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rigeld2 wrote:
He's not getting benefits from a cover save he isn't taking. At all.

And don't worry - it's cool to assume someone is a poor player because they're discussing rules. Totally a valid method of debate. (I know it's hard to get it from text, but that's sarcasm.)

If you're having to bend rules for pseudo-strategic advantages, then yes I begin to assume your ability lies in finding ways to break lists, or searching the internet for one, and rules lawyering rather than playing well. And it's not a method of debate, it was a statement. If you're taking a 2+ from GTG on a ruins save then you are using the area terrain, not the ruins save. You knew what I meant and are choosing to play at ignorance.

POKEYtheBIG wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
He's not getting benefits from a cover save he isn't taking. At all.

And don't worry - it's cool to assume someone is a poor player because they're discussing rules. Totally a valid method of debate. (I know it's hard to get it from text, but that's sarcasm.)

If you're having to bend rules for pseudo-strategic advantages, then yes I begin to assume your ability lies in finding ways to break lists, or searching the internet for one, and rules lawyering rather than playing well.

It can't be because this forum is for discussing rules. Never. The fact that you have to resort to ad hominems shows you have no rules basis for your argument.

And it's not a method of debate, it was a statement. If you're taking a 2+ from GTG on a ruins save then you are using the area terrain, not the ruins save. You knew what I meant and are choosing to play at ignorance.

Except there isn't a single rule tying the 2+ GTG to the area terrain save - only your assumption. You've insulted someone because they disagree with your interpretation in an attempt to prove your point. That's not very polite.

rigeld2 wrote:

Except there isn't a single rule tying the 2+ GTG to the area terrain save - only your assumption. You've insulted someone because they disagree with your interpretation in an attempt to prove your point. That's not very polite.

And it is your assumption that it apples to saves other than area terrain. Don't act offended when others get it how they give. The wording on p.91 has to be made much more specific before either of us can claim RAW as there is room for interpretation. So until then it is a matter of RAI in which I have presented plenty to support myself while others have just repeated themselves that there is nothing saying the +2 is restricted, same as if I just repeatedly stated there is nothing explicitly saying it applies to saves other than area terrain.

POKEYtheBIG wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Except there isn't a single rule tying the 2+ GTG to the area terrain save - only your assumption. You've insulted someone because they disagree with your interpretation in an attempt to prove your point. That's not very polite.

And it is your assumption that it apples to saves other than area terrain. Don't act offended when others get it how they give. The wording on p.91 has to be made much more specific before either of us can claim RAW as there is room for interpretation. So until then it is a matter of RAI in which I have presented plenty to support myself while others have just repeated themselves that there is nothing saying the +2 is restricted, same as if I just repeatedly stated there is nothing explicitly saying it applies to saves other than area terrain.

Get it how they give?
Where did he insult you, pray tell?

POKEYtheBIG wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Except there isn't a single rule tying the 2+ GTG to the area terrain save - only your assumption. You've insulted someone because they disagree with your interpretation in an attempt to prove your point. That's not very polite.

And it is your assumption that it apples to saves other than area terrain. Don't act offended when others get it how they give. The wording on p.91 has to be made much more specific before either of us can claim RAW as there is room for interpretation. So until then it is a matter of RAI in which I have presented plenty to support myself while others have just repeated themselves that there is nothing saying the +2 is restricted, same as if I just repeatedly stated there is nothing explicitly saying it applies to saves other than area terrain.

"plenty" would not be the word i would use for the support you have on RAI .

People are discussing this rule because there is a place to discuss, you can't just state you have upper hand because you have the upper hand.

With the abundance of stealth and shrouded giving bonus's, there is no need from a balance standpoint to need regular units to have a 2+ cover.

It undermines good armor saves, and gives advantage to armies who have long range ignore cover weapons.

There should not be an abundance of 2+ cover in the game.


If you dont care about balance then house rule the +2 for area terrain to stack with ruins.

While we're on the topic of houserules for balance, let's stop people from buying Aegis Defence Lines, because 2+ cover saves when going to ground are clearly considered OP judging by Eihnlazer's statement.

POKEYtheBIG wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
So he makes the same mistake you did of assuming you can and have to choose which terrain rules affect your models, how is this supposed to convince me?

