bikes vs WSerpent Spam and Tau Gunline? Any experience?" Why would any post in this thread involve any other unit from SM codex other than bikes?

There are actually a large number of good units. The major reason that you haven't heard about them yet is that the codex is still relatively new. It is much like the wraithknight which for 2 months after being released had the majority of the internet saying it was "garbage".

@Thread
SM bikes in general are fantastic. The two big winners are the White Scars with all their buffs to bikers and Iron Hands where the FnP and IWND on their eternal shield chapter master can suddenly make command squads almost invulnerable.

I have also been toying around with a DA bike army with Iron Hands Allies (stormraven and Eternal CM). This has been giving some good results as the CM can tank for the banner unit and the stormraven handles helldrakes.

Some interesting things I have nother about biker armies is that to make them truly great they require several elements to support them. 1) AA to have some recourse against helldrakes and to have some recourse to necron scoring (stormraven/stormtalon), 2) something to barrage snipe heralds/ethereals and cause enemies to spread out (TFC), and 3) mobile melta to pop important tanks and force serpents to keep their shields up or die (I like LotD, stormravens work and melta in bike units can work but not having grav guns hurts)

The 4th I am starting to get more convinced of is a tanking 2+/3++ save. This lets you take a few shots from helldrakes or supported riptides and keep a key unit alive. I like IH allies for my WS primary to get the Eternal CM which is a force in and off himself. A white scars version can be just as good for the Hit and Run ability to bounce around combats.

Fair enough. I've got a list drawn up now with 3 X 5 biker squads led by IH captain with EW shield, artificer, etc. It also involves a drop ironclad dread and drop dev cents. It also drops all BA allies and is all Iron Hands. I'll field it as soon as I get the stormtalons that are also in the list.

Sounds interesting. Though have you thought of taking a drop frag dread, stormtalon, baal predator, and biker libby from the BA as allies? It could be pretty nasty. With a hyper aggressive list the relative fragility of the BA would not matter as much.

I was trying to get the point across to Martel in another thread that White Scars were the bane of Serpent Spam

But I did want to ask if anyone playing bike armies have actually played a Serpent Spam list were the guy altered his tactics?

Like did the guy playing Serpent Span castle up while reserving half his army to draw you to one side of the board. Then when the other half came on, blow past your bikes?

Also have you run into Serpent Spam where the guy actually deployed his contents for a speed bump?

Not trying to down anyone, it just seems to me that White Scars are a good counter to Serpent Spam, but I have yet to see a creative Serpent Spam general when facing bike armies.

BA don't get Stormtalons. Dual heavy flamer from the ironclad do pretty much the same thing as BA frag dread. Plus I don't think that IH can use BA locator beacon.

Also, that would require a BA HQ tax.

@Martel
Sorry, I meant stormraven (d'oh) and the libby isn't really a tax as he gets the S10 melee attack power. The only reason that isn't ace in the BA dex is the relatively limited mobility (when on foot or jump pack) and the fragility/cost of the squads he can run with (SM biker squads are not costly and Shield Eternal CM can make any squad a pain to kill).

The dread can fill your troops tax for you (if he can't then blender dread) either way in a drop pod.

@x13rads
As a serpent player I deploy my guys at the front line so you cannot scout forward as much. I will then move backwards turn 1 and shoot my shields accepting my loses turn 2 when you DS/melta some of my serpents. The contents of the killed serpents move forward to act as chaff and kill whatever killed their serpents while the other serpents move behind the chaff and fire their shields again. I usually DS my spiders against biker/MTO style armies so they can split the attack. The spiders usually kill support; TFC usually. The bikers kill my chaff (I take 5 man Dire avengers units so they evaporate as soon as they get charged). I have been rotating different HQ choices and trying out wraithguard so this changes things but this is the general strategy. The farseer if I take one gets deployed once I absorb some of the turn 1 momentum. Not sure if that helps.

Keep in mind I haven't built my wraithknight yet...yeah I need to get it finished. I think I will reserve him against WS and try letting him DS in to the opponent's backfield at first. It will probably end up with me walking him on.

BTW it is actually better for me if the opponent gets first turn or seizes the initiative as then he cannot charge me and the grav shooting is not any more scary going first. The 3+ save also is already better than the 4+ jink.

When I take D-cannon+buff commander or dark reapers it gets bloody really really fast. Though with the grav guns I really need a ADL/etc. for them to survive.