As opposed to the mistake you're making assuming you get benefits from a cover save you are not taking, bending rules to your benefit to make up for subpar play on the table.

And now you are making the mistake of thinking that the GtG bonus is part of the cover save from area terrain, when it is an entirely separate rule.

Basic reading comprehension, learn it.

@ OP.

This is the last poll I could find on the subject
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/150/524589.page#5609019

this is a quote from another post on the same subject but spells it out very clear. I am paraphrasing it here.


"You are allowed to take the best save available. Note, the best save, not the best base and then modify it. IMO you take each save and work out its' final value.

Ruins 4+ if you GTG behind ruins +1 for a final total of 3+
Area terrain 5+ if you GTG +2 for a total of 3+

So the final result is 3+

Cheers

Andrew"

osirisx69 wrote:
this is a quote from another post on the same subject but spells it out very clear. I am paraphrasing it here.


"You are allowed to take the best save available. Note, the best save, not the best base and then modify it. IMO you take each save and work out its' final value.

Ruins 4+ if you GTG behind ruins +1 for a final total of 3+
Area terrain 5+ if you GTG +2 for a total of 3+

So the final result is 3+

Cheers

Andrew"

I love how people come in here and blatantly misrepresent the rules and then claim it's absolutely the only way it can possibly work.
In other words, "Cool story bro."

rigeld2 wrote:

osirisx69 wrote:
this is a quote from another post on the same subject but spells it out very clear. I am paraphrasing it here.


"You are allowed to take the best save available. Note, the best save, not the best base and then modify it. IMO you take each save and work out its' final value.

Ruins 4+ if you GTG behind ruins +1 for a final total of 3+
Area terrain 5+ if you GTG +2 for a total of 3+

So the final result is 3+

Cheers

Andrew"

I love how people come in here and blatantly misrepresent the rules and then claim it's absolutely the only way it can possibly work.
In other words, "Cool story bro."

I love how people come on here and blatantly break the rules by posting opinions about "other" posters, also how they don't add to the discussion with there passive aggress remarks. Like a back handed attack on other poster. Of course he is protected because he didn't name any names but he sure got his dig in didn't he!

As for my post it was a just a quote that matched perfectly to what people are saying is how the rules are run in most games

Good one.

Once again, taking a ruins cover save doesn't mean that you have ceased to be going to ground in area terrain. Rigeld is right in calling this a blatant misrepresentation of the rules.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Once again, taking a ruins cover save doesn't mean that you have ceased to be going to ground in area terrain. Rigeld is right in calling this a blatant misrepresentation of the rules.

Are you in ruins------> circle yes or no
Are you in area terrain-----> circle yes or no.
The ruins are ruins and the area terrain is area terrain. They are not the same. So the flow chart would look like this.

If you answered yes to ruins and gtg then you are +3 save.
If you answered no to ruins and you gtg then it is 6+ save.
If you answered yes to area terrain and gtg then its a 3+ save.
If you answered no to area terrain its a 6+ save.

This is paraphrasing flow chart from the BRB

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Once again, taking a ruins cover save doesn't mean that you have ceased to be going to ground in area terrain. Rigeld is right in calling this a blatant misrepresentation of the rules.

Nothing states that you ignore the fact that you are going to ground behind a ruin either which only grants a +1. Nothing in the BRB says that one rule supersedes the other. You make the choice on which you use but it comes out to 3+

POKEYtheBIG wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Once again, taking a ruins cover save doesn't mean that you have ceased to be going to ground in area terrain. Rigeld is right in calling this a blatant misrepresentation of the rules.

Nothing states that you ignore the fact that you are going to ground behind a ruin either which only grants a +1. Nothing in the BRB says that one rule supersedes the other. You make the choice on which you use but it comes out to 3+

This is the correct wording.

PrinceRaven just because Regron likes to say people are misrepresenting the rules doesn't mean he is right.

There is NO wording in the rule book that states you an area terrain is a 3+ save.

I think the disagreement here comes from whether go to ground granting an improvement to your cover save is a property of the cover or a general property.

Is that fair?

osirisx69 wrote:
I love how people come on here and blatantly break the rules by posting opinions about "other" posters, also how they don't add to the discussion with there passive aggress remarks. Like a back handed attack on other poster. Of course he is protected because he didn't name any names but he sure got his dig in didn't he!

Fine. I'll be more clear.
Your post quoted someone who blatantly misstated what the rules say.

As for my post it was a just a quote that matched perfectly to what people are saying is how the rules are run in most games

Which has nothing to do with what's actually written.
So coming in and saying that it, and I'll quote, "spells it out very clear" is factually incorrect. It doesn't clear anything up it just restates the same thing that's been said over and over in the thread.
So you added nothing and did so in a pompous "I'm right no matter what." way.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

osirisx69 wrote:

POKEYtheBIG wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Once again, taking a ruins cover save doesn't mean that you have ceased to be going to ground in area terrain. Rigeld is right in calling this a blatant misrepresentation of the rules.

Nothing states that you ignore the fact that you are going to ground behind a ruin either which only grants a +1. Nothing in the BRB says that one rule supersedes the other. You make the choice on which you use but it comes out to 3+

This is the correct wording.

PrinceRaven just because Regron likes to say people are misrepresenting the rules doesn't mean he is right.

There is NO wording in the rule book that states you an area terrain is a 3+ save.

Please, quote the rule that limits GTG in area terrain to the area terrain cover save. You'd be the first.
Stating that it only applies to the area terrain cover save and that that's somehow "clear" from the rules is blatantly misstating what the rules actually say.

rigeld2 wrote:

osirisx69 wrote:
I love how people come on here and blatantly break the rules by posting opinions about "other" posters, also how they don't add to the discussion with there passive aggress remarks. Like a back handed attack on other poster. Of course he is protected because he didn't name any names but he sure got his dig in didn't he!

Fine. I'll be more clear.
Your post quoted someone who blatantly misstated what the rules say.

As for my post it was a just a quote that matched perfectly to what people are saying is how the rules are run in most games

Which has nothing to do with what's actually written.
So coming in and saying that it, and I'll quote, "spells it out very clear" is factually incorrect. It doesn't clear anything up it just restates the same thing that's been said over and over in the thread.
So you added nothing and did so in a pompous "I'm right no matter what." way.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

osirisx69 wrote:

POKEYtheBIG wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Once again, taking a ruins cover save doesn't mean that you have ceased to be going to ground in area terrain. Rigeld is right in calling this a blatant misrepresentation of the rules.

Nothing states that you ignore the fact that you are going to ground behind a ruin either which only grants a +1. Nothing in the BRB says that one rule supersedes the other. You make the choice on which you use but it comes out to 3+

This is the correct wording.

PrinceRaven just because Regron likes to say people are misrepresenting the rules doesn't mean he is right.

There is NO wording in the rule book that states you an area terrain is a 3+ save.

Please, quote the rule that limits GTG in area terrain to the area terrain cover save. You'd be the first.
Stating that it only applies to the area terrain cover save and that that's somehow "clear" from the rules is blatantly misstating what the rules actually say.

Do you ignore your own pomp, "cool story bro." Osiris was just presenting his side, anything beyond the statement of belief was perceived.

POKEYtheBIG wrote:
Do you ignore your own pomp, "cool story bro." Osiris was just presenting his side, anything beyond the statement of belief was perceived.

He said it "spells it out very clear". That's not presenting his opinion, that's stating that the rules are clear.
They're demonstrably not - unless you misstate the rules.

rigeld2 wrote:

osirisx69 wrote:
I love how people come on here and blatantly break the rules by posting opinions about "other" posters, also how they don't add to the discussion with there passive aggress remarks. Like a back handed attack on other poster. Of course he is protected because he didn't name any names but he sure got his dig in didn't he!

Fine. I'll be more clear.
Your post quoted someone who blatantly misstated what the rules say.

As for my post it was a just a quote that matched perfectly to what people are saying is how the rules are run in most games

Which has nothing to do with what's actually written.
So coming in and saying that it, and I'll quote, "spells it out very clear" is factually incorrect. It doesn't clear anything up it just restates the same thing that's been said over and over in the thread.
So you added nothing and did so in a pompous "I'm right no matter what." way.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

osirisx69 wrote:

POKEYtheBIG wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Once again, taking a ruins cover save doesn't mean that you have ceased to be going to ground in area terrain. Rigeld is right in calling this a blatant misrepresentation of the rules.