Another interesting thing is that ruins are the worst enemy of this list. If you can get 3 floor ruins with area terrain you will find that the unit inside it becomes almost invulnerable unless the opponent brought some LotD. Or something other than their grav and TFC.

 Lobukia wrote:
Marines

Good:
Chapter Master
Libby - Disagreed. No divination, no power fields (Dark Angels) means they are rolling on what? Telepathy? The worst of the marine librarians pretty much.
MotF - ....you can't be serious.
Most Special Characters Except Calgar, Sicarius, Cassius, Helbrecht, Grimaldus and the Emporer's chump....Not sure why you'd use Lysander in a world where the eternal shield exists either. Tiggy is good, and the rest are passable in highly specific lists I suppose
Command Squads Not sure they are better than their non-command squad options really. Grav bikers are talked up a lot, but I think the math shows that normal bike squads with grav weapons have a better grav to point ratio. Foot and melee squads aren't worth talking about.
Honour Guard
Sternguard Not sold on them personally. Why use them when you can have more bikes? If combi-weapons were 5 points still, I'd give them a passing grade, barely, but the special ammo is NOT worth 8 points per model over tactical marines, and losing scoring in the process.
Legion of the Danged In a Vulkan list, I'd say they are better than Sternies as a drop melta-nuke....but otherwise too expensive for their damage output.
(Termies and Vanguard are situational at best, but might be good) Junk all around, don't even try to rationalize these guys.
Crusader Squads
Tacticals Tacticals are not "good". Both their damage output and staying power is nothing to write home about for their points cost. In a good/meh/bad rating system, I'd rate them as meh. There's a reason bikes are the mainstay troop.
Scouts Snipers + cloaks on an objective in cover is the only thing close to decent here.
StormTalons
StormRavens
Attack Bikes
Bike Squads
Landspeeders Nothing says amazing like a 60+ point AV10 HP2 vehicle with largely short ranged weapons. These are dead in a world were bikes, attack bikes and Storm Talons also exist.
(Assault marines, maybe) HELLLL no. Dark Angel ASM are passable in a "triple flamer suicide pod unit" loadout, but vanilla cannot even match THAT.
Vindicator Honestly, I don't think these are good either. Personal experience has shown them to be very hit or miss, and inconsistency is death in a competitive list.
Stalker/hunter Too niche to take in an all comers list IMO, and not even super good at their optimal role. IMO you should be getting your anti-air from Hyperios missiles and Storm Talons/Ravens. I could see using Stalkers if for some reason you weren't maxxed out on heavy support and had a handful of points left to fill.
Dev Cents
Devastators Staying power to points ratio is poor. Only remotely viable for Imperial Fists, and only just barely.
Thunderfires
(Landraiders can work and Whirlwinds too) Pass on both. Thunderfires wreck whirlwinds, and Land Raiders cannot stand up in the meta these days IMO.

Half of the units you list as "good", I would rate as "meh". Take all comer tournament level units have to be super solid and consistent 24/7.

We aren't even mentioning, Chaplains, dreads, cent assault squads, any terminators, scout bikers or predators either....most of which also stink.

As is usual, one list will float to the top of the codex at any given time, and ATM that list is WS + bikes.

Well, I can't put the IH cent devs in the BA Stormraven, either. Plus, it pains me to cough up 100 pts for a BA libby when a level 2 libby is now 90 pts for other marines.

Fair enough. I will be looking at your list thread tonight when I get home. BTW you might want to list point limit at the beginning of your list.

Oh, yeah, I should make one of those, lol. I'm in the lab. I'll put it up when I get home and have a codex.

 ansacs wrote:
@Martel
Sorry, I meant stormraven (d'oh) and the libby isn't really a tax as he gets the S10 melee attack power. The only reason that isn't ace in the BA dex is the relatively limited mobility (when on foot or jump pack) and the fragility/cost of the squads he can run with (SM biker squads are not costly and Shield Eternal CM can make any squad a pain to kill).

The dread can fill your troops tax for you (if he can't then blender dread) either way in a drop pod.

@x13rads
As a serpent player I deploy my guys at the front line so you cannot scout forward as much. I will then move backwards turn 1 and shoot my shields accepting my loses turn 2 when you DS/melta some of my serpents. The contents of the killed serpents move forward to act as chaff and kill whatever killed their serpents while the other serpents move behind the chaff and fire their shields again. I usually DS my spiders against biker/MTO style armies so they can split the attack. The spiders usually kill support; TFC usually. The bikers kill my chaff (I take 5 man Dire avengers units so they evaporate as soon as they get charged). I have been rotating different HQ choices and trying out wraithguard so this changes things but this is the general strategy. The farseer if I take one gets deployed once I absorb some of the turn 1 momentum. Not sure if that helps.

Keep in mind I haven't built my wraithknight yet...yeah I need to get it finished. I think I will reserve him against WS and try letting him DS in to the opponent's backfield at first. It will probably end up with me walking him on.

BTW it is actually better for me if the opponent gets first turn or seizes the initiative as then he cannot charge me and the grav shooting is not any more scary going first. The 3+ save also is already better than the 4+ jink.

When I take D-cannon+buff commander or dark reapers it gets bloody really really fast. Though with the grav guns I really need a ADL/etc. for them to survive.

Another interesting thing is that ruins are the worst enemy of this list. If you can get 3 floor ruins with area terrain you will find that the unit inside it becomes almost invulnerable unless the opponent brought some LotD. Or something other than their grav and TFC.

A Wraithknight (or two, or three Wraithknights) changes the White Scar vs Serpent matchup completely. You definitely shouldn't be reserving them, that's precisely what the White Scars want. It lets them have free reign zerging into Serpents for at least 3 turns, and you gain nothing in return- given their mobility White Scars don't really have a 'backfield' to exploit. However if you put two Wraithknights in cover in line with your Serpents then you present serious issues for the Bikes, sure they can Grav Gun down the Wraithknights, but wounding on 3's with a 4+ or 5+ cover save means they really have to focus to do it - taking down both in a single turn is actually pretty tough. If they shoot the Serpents or even better shooting the WK's and don't finish them off then you can make a huge mess with the WK's, they will reliably kill off a Bike squad in a couple of rounds of combat and once they hit combat Marines don't have much that can deal with them. It also means that if you have first turn he can't Scout forward (which lets you torrent him for two turns before the Grav Guns can shoot), because again the WK's will be straight into him (there is nothing stopping you assaulting him turn 1) and there is the ever present threat of seizing that can come into play as well.

A Wraithknight with a 5+ cover takes a little more than 2 bike squads with combi-grav + 2x grav-gun. Considering my average bike list can kill two wraithknights turn 1 I pretty much consider starting a WK on the board a death sentence for it.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/562022.page

Add to this the fact that the shooting of the grav guns at waveserpents is very reliant on how grav weapons interact with cover saves. If they ignore cover on vehicles then they are pretty decent. If they don't then they are pretty bad. I tend to play under the constraint that the serpents get cover (as the alternative different interaction between vehicles vs other models would be a unique circumstance). You can see why I consider killing a WK as I move up in preparation to assault the serpent turn 2 to be no sacrifice at all.

Worry not, dear Tau/Eldar players. With the new Nids/Orks your worries will disappear and you will reign again. The hordes will invalidate these Grav Scars lists. Your armies won't be affected.

@Naw
Not really. The SM biker lists may have to change some of the grav to flamers but otherwise the mobility and the krak grenades are the real threat to serpents not the grav. Tau can be trounced just fine with 3 squads of grav versus 4. Not to mention most of the white scars lists seem to run 2 TFC anyways.

What many people dont seem to grasp is that bikers are just a great troop for marines, yiu dont have to just spam them. You can support them with pretty much anything, allies included. Nids and orks wont be able to nullify all the things that make bikers good troops.

 Illumini wrote:
What many people dont seem to grasp is that bikers are just a great troop for marines, yiu dont have to just spam them. You can support them with pretty much anything, allies included. Nids and orks wont be able to nullify all the things that make bikers good troops.

Nids will be more worried by the 3 thunderfire cannons than the bikes ... The bikes will be for sniping out MCs.

Agreed, even with new Nids, Guard and Orks on the horizon I highly doubt the effectiveness of Bikes will go down, as mentioned just a changeup in the makeup of special weapons or even the addition of other units to the army would solve the issue. There is a White Scars player at my store who runs x2 Whirlwinds with his Bikes and this just WRECKS Tau Gunline armies, has the bikes focus on the Suits, Broadsides and Riptides while the Whirlwinds focus on infantry. I could see this tactic becomming very common when the new horde armies drop, also armies like Nids whill still have a large number of MC's to choose from.

I've had good luck with threatening wave serpents with bikes. As mentioned support elements help a lot. You will lose a lot on the way there, but it only take a few krak gernades and grav guns to do the job.