Nothing states that you ignore the fact that you are going to ground behind a ruin either which only grants a +1. Nothing in the BRB says that one rule supersedes the other. You make the choice on which you use but it comes out to 3+

This is the correct wording.

PrinceRaven just because Regron likes to say people are misrepresenting the rules doesn't mean he is right.

There is NO wording in the rule book that states you an area terrain is a 3+ save.

Please, quote the rule that limits GTG in area terrain to the area terrain cover save. You'd be the first.
Stating that it only applies to the area terrain cover save and that that's somehow "clear" from the rules is blatantly misstating what the rules actually say.

You have not shown where it applies to ruins. Ruins rule states you get a +1. If you are using the ruins cover save you use the rules for ruins; your area terrain never comes into play except for you that are trying to rule lawyer for an advantage.

rigeld2 wrote:

osirisx69 wrote:
I love how people come on here and blatantly break the rules by posting opinions about "other" posters, also how they don't add to the discussion with there passive aggress remarks. Like a back handed attack on other poster. Of course he is protected because he didn't name any names but he sure got his dig in didn't he!

Fine. I'll be more clear.
Your post quoted someone who blatantly misstated what the rules say.

As for my post it was a just a quote that matched perfectly to what people are saying is how the rules are run in most games

Which has nothing to do with what's actually written.
So coming in and saying that it, and I'll quote, "spells it out very clear" is factually incorrect. It doesn't clear anything up it just restates the same thing that's been said over and over in the thread.
So you added nothing and did so in a pompous "I'm right no matter what." way.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

osirisx69 wrote:

POKEYtheBIG wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Once again, taking a ruins cover save doesn't mean that you have ceased to be going to ground in area terrain. Rigeld is right in calling this a blatant misrepresentation of the rules.

Nothing states that you ignore the fact that you are going to ground behind a ruin either which only grants a +1. Nothing in the BRB says that one rule supersedes the other. You make the choice on which you use but it comes out to 3+

This is the correct wording.

PrinceRaven just because Regron likes to say people are misrepresenting the rules doesn't mean he is right.

There is NO wording in the rule book that states you an area terrain is a 3+ save.

Please, quote the rule that limits GTG in area terrain to the area terrain cover save. You'd be the first.
Stating that it only applies to the area terrain cover save and that that's somehow "clear" from the rules is blatantly misstating what the rules actually say.

LMAO asking a person to quote a rule that YOU completely made up is asinine. The rule states going to ground grants +1 to your cover save unless you are in area terrain and then its +2.

"It is a 3+ cover save, either way you go.

The model has 2 separate cover saves, a 5+ from area and 4+ from Ruins.

When you GTG, the Area Terrain is improved by 2 and the Ruin Save is improved by 1, both becoming 3+ saves. Cover saves don't overwrite each other, they both exist and you take the best. "

Paraphrasing

POKEYtheBIG wrote:
You have not shown where it applies to ruins. Ruins rule states you get a +1. If you are using the ruins cover save you use the rules for ruins; your area terrain never comes into play except for you that are trying to rule lawyer for an advantage.

Where does it say that in the ruins rules? I can't find it (due to my own incompetence) any chance you could give me a reference?

POKEYtheBIG wrote:
You have not shown where it applies to ruins. Ruins rule states you get a +1.

Citation required. You mean the general GTG rules? That's fair.
And what do the Area Terrain GTG rules modify? Oh...

If you are using the ruins cover save you use the rules for ruins; your area terrain never comes into play except for you that are trying to rule lawyer for an advantage.

This is hilarious. Seriously - I laughed. You're making the assumption I play this way. That's a poor assumption at best. Perhaps instead of assuming you should ask HIWPI, because those two things don't always match up.

I'm looking at the actual rules and discussing the actual rules with no bias involved.

Drager wrote:

POKEYtheBIG wrote:
You have not shown where it applies to ruins. Ruins rule states you get a +1. If you are using the ruins cover save you use the rules for ruins; your area terrain never comes into play except for you that are trying to rule lawyer for an advantage.

Where does it say that in the ruins rules? I can't find it (due to my own incompetence) any chance you could give me a reference?

Under rules for GTG--as the rule applies to ruins and area as separate cover types.

Wait when did we have cover types?

I thought terrain and models give you cover "saves", not that there was a ruin type cover and area terrain type cover save.

Do explain further please?

*Ahem*

The rule actually says that "Models in area terrain receive a 5+ cover save, regardless of whether or not they are 25% obscured. Models that Go To ground in area terrain receive +2 to their cover save rather than +1" (BRB pg. 91. Emphasis mine). Note, it doesn't say "receive +2 to their area terrain cover save" just "their cover save". Ruins also do not provide a "ruins cover save" just a "cover save".


The distinction some are looking for in this thread simply isn't present because of GW's incompetence at defining their terms.

Drager wrote:

POKEYtheBIG wrote:
You have not shown where it applies to ruins. Ruins rule states you get a +1. If you are using the ruins cover save you use the rules for ruins; your area terrain never comes into play except for you that are trying to rule lawyer for an advantage.

Where does it say that in the ruins rules? I can't find it (due to my own incompetence) any chance you could give me a reference?

" Ruins are not a subcategory of area terrain in 6th ed, unlike 5th. Ruins are solid terrain offering 4+ cover. And IF they have a base, that base is also area terrain. Area terrain, in 6th, is a defined flat area of terrain (with raised elements) which grants non-vehicle models in the area a 5+ save. This 5+ save can be improved by 2 pips by Going to Ground in it, reaching a 3+ cover save. If a model is instead physically obscured by the raised elements of a Ruin, they can claim a 4+ cover save; but this is not coming from Area Terrain, and thus if you GtG with it, you still only get a 3+ cover save (all examples assuming no other stacking special rules like Stealth).

Arguments that the +2 can be applied to other cover saves than the 5+ from area ignore the context of that provision. "

Paraphrasing


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
*Ahem*

The rule actually says that "Models in area terrain receive a 5+ cover save, regardless of whether or not they are 25% obscured. Models that Go To ground in area terrain receive +2 to their cover save rather than +1" (BRB pg. 91. Emphasis mine). Note, it doesn't say "receive +2 to their area terrain cover save" just "their cover save". Ruins also do not provide a "ruins cover save" just a "cover save".


The distinction some are looking for in this thread simply isn't present because of GW's incompetence at defining their terms.

Yep, so if the model is 90% obscured by the ruins but ARE still in the area terrain they get a 5+ save lowered to 3+ if they GTG

osirisx69 wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Once again, taking a ruins cover save doesn't mean that you have ceased to be going to ground in area terrain. Rigeld is right in calling this a blatant misrepresentation of the rules.

Are you in ruins------> circle yes or no
Are you in area terrain-----> circle yes or no.
The ruins are ruins and the area terrain is area terrain. They are not the same. So the flow chart would look like this.

If you answered yes to ruins and gtg then you are +3 save.
If you answered no to ruins and you gtg then it is 6+ save.
If you answered yes to area terrain and gtg then its a 3+ save.
If you answered no to area terrain its a 6+ save.

This is paraphrasing flow chart from the BRB

And if I am both obscured by ruins and in area terrain?

 pizzaguardian wrote:
Wait when did we have cover types?

I thought terrain and models give you cover "saves", not that there was a ruin type cover and area terrain type cover save.

Do explain further please?

[MOD EDIT - Rule #1, please. - Alpharius]

 PrinceRaven wrote:

osirisx69 wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Once again, taking a ruins cover save doesn't mean that you have ceased to be going to ground in area terrain. Rigeld is right in calling this a blatant misrepresentation of the rules.

Are you in ruins------> circle yes or no
Are you in area terrain-----> circle yes or no.
The ruins are ruins and the area terrain is area terrain. They are not the same. So the flow chart would look like this.

If you answered yes to ruins and gtg then you are +3 save.
If you answered no to ruins and you gtg then it is 6+ save.
If you answered yes to area terrain and gtg then its a 3+ save.
If you answered no to area terrain its a 6+ save.

This is paraphrasing flow chart from the BRB

And if I am both obscured by ruins and in area terrain?

I answered that in the post above.